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Old 2018-10-04, 09:15   Link #1001
Sixth
Hu Tao
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Just when I thought S2 is bad, S3 proved me wrong.

Well, for me S3 is just 5/10.

Season 1 remains the best. It has the best finale and best fight.
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Old 2018-10-04, 09:31   Link #1002
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Ainz is an evil overlord, who is taking over the world.
That's kinda the premise of the whole damn thing, nobody is surprised about that.
Problems start when people start arguing that Ainz is actually the good guy, he is not, he is the villain.

He has his virtues, politeness, hard worker, compassion to those who serve him, keeps his word (kinda, sorta, mostly, usually, if not too inconvenient), and so on, but he is not the good guy, and the only reason he is planning to do any good, is to aggrandize himself and his old friends.
An argument can be made that, if/when Ainz takes over the world, the world will be a lot better place for quite a lot of people.
But argument that Ainz is a noble hero is, quite honestly, a non starter and misguided at best.
Usually, we judge people by their actions, not their intentions. If a person can make the world into a much better place when the previous one, will people see him as a hero or a villain? The thing is, even IRL, we have no way to know if the most exalted heroes in history really really had the most noble intentions in their mind when they conducted their heroic deeds.
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Old 2018-10-04, 09:57   Link #1003
Sixth
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
Usually, we judge people by their actions, not their intentions. If a person can make the world into a much better place when the previous one, will people see him as a hero or a villain? The thing is, even IRL, we have no way to know if the most exalted heroes in history really really had the most noble intentions in their mind when they conducted their heroic deeds.
But we all know Ainz's evil deeds. That is what mattered in this thread.
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Old 2018-10-04, 10:02   Link #1004
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Originally Posted by Sixth View Post
But we all know Ainz's evil deeds. That is what mattered in this thread.
Those so-called "evil deeds" are debatable. There are too many factors to argue if they are really evil or not. For example, if an act that looks cruel at first, but benefits everyone at the end, is it good or evil?
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Old 2018-10-04, 11:39   Link #1005
Metaneo
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
Those so-called "evil deeds" are debatable. There are too many factors to argue if they are really evil or not. For example, if an act that looks cruel at first, but benefits everyone at the end, is it good or evil?
Slaughtering 100k innocent people because you dont know what to do with them, and not just releasing them because it would ruin your image is pretty evil.
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Old 2018-10-04, 12:06   Link #1006
eiyuuou
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
If you really think that then you misunderstand the whole argument. Most of the outcry is because some people claiming Ainz is somehow a good guy. People weren't saying anything about humans doing evil things because we all know it's evil and nobody contested that. We're not complaining that Ainz isn't acting as a virtuous hero. Most people here are actually OKAY with Ainz being evil, it's that kind of show after all. Some of us would even root gleefully when he's being awesomely evil. But we know it's evil and we're not trying to sugar coat anything he does with some neutral-morality and "he's-not-human-so-doesn't-count" bullshit.
you are dead wrong. why do you think this morality issue only blew up in S3?
the reason it went into the morality farce is because people are demanding ainz to act "morally right"
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Old 2018-10-04, 12:20   Link #1007
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Originally Posted by eiyuuou View Post
you are dead wrong. why do you think this morality issue only blew up in S3?
the reason it went into the morality farce is because people are demanding ainz to act "morally right"
No one is demanding Ainz to act morally, we all knew he was evil from the get go. The issue arose with some people insisting Ainz was in the right for all the evil things he was doing.
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Old 2018-10-04, 15:49   Link #1008
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
No one is demanding Ainz to act morally, we all knew he was evil from the get go. The issue arose with some people insisting Ainz was in the right for all the evil things he was doing.
Ainz doesn't need to be right, he just need to be BETTER.

There are many things Ainz does wrong, but there are two notable improvements he bring into the world;
1. He sees absolutely everyone as equals. Equally worthless, yes, but equal none the less.
2. More importantly, he doesn't see himself as inherently superior. This is more blatant in future volumes, but I hope i am allowed to say that Ainz is prepared to submit himself to servitude if he ends up meeting an enemy too strong for him. That he is fully knowing his power is the only thing keeping him on top. That there was no moral right at all for him to be above others.

Ainz does not believe in Manifest Destiny. He is not a Chosen One, no one granted him the right to rule. What he gain, he can easily lose. His followers obviously worships him, but he doesn't let that affect his own views.

And what view is that? The view that you need power. Not power for its own sake, but you need power to have anything at all. Yes, you can use power to do evil, but you can do evil with anything. Power is what gives one to even have an opinion, to have a voice, to make decisions. To be righteous is fine and dandy, but without power to back it up, righteousness is just empty platitudes.

Thus, the last three seasons was Ainz doing what he needed to do to gain power. And he will continue to gain power. He will do many things that are not righteous in the process, but so long as no higher authority tried to stop him, he will continue. For as long as he is the strongest, he will not bend the knee. It isn't fair, but you need power to make things fair.
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Old 2018-10-04, 16:30   Link #1009
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Ainz doesn't need to be right, he just need to be BETTER.

There are many things Ainz does wrong, but there are two notable improvements he bring into the world;
1. He sees absolutely everyone as equals. Equally worthless, yes, but equal none the less.
2. More importantly, he doesn't see himself as inherently superior. This is more blatant in future volumes, but I hope i am allowed to say that Ainz is prepared to submit himself to servitude if he ends up meeting an enemy too strong for him. That he is fully knowing his power is the only thing keeping him on top. That there was no moral right at all for him to be above others.

Ainz does not believe in Manifest Destiny. He is not a Chosen One, no one granted him the right to rule. What he gain, he can easily lose. His followers obviously worships him, but he doesn't let that affect his own views.

And what view is that? The view that you need power. Not power for its own sake, but you need power to have anything at all. Yes, you can use power to do evil, but you can do evil with anything. Power is what gives one to even have an opinion, to have a voice, to make decisions. To be righteous is fine and dandy, but without power to back it up, righteousness is just empty platitudes.

Thus, the last three seasons was Ainz doing what he needed to do to gain power. And he will continue to gain power. He will do many things that are not righteous in the process, but so long as no higher authority tried to stop him, he will continue. For as long as he is the strongest, he will not bend the knee. It isn't fair, but you need power to make things fair.
I think you touched a very important point here that's been missed up until now and that is "personal power". Unlike our world, where no matter what, any human is still a fragile existence and as long as you can "cheat" your way through guards and "defensive measures", then a person, no matter how much "power" they possess, can still be eliminated, because that "power" is purely the commanding rights over others, but not actual "personal power". A super dictator that managed to conquer the world somehow might still fall at the hands of a lone wolf assassin because the dictator is still a normal human being, no matter how intelligent.

But Ainz, or perhaps the New World in itself, is completely different. Taking cases like the Re-Estize King or the Baharut Emperor aside, leaders like the Platinum Dragon Lord actually have personal power that's absolute. 99.99% of the world would be unable to "assassinate" the Platinum Dragon Lord, no matter how hard they tried, no matter how defenseless he might be at any moment. That's because of his personal power compared to the attacker's.

Even if Ainz took off all his equipment and just stood there doing nothing, Gazef's sword, while being able to bypass Ainz's high tier physical immunity and perhaps even slash resistence, is still only a "low-level magic weapon", i.e. doesn't really have much base damage in relation to high-level YGGDRASSIL weapons, and would still require him to slash away for who knows how long using several martial arts before he could seriously damage Ainz (who afaik has relatively low HP, but high enough def and magic def to tank several of Shalltear's attacks + his own Fallen Dawn without dying), and Ainz would probably still be OK at the point that Gazef reaches complete exhaustion from using regular attacks and martial arts. And of course "Ainz standing around" would never happen long enough for Ainz to actually take life-threatening damage.

So with that in mind, please note that our morals don't account for this "difference in personal power". On the opposite, actually. Religions go as far as to legitimize anything that's normally considered wrongdoing when a being who is considered a deity is responsible for it. And we people also idolize minor wrongdoings of strong people, like our comic superheroes.

Did anyone ever WANT superheroes to be treated normally and according to the law? Like fining them for collateral damage or trespassing? No, most likely not and that's simply "because they are superheroes" and on top of that, even if someone wanted to put one into prison for any larger damages they did, it COULD NOT BE ENFORCED.

It's clear that even in the hypothetical scenario where people with superior personal power exist in our own society, we appearently wouldn't want nor would be able to judge them "like we would judge any other normal person".
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Old 2018-10-04, 20:51   Link #1010
Fwarlord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
Slaughtering 100k innocent people because you dont know what to do with them, and not just releasing them because it would ruin your image is pretty evil.
It's only 10k people and releasing them is massive security risk, since they already knew about the existence of Nazarick and its location. Mind control and brainwashing are also out of consideration since those spells aren't omnipotent and can be broken out by strong will individuals or canceled out by other magic users. Ainz made that decision as a leader whose responsibility is to put his group/organization's best interest first and foremost.
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Old 2018-10-05, 00:26   Link #1011
Sixth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
Slaughtering 100k innocent people because you dont know what to do with them, and not just releasing them because it would ruin your image is pretty evil.
Well said. I am never the type who can agree with the notion such as "I killed this man because he is so pitiful (my standard). If anything, I should be praised for putting him out of misery (again my standard)."
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Old 2018-10-05, 04:52   Link #1012
moridin84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Quote:
No one is demanding Ainz to act morally, we all knew he was evil from the get go. The issue arose with some people insisting Ainz was in the right for all the evil things he was doing.
Ainz doesn't need to be right, he just need to be BETTER.

There are many things Ainz does wrong, but there are two notable improvements he bring into the world;
1. He sees absolutely everyone as equals. Equally worthless, yes, but equal none the less.
2. More importantly, he doesn't see himself as inherently superior. This is more blatant in future volumes, but I hope i am allowed to say that Ainz is prepared to submit himself to servitude if he ends up meeting an enemy too strong for him. That he is fully knowing his power is the only thing keeping him on top. That there was no moral right at all for him to be above others.

Ainz does not believe in Manifest Destiny. He is not a Chosen One, no one granted him the right to rule. What he gain, he can easily lose. His followers obviously worships him, but he doesn't let that affect his own views.

And what view is that? The view that you need power. Not power for its own sake, but you need power to have anything at all. Yes, you can use power to do evil, but you can do evil with anything. Power is what gives one to even have an opinion, to have a voice, to make decisions. To be righteous is fine and dandy, but without power to back it up, righteousness is just empty platitudes.

Thus, the last three seasons was Ainz doing what he needed to do to gain power. And he will continue to gain power. He will do many things that are not righteous in the process, but so long as no higher authority tried to stop him, he will continue. For as long as he is the strongest, he will not bend the knee. It isn't fair, but you need power to make things fair.
So you sound like you are disagreeing with the thing you quoted you haven't disagreed with it at all.

That Ainz is an evil villain.
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Old 2018-10-05, 05:45   Link #1013
Kuroageha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Ainz is an evil overlord, who is taking over the world.
That's kinda the premise of the whole damn thing, nobody is surprised about that.
Problems start when people start arguing that Ainz is actually the good guy, he is not, he is the villain.

He has his virtues, politeness, hard worker, compassion to those who serve him, keeps his word (kinda, sorta, mostly, usually, if not too inconvenient), and so on, but he is not the good guy, and the only reason he is planning to do any good, is to aggrandize himself and his old friends.
An argument can be made that, if/when Ainz takes over the world, the world will be a lot better place for quite a lot of people.
But argument that Ainz is a noble hero is, quite honestly, a non starter and misguided at best.
What I saw so far was:

"Ainz is the villain"
This is correct. And as the show portrays he isn't perfect doing that job.

"Ainz has a good side"
This is correct too, but some can't just accept this so they'll go into a debate to refute that and end pulling some mental gymnastics here and some fallacies there to "win" the argument making the whole thing look like there was only White and Black.
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Old 2018-10-05, 07:54   Link #1014
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
So you sound like you are disagreeing with the thing you quoted you haven't disagreed with it at all.

That Ainz is an evil villain.
He is the closet thing to a hero that NW has got.

That is, unless you think heroism means Human supremacy, the extermination of all non-humans, and legal enslavement of elves.

Because he is the only one actually making long term improvements to the continent.

Ainz is taking charge because somebody had to. The fact that the anime deliberately skipped portraying most of the horrible things that are happening in all these countries doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Ainz is the only hope for peace in the land. And i don't mean peace between humans; peace between ALL the races.
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Old 2018-10-05, 08:09   Link #1015
Sixth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
He is the closet thing to a hero that NW has got.

That is, unless you think heroism means Human supremacy, the extermination of all non-humans, and legal enslavement of elves.

Because he is the only one actually making long term improvements to the continent.

Ainz is taking charge because somebody had to. The fact that the anime deliberately skipped portraying most of the horrible things that are happening in all these countries doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Ainz is the only hope for peace in the land. And i don't mean peace between humans; peace between ALL the races.
With Demiurge as a part of the Ainz government?
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Old 2018-10-05, 08:22   Link #1016
kari-no-sugata II
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
He is the closet thing to a hero that NW has got.

That is, unless you think heroism means Human supremacy, the extermination of all non-humans, and legal enslavement of elves.

Because he is the only one actually making long term improvements to the continent.

Ainz is taking charge because somebody had to. The fact that the anime deliberately skipped portraying most of the horrible things that are happening in all these countries doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Ainz is the only hope for peace in the land. And i don't mean peace between humans; peace between ALL the races.
First thought that came to mind on reading this is: Oda Nobunaga.

Of course, it hasn't happened yet in Ainz's case, which is a problem I have some portrayals of Ainz: how reasonable is it to credit him with things he hasn't achieved yet?
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Old 2018-10-05, 09:08   Link #1017
Metaneo
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
He is the closet thing to a hero that NW has got.
Gazef, Climb, and Brain are far more heroic than Ainz. The Order of the Blue Rose are heroes. Just because they cant measure up to many of the lesser beings of Nazarick doesn't make them less of a hero.

What Ainz is, is power, and power does not make a hero. Power makes you powerful, what you do with that power determines if you are a hero.
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Old 2018-10-05, 10:16   Link #1018
Sixth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
Gazef, Climb, and Brain are far more heroic than Ainz. The Order of the Blue Rose are heroes. Just because they cant measure up to many of the lesser beings of Nazarick doesn't make them less of a hero.

What Ainz is, is power, and power does not make a hero. Power makes you powerful, what you do with that power determines if you are a hero.
and what kind of hero needs to cahoot with his own minions to gain the recognition from the public?
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Old 2018-10-05, 10:20   Link #1019
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
Of course, it hasn't happened yet in Ainz's case, which is a problem I have some portrayals of Ainz: how reasonable is it to credit him with things he hasn't achieved yet?
We can easily see Ainz has the will and the mean to achieve his agendas. Other than future players, I don't think there is anything that can stop his plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
Gazef, Climb, and Brain are far more heroic than Ainz. The Order of the Blue Rose are heroes.
What did they do to deserve the title "hero" anyway? One of them recently committed suicide because of his false sense of loyalty, one is a deluded kid who knows nothing about the world, let alone the liege he serves, another is a literal bandit who lived in cave where they kept females as sex slaves. The rest are biased and racist human supremacists who would attack anything non-human on sight just because of their race.
Quote:
Just because they cant measure up to many of the lesser beings of Nazarick doesn't make them less of a hero.

What Ainz is, is power, and power does not make a hero. Power makes you powerful, what you do with that power determines if you are a hero.
But does heroism holds any meaning if there is no power to enforce it? I mean do you see any hero epic where the hero is a weakling who can't do anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixth View Post
and what kind of hero needs to cahoot with his own minions to gain the recognition from the public?
Realistic heroes who are willing to use pragmatic methods to serve a greater good.
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Old 2018-10-05, 10:43   Link #1020
Kuroageha
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^
They're called martyrs when they're powerless .
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