What is the point of fansubbing?

[Chiibi]

There are just some shows out there that will NEVER be licensed, no doubt in my mind. A great deal of shoujo for example. Especially those of the early ninties.

[ScR3WiEuS]

i agree with tofu, really.
fansubbing is just a hobby for me. i like anime, i like the people, i like the process. it's not much different from a game. except that you put in a bit more intellectual effort than most games.
no reason to look for higher purposes.

[Koroku]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Not necessarily, though. You're assuming it's a pay service. If it was free to the end user (think cross marketing or unobtrusive web ads) AND out before the fansubs 'm not so sure you'd see it being pirated.

Toonami Jetstream is ripped and torrented. :s

And if a company were to try to do an online stream thing, they'd have to work with some of the "standards" that we see out there. Karaoke, typesetting, and the like. Yellow subs just wouldn't cut it.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Koroku

And if a company were to try to do an online stream thing, they'd have to work with some of the "standards" that we see out there. Karaoke, typesetting, and the like. Yellow subs just wouldn't cut it.

So the point of fansubbing is to make the least important things of a release out to be the most important things (and vice-versa). Got it.

[cyth]

You can monetize fansubs the same way you can monetize a blog. Presto, professionalism! *Ahem*

Originally Posted by False Dawn

So, has fansubbing maybe peaked and is going into decline, in the way that anime licensing companies seem to be doing?

No, but the fact remains that there are fewer groups subbing fewer shows than let's say 3-5 years ago. OK, maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. For some reason every decent show still gets fansubbed, however with the lack of established group brands it's kind of hard being reassured you're getting quality subbing.

But yes, there are fewer shows getting licensed every year and the industry is expected to shrink even further. 2-3 years ago every decent show was guaranteed to be picked up--ergo translated--by an American licensee. My recent observations of the industry have led me to believe that current anime content trends on the whole aren't as attractive to your average North American anime consumer as they were ten years ago. The market is flooded with box set rereleases, leaving no room for newer titles. Mainstream consumers are only looking toward English dubs, but having mostly niche titles to work with, producing dubs is near financial suicide. On the other hand, no dub means far less sales. This all wouldn't be an issue if anime were still popular among the pierced mainstream, but the fad is now over. FUNimation suggests they will be hopping on only the most popular properties (meaning "screw you, niche"), Geneon USA is out, ADV will soon be out, BV USA is trying their best to cash on the most rabid of fans from the fansub/RAW demographic, but without popular niche content choices their approach might be futile as well (I'm planning on picking up their True Tears because it's good). Haruhi was like the most hyped up niche show of 2006, but random status reports suggest that it didn't sell all that well in the U.S.
Commercially available anime will always be present in North America, it's just that Americans will be seeing far less in near future. So now we have a bunch of upcoming titles that will not get licensed no matter what, so I honestly don't understand this idea that fansubbing is without any common goal, that it has fulfilled its purpose. It obviously hasn't because "fans", or should I say consumers, continue to just leech fansubs and don't indulge in buying official releases and merchandise. Obviously they have valid reasons why they shouldn't, but this is where the industry has failed, this is where fansubbing has failed: We failed to produce educated, mature fans that would've been willing to invest more money into anime than their other leisure pastimes.

In the past eight years or so there hasn't been a better time to do fansubbing than now. Niche shows of today need our attention more than ever, and no way in hell is the industry picking up any of those; they'll be going after little children, with One Piece and the likes.

[False Dawn]

Originally Posted by Toua

So now we have a bunch of upcoming titles that will not get licensed no matter what, so I honestly don't understand this idea that fansubbing is without any common goal, that it has fulfilled its purpose. It obviously hasn't because "fans", or should I say consumers, continue to just leech fansubs and don't indulge in buying official releases and mechandise.

Perhaps what I said was wrong then. Perhaps, the original goal of fansubbing that seems to be bandied about whenever someone suggests there's an ethical side to the whole process -- perhaps that did succeed, that it achieved what it set out to do. And yet, at the same time, it's now shown to have had a horrible side-effect in which the scene has created "fanboys" who are impatient and who don't care about paying for their entertainment, which has actually ironically had an adverse effect on the original aim of fansubbing.

Maybe it's a case of "too much of a good thing"? As you say, the anime market in the States is saturated, but then I've also felt that about the fansubbing scene of recent. It seems that a large number of series get subbed (and oversubbed) for no particular reason other than nobody else is subbing them -- I know that I've watched a lot of chaff that I wouldn't normally have watched, and it's rare that I get the same feeling now about an anime series that I would have had in the past. But I'm straying from the topic now.

And I agree that DVD turnarounds for American releases are somewhat ridiculous (same with manga), and that a lot of business is lost through that, more than anything really. Thing is, it would be perfectly easy to solve if only American companies worked more closely with Japanese companies. At the moment, it feels like they're two separate entities that only converse when one is selling something to the other.

Though, maybe I'm just being idealistic and hoping that all the problems of the fansubbing world and the anime marketing world (whatever they may actually be) can actually be solved.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by bayoab

professional ethics

fansubbing: serious business

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

The industry, both in the US and Japan, needs to come up with systems to make traditional fansubbing obsolete and to monetize the fanbase who watch them. They've so far failed on all fronts so far to do this and have made next to zero effort to reach out to the fansub scene in this regard.
(...)
Arguing whether it is ethical or not to continue as we've been doing is a moot point. There have been "vulture subbers" picking up dropped shows going back to the early 1990s. The scene will not change in any substantial way. The ball is in the industry's court to address this.

Head on the nail, I couldn't have said it better myself. What jfs says about things being fair or not fair does not seem relevant to me; the world is not fair and there's no reason the world's governments (much less individuals such as ourselves) should support a certain industry's obviously faulty business model by artificial means.

[Mentar]

I'll try to bring a slightly different perspective into this first, maybe it will help to make my answer a bit more easily understandable.

What really counts here is how the anime community was "raised": Anime was a hobby which you generally got "for free" right from the start. Be it some TV airing you happened to watch. Or those VHS tapes that the games store owner copied for you for materials and a 2$ cover charge per tape. You started browsing mangas. And some day, by own discovery or a friend, you were introduced to digital subs, which were initially distributed mainly by CDs, and later over the internet. Finally, the convenience topped out with the advent of bittorrent and the usual sites which indexed all releases. Getting and watching anime (be it subbed or dubbed, doesn't really matter) was something you could always do, and always do essentially FOR FREE. If you were affluent enough, you bought DVDs, mangas, CDs and whatnot of those shows you really wanted to own, but in general, it mostly felt like an extra. You were always aware of the fact that you could get it for free if you really wanted.

I'm not saying that this is how everyone grew up to be an anime/manga fan, but I'd say that this would be typical for the clear majority of fans.

And to finally return to the initial questions: Fansubbers, just like DVD-rippers, scanlators, scanners, OST-rippers, Game-patch-developers all _enable_ this lifestyle which has developed over the years.

This is their real function, IMHO. They enable(d) the anime community worldwide to pursue their hobby. And this is also why the initiative to "stop" fansubbing to rescue R1 labels finds so little traction: Many people (me included) really don't care much about R1 releases. I will buy them for the shows I like, but they serve no important function for my daily anime life. They're an extra, a way for me to chip in some cash to make me feel better, since I supported a work I appreciated. But that's it.

If you ask me what my _personal_ motivation is: To give back to the community a bit of what I took from it in the beginning: A nice hobby, with really good entertainment value. And besides, it's rewarding to see happy people having fun with the releases.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by False Dawn

Really? There are very few "good" shows that remain unlicensed after they've aired. Admittedly, they might not be licensed straight away, but they become licensed over time. Look at Air, for example. I can only think of a handful of decent series that have finished up to a year ago that haven't been licensed.

Of course, it's impossible to disprove that shows will never be licensed. Monster might be licensed in 2010, 2020, or 3001 as far as we now.

But realistically speaking, there was a short time period not long ago when a lot of stuff was licencend left and right but that's over now. Looking at my ever-userful list in my sig (reminds me that I should make an update) and my current Top 10: Licenced are so far are only Seirei no Moribito ( but for reasons we all know I wouldn't expect a "legal opportunity to buy it") and Genshiken 2 (which is a sequel and thus less risky than new stuff).

Now here's what I would put my money on: Ghost Hound will get licenced I guess, and maybe Lovely Complex (although it's shoujo) or Dennou Coil (although kids' stuff in the eyes of the casual buyer). I see bleak for the rest for one reason or the other: Minami-Ke, Potemayo, Kaiji, Ooedo Rocket, Moyashimon. Akagi hasn't been licenced, so why should they do Kaiji? Or a story about bacteria?

I won't be right in all these cases but I assume 5 out of 10 shows to be be officially available in 2009.

Of course there is always a legal opportunity to buy a series when you liked what you saw: buy it in Japan and your concience is clear. I spend more money that way than by sitting on my ass, waiting for licences.

Originally Posted by Toua

No, but the fact remains that there are fewer groups subbing fewer shows than let's say 3-5 years ago.

Where do you get that wisdom from? As for your first claim: I wouldn't know if there were twice as much or half as much groups in 2004, say, and the number wouldn't mean anything anyway. I have a database with shows I'd like to see subbed but never where though, and there haven't been more entries in 2007 than 2004. Rather less.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'm not saying that this is how everyone grew up to be an anime/manga fan, but I'd say that this would be typical for the clear majority of fans.

Nah, that's not your typical fan, that's your typical consumer. You and me who are also paying customers may have been around for years, but whole generations of "fans" get into anime for only a few, then quit. These are the anime consumers who don't care either way as long as they have something to watch (this explains such high YouTube download #). Yes, fansubbing panders to such folks, but they are the result of failed "culling" strategies and fan solicitation. If fansubbing disappeared over night, most of them wouldn't cry themselves to sleep, they would just start downloading Avatar: The Last Airbender. Fans, however, would.

@Slice of Life: I can't believe I wrote that. Was it really that late? ^^; What I meant to say was that on the whole there is less relevant releases. I don't know about you, but I feel pretty confident about downloading from Eclipse & SS. There were more groups like that in the past. Anime-Keep, Anime Empire, AnimeForever Fansubs, Anime Kraze, AnimeONE. Some of those were doing 5-10 series a season. And what do we have today? Shinsen-Subs and the already mentioned. With Ay***, Ny**** and the likes you really don't know what you're getting.

[sangofe]

Originally Posted by Toua

Niche shows of today need our attention more than ever, and no way in hell is the industry picking up any of those; they'll be going after little children, with One Piece and the likes.

You SO nailed it!
But still... many "niche" animes don't get subbed because either:
# the fansubbers don't like older shows
# they don't get enough attention: dl numbers, and potentional new staff.

So we still end up with oversubbing for new stuff, and forgotten good shows here and there.

[cyth]

By "niche" I mean shows that air late after midnight and generally shows that concern the Japanese fandom (Gundam etc.). These are new shows as well.

I need to start writing footnotes on my vocabulary. ^^;

[dj_tjerk]

I don't like the idea of buying R1's to support my favourite anime, but i'm still searching for that big "Donate" button i can click to donate some money to the animators/directors/manga-artist of the anime/manga to show my appreciation for their work and to motivate them to create even more QUALITY^TM shows/stories/animation.

Fansubbing for me is mainly.. work though >_> Depends on the job really, timing = easy (it's done when you're done), typesetting (don't kill me for mentioning that word) = a bitch (you can continue tweaking till you're dead).

[edogawaconan]

Originally Posted by dj_tjerk

I don't like the idea of buying R1's to support my favourite anime, but i'm still searching for that big "Donate" button i can click to donate some money to the animators/directors/manga-artist of the anime/manga to show my appreciation for their work and to motivate them to create even more QUALITY^TM shows/stories/animation.

There're R2 DVDs
which IMO have better value than R1 parts (and more expensive, lol )

[dj_tjerk]

Originally Posted by edogawaconan

There're R2 DVDs
which IMO have better value than R1 parts (and more expensive, lol )

Most money is wasted on transport costs (or even production/distribution costs) then :P As in.. a small part reaches the creators, and i donno if it even does (/me points to writers' strike in USA)

[sangofe]

Originally Posted by Toua

By "niche" I mean shows that air late after midnight and generally shows that concern the Japanese fandom (Gundam etc.). These are new shows as well.

I need to start writing footnotes on my vocabulary. ^^;

Okay, but I was talking about many of the mentioned animes in this thread:
http://yoroshiku-fansubs.com/forums/...p?showtopic=54

[False Dawn]

Mentar makes some good points. I think a good reason why anime isn't exactly popular (or even a widely known niche) in my country is because there's no television coverage. This is admittedly changing in the last few years, what with Hayao Miyazaki getting cinema releases with Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle, but it's rare. Most of the anime broadcast in this country aren't on the mainstream channels (and when they are, they're shown at either midday or 1am, regardless of content), and it can actually be found on the kids' channels like Cartoon Network and Jetix, which aren't really channels that erstwhile fans will be browsing.

So, in a sense, I guess Mentar is right - fansubbing is used to get a free fix that can't be provided by the industry that seems to focus solely on DVD releases that are generally more expensive than American/British equivalents (in the UK, boxsets of anime are significantly more expensive than say, Heroes S1).

Then, in summary, does that mean fansubbing is filling in the gaps left by the industry? That fansubbing should be treated as an equivalent for TV because the anime licensors haven't fully utilised this medium?

Does this mean that fansubbing would significantly diminish if companies decided to utilise television? Tofu doesn't believe that fansubbing will ever die as such, but if the industry made itself more widely available, would it then be a case of fansubbing having a much smaller fanbase as it does more truly "niche" titles (like Moyashimon, etc)?

[Vagrant0]

The issue is not purely about cost and conveiniance, it is also about quality. Often the DvDs which are for sale do not have things translated very well, and are often missing those little cultural notations which several subgroups tend to include. Sure, there are still a few sub groups who get things wrong throughout the series, but getting things wrong, and never fixing them seems to be more common among companies which release for sales. Now one can argue if such features add or take away from the anime, but over the course of time, the value of good translation and cultural notations allows for a greater understanding and enjoyment of the media.

Rather than look at it from some sort of business prespective, it should be viewed as a form of art. Subbers try to make (or atleast should) sure that what is wanted is conveyed properly for maximum enjoyment. Whereas companies are more concerned about just producing something which can be fed to enough people to make them money.

That said, companies have made some big mistakes in the west, which have cost them markets. If they hadn't focused primarily on childrens shows until 2000 or so, things would probably be different. It's that reafirmation that "animation is for kids" thing that prevented adult and teen markets from being exploited. This is an issue since their only real market at this point is the same people who are also downloading anime, rather than someone who just walks in the store looking to buy a good series (the same way people seem to buy movies or books).

[Dark Shikari]

Originally Posted by Vagrant0

The issue is not purely about cost and conveiniance, it is also about quality. Often the DvDs which are for sale do not have things translated very well, and are often missing those little cultural notations which several subgroups tend to include.

Yeah, like:





Yes, I agree of course, though every once in a while those translator's notes end up worse than none at all.

[cyth]

For the record, the screenshot above was taken from a fansub.