Campione!(カンピオーネ!) [Light Novel]

[Feng Lengshun]

I think that's not exactly one ability... though it is pretty much one incarnation if a bit forceful on that.

On Kojou being non-tactical is more real... well, being tactical isn't entirely dependent on age. What does however, is strategy. In fact, I would argue that teenagers has better tactical capability than adults by virtue of them being okay with taking more risks than adults. Now, strategizing though... teenagers aren't known for their ability to think of the long term and organizing skill.

[RpR1337]

Oh God, Oh God, Oh GOD, I wish I read the forum a bit more. Joining the conversation at this late a time is hard in and of itself, but having actually too much to say and trying not to make a wall of text (which I obviously will not, since I like walls of text too much to do so) makes it even harder.

Feng-sensei, we're actually running around in the same circle with all this "character development" stuff. People want sex scenes because they want a decisive happening, and can relate to that creating the atmosphere. I can relate to that as well, actually. It's simply the next logical step. Well, with DxD, there's also the thing about Rias' superiority, which won't make it with "I'm first!" forever. I'm guessing that no matter how far that series will go, he won't lay a hand on the other girls at least until they get married (which will probably be a quick and showdown-style decision, seeing as they have a flaxen-haired, and a silver-haired demon on the opposing team). Similarly, I doubt that the girls can even get a decent kiss before he gets laid with Rias. That's how I see it. Even though Rias, her family, and the entire devil race are fine with it, there's still an order to things (obviously decided by Rias' horrible complexes and wavering self-confidence, which stand in stark contrast to her painfully obvious lead role). So, what I'm saying is, since Azazel alredy wants to make bets on how many children Ise will have, it's totally certain what kind of a situation we will have in the end. But that doesn't make it alright, in the sense that until Rias gets what she wants, the way she wants it, she'll be jealous, and that's about it. (Please exclude Asia from the fray of women scurrying for a single man's attention. She's special, since she broke out of the deepest pits of the hell that is the "harem-protagonist friendzone", for which a proper name would be "The inner circle of the friendzone - the Unrelated-by-blood Sibling Containment Area".)

As for Campione! - I still think the de-fanging shizz isn't business. Man, that shit doesn't fly. As stated somewhere in the abyss back in the day, by someone I don't even remember (if you read this, I'm seriously sorry!), "Godou forgets that he's the most kickass when he's forcefully removed from his self-limitations". That's about right, I guess. The biggest question there really is about him (well, maybe in a bit of a philosophical sense) - is the part where he struggles for victory a part of his personality, or not? Because I think that if it is (and I do think that it is), then all this "self-imposed vow of chastity" is BS. Why would I say that?
Firstly, his victory rush is part of his personality. Not as a Campione, but as a person. Well before he slew a God, he was alredy a baseball player with average stats and specks, as he himself said, who struggled to the point where he found the kind of ducktape that can cover all the holes where he lacked (I think Asuka explained it, saying he was a shrewd and tricky player who employed mental warfare, taunts and careful observation, thereby eliminating a more capable opponent flawlessly as a baseball player. It's the same as his looks - a "dime in a dozen", says he and some girls who aren't too deep into him to see the risks, and in some sense, he's "a dime in a dozen, but without a single scratch or dent, to the point of being almost too unnatural, which even though makes him part of a decently average circle of people, also obviously detains him from the same circle at the same time", implied Asuka.), which means ~ sorry for the long intermission ~ that he alredy was a capable fighter mentally. To further imply that, take the opinion of Yinghua, who told Asherah that Campiones were abnormal monsters to begin with, they just got the "detectable and more easily designated" traits to go with that subtle personality flaw. So, long story short, he's a vicory maniac not as a Campione, but as a human being.
If we take that as a part of his personality, the things about his grandfather are the same. It's part of his personality that he's an inter-galactic heartbreaking criminal, so to speak. That can't even be argued. It's clear as day.
So, where do we stand after all that - Godou relishes in one part of his personality, albeit to different levels (When in human mode, he never gives up on victory, and seeks it in a subtle and almost mild manner, which would make that state akin to a sleeping volcano which has its share of magma flowing around, and in Campione mode, he just removes the lid of the bottle. You take my meaning, I guess.), while completely denies the other. Or at least tries, but fails miserably more and more as the story progresses. It's like an elongated siege where his carefully built walls are being torn down by the ladies. It's a fun and lovely skit, if I may say so myself.

And the grand conclusion would be - denying your own personality (or even parts of it) in a battle-styled japanese artwork is a one way ticket to get flushed down the toilet. Same as what Azazel told Koneko and Akeno. Yup, you have parts you don't like about yourself. Want to get stronger? Then get over it. Burying it will never help you reach your goals. I see the same trouble with Godou, and that's why I say that (even if not totally, at least to some degree) catering to his own innermost desires would make him stronger instead of weaker.

With that done, some smaller stuff that's not been said:

1. KUDOS FOR LILIANA, without any care for time, place, situation, etc etc. I don't bother myself with details.
2. Please don't get different series mixed up. Remember the crossover of Accel World and SAO? Never truly works. So many opportunities and thoughts, wishes and dreams, that if even one doesn't make it, you'll feel that you've been tricked. It's better to be a nihilist in that regard (because while the optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the pessimist sees the dark in the tunnel, the realist sees the approaching train, and the train driver sees three idiots standing around on the rails).
3. We're talking shonen fight - power level = drive.
Ise: the more boobs, the more power. The more danger to a world filled with soft and fragrant valleys of bliss (call it cleavage, if you want, but that's way more artistic, isn't it? ), the more pumped up he gets. Go watch S2E12, if you don't get my meaning. The more abnormal and perverted the situation is, the more abnormal and perverted the idiot gets. Golden.
Godou: the level of complication of obtaining victory, and the slimness of chances goes as far as his dedication. Well, maybe calling it dedication isn't the best to do. Let's say he can get more pumped. The more he has to lose, the wilder he's going to claw and bite himself to emerge victorious. He's that kind of guy. Golden.
4. Many old short stories suck. Many new short stories rule. A mix between the two is acceptable, but going too far for sales doesn't generate consumer goodwill.
5. Gimme moar Lancelot. As a rare occasion (not being one of that particular circle myself), I'm actually in the "blonde lovers' faction" this time.
6. And finally, Lived-han. We talked about this (dunno which thread it was). Don't give an epic climax seconds, and think about how it played out. All I can say to support that is:
Dragon BLOL, the last 10 seconds of Namek.

Cheers! (Finally back in action. I'll really try to follow the forum more closely to avoid writing this much in a single post ever again.)

[GodSoul]

I've been watching the blue flames of volume 16, has sword between the flames, not a new authority,But, blue flames and an authority arrows perseus,Now wait to see

or it could be perhaps Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi + [swords]

[Hokoga]

Originally Posted by RpR1337

Spoiler for RpR1337's Wall Of Text!:

Oh God, Oh God, Oh GOD, I wish I read the forum a bit more. Joining the conversation at this late a time is hard in and of itself, but having actually too much to say and trying not to make a wall of text (which I obviously will not, since I like walls of text too much to do so) makes it even harder.

Feng-sensei, we're actually running around in the same circle with all this "character development" stuff. People want sex scenes because they want a decisive happening, and can relate to that creating the atmosphere. I can relate to that as well, actually. It's simply the next logical step. Well, with DxD, there's also the thing about Rias' superiority, which won't make it with "I'm first!" forever. I'm guessing that no matter how far that series will go, he won't lay a hand on the other girls at least until they get married (which will probably be a quick and showdown-style decision, seeing as they have a flaxen-haired, and a silver-haired demon on the opposing team). Similarly, I doubt that the girls can even get a decent kiss before he gets laid with Rias. That's how I see it. Even though Rias, her family, and the entire devil race are fine with it, there's still an order to things (obviously decided by Rias' horrible complexes and wavering self-confidence, which stand in stark contrast to her painfully obvious lead role). So, what I'm saying is, since Azazel alredy wants to make bets on how many children Ise will have, it's totally certain what kind of a situation we will have in the end. But that doesn't make it alright, in the sense that until Rias gets what she wants, the way she wants it, she'll be jealous, and that's about it. (Please exclude Asia from the fray of women scurrying for a single man's attention. She's special, since she broke out of the deepest pits of the hell that is the "harem-protagonist friendzone", for which a proper name would be "The inner circle of the friendzone - the Unrelated-by-blood Sibling Containment Area".)

As for Campione! - I still think the de-fanging shizz isn't business. Man, that shit doesn't fly. As stated somewhere in the abyss back in the day, by someone I don't even remember (if you read this, I'm seriously sorry!), "Godou forgets that he's the most kickass when he's forcefully removed from his self-limitations". That's about right, I guess. The biggest question there really is about him (well, maybe in a bit of a philosophical sense) - is the part where he struggles for victory a part of his personality, or not? Because I think that if it is (and I do think that it is), then all this "self-imposed vow of chastity" is BS. Why would I say that?
Firstly, his victory rush is part of his personality. Not as a Campione, but as a person. Well before he slew a God, he was alredy a baseball player with average stats and specks, as he himself said, who struggled to the point where he found the kind of ducktape that can cover all the holes where he lacked (I think Asuka explained it, saying he was a shrewd and tricky player who employed mental warfare, taunts and careful observation, thereby eliminating a more capable opponent flawlessly as a baseball player. It's the same as his looks - a "dime in a dozen", says he and some girls who aren't too deep into him to see the risks, and in some sense, he's "a dime in a dozen, but without a single scratch or dent, to the point of being almost too unnatural, which even though makes him part of a decently average circle of people, also obviously detains him from the same circle at the same time", implied Asuka.), which means ~ sorry for the long intermission ~ that he alredy was a capable fighter mentally. To further imply that, take the opinion of Yinghua, who told Asherah that Campiones were abnormal monsters to begin with, they just got the "detectable and more easily designated" traits to go with that subtle personality flaw. So, long story short, he's a vicory maniac not as a Campione, but as a human being.
If we take that as a part of his personality, the things about his grandfather are the same. It's part of his personality that he's an inter-galactic heartbreaking criminal, so to speak. That can't even be argued. It's clear as day.
So, where do we stand after all that - Godou relishes in one part of his personality, albeit to different levels (When in human mode, he never gives up on victory, and seeks it in a subtle and almost mild manner, which would make that state akin to a sleeping volcano which has its share of magma flowing around, and in Campione mode, he just removes the lid of the bottle. You take my meaning, I guess.), while completely denies the other. Or at least tries, but fails miserably more and more as the story progresses. It's like an elongated siege where his carefully built walls are being torn down by the ladies. It's a fun and lovely skit, if I may say so myself.

And the grand conclusion would be - denying your own personality (or even parts of it) in a battle-styled japanese artwork is a one way ticket to get flushed down the toilet. Same as what Azazel told Koneko and Akeno. Yup, you have parts you don't like about yourself. Want to get stronger? Then get over it. Burying it will never help you reach your goals. I see the same trouble with Godou, and that's why I say that (even if not totally, at least to some degree) catering to his own innermost desires would make him stronger instead of weaker.

With that done, some smaller stuff that's not been said:

1. KUDOS FOR LILIANA, without any care for time, place, situation, etc etc. I don't bother myself with details.
2. Please don't get different series mixed up. Remember the crossover of Accel World and SAO? Never truly works. So many opportunities and thoughts, wishes and dreams, that if even one doesn't make it, you'll feel that you've been tricked. It's better to be a nihilist in that regard (because while the optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the pessimist sees the dark in the tunnel, the realist sees the approaching train, and the train driver sees three idiots standing around on the rails).
3. We're talking shonen fight - power level = drive.
Ise: the more boobs, the more power. The more danger to a world filled with soft and fragrant valleys of bliss (call it cleavage, if you want, but that's way more artistic, isn't it? ), the more pumped up he gets. Go watch S2E12, if you don't get my meaning. The more abnormal and perverted the situation is, the more abnormal and perverted the idiot gets. Golden.
Godou: the level of complication of obtaining victory, and the slimness of chances goes as far as his dedication. Well, maybe calling it dedication isn't the best to do. Let's say he can get more pumped. The more he has to lose, the wilder he's going to claw and bite himself to emerge victorious. He's that kind of guy. Golden.
4. Many old short stories suck. Many new short stories rule. A mix between the two is acceptable, but going too far for sales doesn't generate consumer goodwill.
5. Gimme moar Lancelot. As a rare occasion (not being one of that particular circle myself), I'm actually in the "blonde lovers' faction" this time.
6. And finally, Lived-han. We talked about this (dunno which thread it was). Don't give an epic climax seconds, and think about how it played out. All I can say to support that is:
Dragon BLOL, the last 10 seconds of Namek.

Cheers! (Finally back in action. I'll really try to follow the forum more closely to avoid writing this much in a single post ever again.)

MY GOD, how long did it take you to write this?

[Feng Lengshun]

Originally Posted by RpR1337

~snip~

Dude, use spoilers. That would make things easier to read. Also, paragraphs and line break is a thing. Learn how to use it.

Sex is, in the grand scheme of the story, not important. I mean, what would having sex make anything different anyway? It's how you write the story and character developments that matters. For all intent and purpose, you can usually remove sex from any story (case to the point, the many eroge port to console). There are a few that makes it integral to the story (Eroninja, Monster Girl Saga, and Katawa Shoujo) and those are the examples of how usage of sex in the story should be. It all goes back to the litmus test of "Will this effects the plot?"

Spoiler for On Godou:

"Godou is the most kickass when he's removing his inhibitions," but those are after going through either mindset changes (from casual to battle) and pseudo-self-hypnosis (Youth and Berserk curse). Basically, it's like saying that a guy is more cool when he's drunk/high on drugs, because that's what it's like for Godou. He's not thinking straight at those moments, not fully remembering his beliefs, not fully conscious, and not thinking of consequences. "Fuck this shit" might sounds cool in stories, but in actuality, you really don't want to say that because one way or another, it indicates that something wrong. Either with the situation, the actions involved, or the person who is involved in the situation.

Also, you have to consider that Campiones aren't proper human beings and if it weren't for their powers, they can't act the way they do. For Godou who actually lives in the mundane world, it's normal that he's still being an actual person instead of merely an idea that breathes.

The 'idea' may have a name. The 'idea' may have a body. It may talk, walk, act, plan, think, and any number of other human criteria, but all that is misleading. All it is is an 'idea'. Something abstract, illusory. It's removed from the boundary line, to such an extent that it's impossible to call it human at all.

You can't interact with others like that. So like it or not, Godou must NOT remove his restrictions fully, because then, he can't be called human anymore. Transcendent or Alien, it doesn't matter, but you can't live with a human except as human. And he, you know, has lovers. So like it or not, he has to remain as humane as possible.

Saying "get over it" isn't easy. God, do you know how hard it is to change yourself? You don't magically change yourself in a single event like how many story portrays, that's wrong. Do you know how many years it can take someone shy to become confident to speak with women? It can take three years. That example came from David Z. aka Spaztique who, if you see his tumblr and journals, is the opposite of the image. And it takes him three years, hundreds of practices, and a bunch of readings to get there. There's a reason why they say that "Mastering a thing requires 1000 hours," and mastering yourself is no exception. That's why, instead of changing, we usually learn to control ourselves. Someone who hates men could learn to control it and little by little until it doesn't take effort anymore it would be when you have changed.

With that said, it might have been stupid of me trying to apply real life logic and principles on a work of fiction. Okay, fine. But see, in a story, a characters has certain values in them. And there are layers to those. The deeper within they are, the harder it is to change them. From what I see, this guy genuinely wants to be normal, so you'll have to go through a lot of shits for the guy to finally change. To me, he's like an alcoholic (victory seeking womanizer) who genuinely wants to get cured of his addiction (be normal). He likes alcohols, but knows that it's not good. So the first step is that he has to admit that he is an alcoholic, then find a certain balance for him to get peace, either through compromise or through complete therapy.

Honestly, I felt bad for the guy, his wish wasn't wrong at all but everyone and everything keeps on pointing him to just go with his desires. Seriously dude, catering to your flaws as person does not make you a better person. It makes you a worse person. You first admit it, control it, then as time goes, you changes. That's how it should be. Also, I would argue that going with your negative desires make your strength character weaker, by virtue that you will not be able to control it in the end. It's, of course, different if your desire is a positive one like to help people, in which case, go ahead. It will make you stronger as a person.

And yes, the desire to win, by itself, is a negative one, because it makes you egotistical as hell. The better one would be to strive for the best, aka, sportsmanship.

It's funny that an example of the quote and my analogy would be ZUN, who is best when he is drunk. Yet, we all know what will happen to alcoholics if they don't stop... wow, the words "drunk with power" is nearly litteral here.

2. Please don't get different series mixed up. Remember the crossover of Accel World and SAO? Never truly works. So many opportunities and thoughts, wishes and dreams, that if even one doesn't make it, you'll feel that you've been tricked. It's better to be a nihilist in that regard (because while the optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the pessimist sees the dark in the tunnel, the realist sees the approaching train, and the train driver sees three idiots standing around on the rails).
3. We're talking shonen fight - power level = drive.

No, we aren't. We're talking about VS Debates. Rule on for VS Debates: Feats. We don't allow PIS and CIS, we only follow feats aka what HAS been done and proven. We don't which of the two is actually stronger, but we can compare feat to come to a conclusion who is stronger right now.

Crossovers can work. Right now I'm reading Fate/Revelation Online, SAO x F/sn which is even crazier than SAO x AW. It just proves that premise isn't everything, it's the execution (I love Monster Girl Quest for a reason; for such a terrible premise it was very well-executed).

Also, don't talk about optimism and pessimism around me. I'm one who thinks that both are stupid and that you should be realistic and objective. You don't project higher than it could possibly be but you don't automatically assume everything will be bad and achieving something is impossible.

[Kadi]

Hmm... that "give up on being human => become inhuman => problematic with lovers" part reminded me of quite a few of Japanese games where exactly that can happen. Ironically(?) it leads to the harem endings. It also involves judicious use of tentacles. Examples would include Kamidori Alchemy Meister's spiritual predecessor, I think, as well as ... quite a few, if not all, of the Venus Blood titles?


(If it's not clear, these games, and the endings in particular, are not exactly light, bright and happy. Look them up at your own discretion. Be sure you are of an appropriate and and mind. Stuff. You have been warned.)

[Superbia]

During the fight with Sun Wukong, when Godou was using the warrior authority, he mentioned that three common themes for heroes of steel were "born from stone", "forged in fire", and "quenched in water", mimicking the method steel for swords is made.

Goudo's black blade seems to be going through a similar development. First born from stone (earth goddess Athena), then forged in fire (sun goddess Circe). So does anyone know of another female goddess known for wisdom and associated with water that could end up giving the finishing touches to it?

[Richocet]

Lady of the lake?!?!

[bakapervert]

Does it need to be goddess? Maybe Melqart can fill the role.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

Does it need to be goddess? Maybe Melqart can fill the role.

It's Godou, of course it would be a goddess. Assuming he fights Melqart again at all, it would just be a standard death match deal. I can't picture him offering to "finish" the black blade.

The theory is kind of interesting, but what else can be done to it? Athena gave him access, and Circe gave him control. Everything else is all Godou's end.

[Feng Lengshun]

Well... the Lady of the Lake maybe? Alternatively, it could also be blood. It might also be Athena again too (her head cut off and the blood became Pegasus and she's wisdom).

[RpR1337]

Originally Posted by Hokoga

MY GOD, how long did it take you to write this?

About 10 minutes, or so.

Meh well, Feng, I see your point. (Btw, the text itself was broken more-or-less, but the lines fill up the space and it's not all that much visible. I'm bad at after-editing, mostly I just proof-read.) But, I still think that you should consider ... well, how should I put it.

Spoiler for Long version ...:

So, there are many kinds of music. For example, you both have classical music, and electro/dnb/etc. Think about how many people enjoy a classical concert, and how many enjoy a rave party. You said quite a few times that your standard is JoJo, and that in itself is not a problem, but stop to think for a while. JoJo is definetly a good story (well, stories, to be exact), and it's kinda' special. It's long, and a "higher level of writing to the point of almost artistic". That's how I see it. And still, it's a manga.
There's the point. It's a manga. I absolutely loathe people who don't consider manga a form of art. Hell, one of my favourite painters makes his paintings by whacking a fire axe into the paint, then splattering the paint on the canvas. Technically, everything is a form of art, since art itself is the corporeal form of self-expression. But, because there's always a but, there are also different levels to art. Trying to compare a more-or-less unknown young popart artist's work to the Mona Lisa is a bit, you know ... well, harsh. I believe comparing almost anything to JoJo is harsh like that, simply because of the sheer quality of said work.

(The following statements are 100% my personal thoughts, as a marketing-major uni student.)
Now, what's my point to that. I can see you're quite adamant about the logic and mechanics of both the story and the characters. But most people don't see behind the scenes that much. Hell, 90% of the readers don't want to. It's just market segmentation, to be honest. There are a bunch of people who have high standards, and most people have medium to low standards. That's where you can consider stories to be the palms and feet in a twister game. Sad reality is, not all good stories get popular, and not all popular stories are good. That's decided by the polls, and the popularity rankings. Following that, writing a popular story, as opposed to just a good story simply becomes product positioning. Who do I aim it for, and how do I aim it? I might hurt your feelings there, but JoJo is the kind of work that defines a miracle simply by being massively popular (since I'll bet my head that most of the readers of JoJo didn't really understand what they read at the time).

In the end, it all comes down to sales. Entertainment is based on providing service for money, and the more people you provide service to, the more money you get. While people who are on a different intellectual level compared to the general masses may enjoy a work of lower level (depending on the elements of the story which try to grab attention not through personal "mind-game" interests, but other interests which don't involve all that much thinking), but it's actually harder to make people who have both lower intellect and needs in terms of entertainment to enjoy works with higher "cultural worth".

Whenever you say or write "I don't get why people do/say/think" style sentences, this is basically the answer. You don't get why people would want sex scenes and things that "wreck" the complex machinations of the stories. Because they can relate easier, since the thing we call "the masses" isn't on the upper staircase. That's how they think, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Also, some people might simply enjoy it more that way. In a sense, I'm referring to myself here. I love romcom, but there are still things I hate, f.e. "embarrassment". Can you give me at least 5 scenes where embarrassment really did work not as intended, but as it was meant to be? It's definetly possible, but not at all easy. Romcom tends to drop being realistic in favor of being enjoyable. I welcome that fact to a certain degree, because my sole reason to be a good consumer and "enjoy modern japanese art" (also known as become an akiba-type) is to have fun.

Spoiler for On Godou:

On Godou's topic, I'll really keep it short.

As for him being a normal person, and a human - man, he's not a human. Definetly not a normal person. Also, he's as you say, like being high, and to be perfectly honest, I can't see a problem with that. Elated with sense-numbing adrenaline to the point where serious wounds that'd knock a normal person out cold the instant they see it is the way these abnormal beings are. You say that when this kind of personality surfaces, something's wrong. It's fantasy. Everything's wrong with it, from the perspective of everyday normal.

Get over it: easy or not easy, that's simply the way. Even the longest journeys start with the first step. Also, I didn't say "wake up tomorrow to be a transcendent being".

As for everything remaining, well, that's where we differ, I think. I seriously doubt that he sincerely wants to be normal. I find him more to be someone who (we'll use your alcoholic example) "drinks normally, not an abnormal amount, just a regular drinker, but is in a position where he thinks he shouldn't, and while occasionally hitting the bar himself, he holds classes and sermons on the wrongs of alcohol consumption". In other words, it's called hippocrisy. Though I too feel sorry for him, since in my point of view, he doesn't have to cure himself, but instead (as you said) has to find a balance, which doesn't start with accepting himself as an alcoholic, but admitting to be a hippocrite.

And finally, a few words on the "VS debate" - sorries, it's just that you're spinning my gears and pushing my buttons, so it's hard to watch.

EDIT: Don't misunderstand me. I question your beliefs simply because we're talking Campione here. But it's a fantasy, and fantasy grabs people through their own imagination, instead of logical thought process. If we were talking f.e. KimiMachi here, I'd agree with you without a second thought. Honest.

(There, I tried to shorten it. Hope that works.)

[Feng Lengshun]

Spoiler for On Popularity:

Originally Posted by RpR1337

Spoiler for Long version ...:

So, there are many kinds of music. For example, you both have classical music, and electro/dnb/etc. Think about how many people enjoy a classical concert, and how many enjoy a rave party. You said quite a few times that your standard is JoJo, and that in itself is not a problem, but stop to think for a while. JoJo is definetly a good story (well, stories, to be exact), and it's kinda' special. It's long, and a "higher level of writing to the point of almost artistic". That's how I see it. And still, it's a manga.
There's the point. It's a manga. I absolutely loathe people who don't consider manga a form of art. Hell, one of my favourite painters makes his paintings by whacking a fire axe into the paint, then splattering the paint on the canvas. Technically, everything is a form of art, since art itself is the corporeal form of self-expression. But, because there's always a but, there are also different levels to art. Trying to compare a more-or-less unknown young popart artist's work to the Mona Lisa is a bit, you know ... well, harsh. I believe comparing almost anything to JoJo is harsh like that, simply because of the sheer quality of said work.

(The following statements are 100% my personal thoughts, as a marketing-major uni student.)
Now, what's my point to that. I can see you're quite adamant about the logic and mechanics of both the story and the characters. But most people don't see behind the scenes that much. Hell, 90% of the readers don't want to. It's just market segmentation, to be honest. There are a bunch of people who have high standards, and most people have medium to low standards. That's where you can consider stories to be the palms and feet in a twister game. Sad reality is, not all good stories get popular, and not all popular stories are good. That's decided by the polls, and the popularity rankings. Following that, writing a popular story, as opposed to just a good story simply becomes product positioning. Who do I aim it for, and how do I aim it? I might hurt your feelings there, but JoJo is the kind of work that defines a miracle simply by being massively popular (since I'll bet my head that most of the readers of JoJo didn't really understand what they read at the time).

In the end, it all comes down to sales. Entertainment is based on providing service for money, and the more people you provide service to, the more money you get. While people who are on a different intellectual level compared to the general masses may enjoy a work of lower level (depending on the elements of the story which try to grab attention not through personal "mind-game" interests, but other interests which don't involve all that much thinking), but it's actually harder to make people who have both lower intellect and needs in terms of entertainment to enjoy works with higher "cultural worth".

Uhm... your point being? JoJo is my standard for battles, and not for stories. And stories are stories.

Popularity is decided by result. For results, there are bad, good, smart, and lucky ones. Bad are bad, they can be popular but used as a mocking device (My Immortal is an example). Good takes effort, but they also takes people's attentions in a good way, and can be memorable too. Smart though... they're the ones made out of cunning, there might be some bad parts in it but they were clever enough that people don't really see or care for it, at least at first (TTGL is this; it's cliched as fuck but the way they done it is just so clever that I don't care). Finally, there's the lucky ones, and this can overlap with any of the previous ones, but they're so rare that you're an idiot if you rely on luck only, and it could still go wrong even then (Twilight is an example of this). Sales are decided by popularity and popularity is decided by result, hence you strive for either good one through efforts, or smart(/unique) result through creativity. For certainty, even if you're being creative, you still try to make it good.

So in the end it's in quality, in the result. To quote Diavolo "Only the results! In this world, only the results matters!" Go look at TTGL, it can easily be accepted by people of both lower and greater intellects (Spiral Energy solves all the mechanics problems, and for smarter people, they could connect it with some theories such as Higg's Boson for example), it's entertaining (except for those who dislikes mechas or don't think mechas the size of galaxies as too childish, stupid, and not awesome somehow), and it actually has a good theme (that is illustrated by kicking asses!) without being preachy (one of the complains of ToAru series...). JoJo is similar actually, the pseudo-science can actually be ignored, though it didn't change the crazy applications of powers and tactics.

Spoiler for the Effectivity:

Whenever you say or write "I don't get why people do/say/think" style sentences, this is basically the answer. You don't get why people would want sex scenes and things that "wreck" the complex machinations of the stories. Because they can relate easier, since the thing we call "the masses" isn't on the upper staircase. That's how they think, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Also, some people might simply enjoy it more that way. In a sense, I'm referring to myself here. I love romcom, but there are still things I hate, f.e. "embarrassment". Can you give me at least 5 scenes where embarrassment really did work not as intended, but as it was meant to be? It's definetly possible, but not at all easy. Romcom tends to drop being realistic in favor of being enjoyable. I welcome that fact to a certain degree, because my sole reason to be a good consumer and "enjoy modern japanese art" (also known as become an akiba-type) is to have fun.

No, I understand why people wants sex. It's a natural emotion, heck, it's one of the most natural instincts there is, an ever-present one in nearly all organisms. I understand too why people want to the characters to have sex, it's overlapping of their instincts and the fact that they care about the character. It's Wish Fulfillment, and by itself, that aren't bad.

But this is a story. Wish Fulfillment HAS to have a method, it's the goal not the plan. It's an art, and in arts, while it is free, there exists certain rules or 'indicator'. One of them in stories are 'effectivity'. If it's not effective, if it's 'not needed', then you don't include. So what if you want it to still be there anyway? Make it actually needed in the story. This is of course only possible if you make plans in details or is already incredibly experienced, but nothing good exists without efforts.

I'm fine with sex in story, just make it useful to the story. Same goes to embarrassment actually, there are many functions that you can use it for from character dynamics, showing the true characters, and conflict driver to name a few. And when it's done nicely, it became acceptable. Simple, but is hard true. But you know what? You can't gain good results and keep it unless you put the effort to be and keep being good. It's hard but it's the authors' job to do it regardless. Though it isn't really that hard if you took the time to plan things; a lot of my favorite writers and stories are actually pre-planned; like Gamesverse which fixes Nanohaverse. Actually, that's a rather apt example, it has good actions, good writing techniques, good emotions, good humors, good short stories/omakes, good conflicts, good realism, and good worldbuilding. It proves that such things are possible with enough effort, and this girl is an amateur who was NOT paid.

Spoiler for Interpretation:

Spoiler for On Godou:

On Godou's topic, I'll really keep it short.

As for him being a normal person, and a human - man, he's not a human. Definetly not a normal person. Also, he's as you say, like being high, and to be perfectly honest, I can't see a problem with that. Elated with sense-numbing adrenaline to the point where serious wounds that'd knock a normal person out cold the instant they see it is the way these abnormal beings are. You say that when this kind of personality surfaces, something's wrong. It's fantasy. Everything's wrong with it, from the perspective of everyday normal.

Get over it: easy or not easy, that's simply the way. Even the longest journeys start with the first step. Also, I didn't say "wake up tomorrow to be a transcendent being".

As for everything remaining, well, that's where we differ, I think. I seriously doubt that he sincerely wants to be normal. I find him more to be someone who (we'll use your alcoholic example) "drinks normally, not an abnormal amount, just a regular drinker, but is in a position where he thinks he shouldn't, and while occasionally hitting the bar himself, he holds classes and sermons on the wrongs of alcohol consumption". In other words, it's called hippocrisy. Though I too feel sorry for him, since in my point of view, he doesn't have to cure himself, but instead (as you said) has to find a balance, which doesn't start with accepting himself as an alcoholic, but admitting to be a hippocrite.

We're pretty much disagreeing on whether Godou's wishes to be normal is true or not, aye? Then we can just agree to disagree, alternate character interpretation is a thing after all (even Mario himself has been interpreted as sociopath once).

My interpretation is that Kusanagi Godou just wants a normal life, which I believe stems from how he was brought up. However, he has a different instinct in him, though he was brought up by everyone to follow the norms and becomes 'normal', he was born as abnormal. And conditions keeps on pulling him towards abnormality even as he tries to resists. You can compare that to other similar stories where the character is, say, a demon (Campione) but decides to take the path of a human (normality), using his demon powers to protect human or at least to walk the path of humanity in the end. It's possible to take the path of demons, and sometimes it might not be an entirely bad one, but the correct one is usually not to give in to the demonic instinct and resists, though he usually has to face himself and accepts that like it or not he's a demon first. Considering how Campiones are, I think that's more apt than I originally thought.

That's what I think on the matter.

Spoiler for Of Fantasy and Realism:

EDIT: Don't misunderstand me. I question your beliefs simply because we're talking Campione here. But it's a fantasy, and fantasy grabs people through their own imagination, instead of logical thought process. If we were talking f.e. KimiMachi here, I'd agree with you without a second thought. Honest

Even in fantasy, it has to be relate-able. People do use logical thoughts in it, but you can explain things as just "It's magic". Of course, making it as simple as that could invite more problems instead (creating plot holes and deus ex machinas), hence why you make it as clever/realistic as possible so that people could accept it. And you have to do your researches too or the blocks eventually falls and became unacceptable. Of course, there's a balance. You don't need it to be some hard sci-fi or Nasuverse, but you at least shouldn't leave holes that could easily be poked and questioned.

I think that our differences are too fundamental to solve really. I'm quite an idealistic guy who follows orthodox principles while you and many others who undoubtly disagrees with many things I've said are simply looking for entertainments. It's not wrong, just... disappointing. When you can get a better result with more efforts, why do you stop at mediocrity and not try to get to outstanding levels? As a writer, I really want to make a work of art that at the end of the story I could truly say "This was worth the effort." while readers would also feels saddened by the fact that it has ended but remembered for a long time and not just another story to pass time. See, idealistic, right? (for bonus point, insert UBW-Ending Archer image here)

[RpR1337]

All I can say is level-headed. At least it's interesting to clash opinions with you. Not being let down feels awesome.
Yeah, that's the gist of it. We're in a stalemate where we really can't decide who's right and who's wrong, because in a subjective clash like entertainment (I f.e. like Louis de Funés movies, while my mother hates them for some reason or another) there really is no right or wrong. Nevertheless, it's not bad to try and find different points of view to support a rational argument. That in itself makes it worth the effort.

Just one thing. I rarely quote or use JoJo as a reference, because it's massive and content-dense. That's really about it for my point. Campione isn't all that dense, it's fundamentally quite a slow-pace and low-content story, but you can get into the depth of it if you debate on the machinations of the plot, and it's more of a storytelling form of entertainment. JoJo's a bit different, where you don't really get "related extra" by delving into the "machinery" of the story. At least, that's what I think.

[Birdway]

Guys, can you be a bit shorter with your posts? Too much to read is tiresome.

What about a resume about the last talks or something, is the fight against Artio the last released volume, right?

[BW95]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

I have heard Kojou's strength, but honestly after seeing the anime, he seems nothing special aside from his familiar. It seems like he got killed quite often by enemy that should be far weaker than him and his answer to each new enemy is just summon new familiar, no tactic or instinct as far as I can see. Godou should be able to beat him.

In terms of purely physical specs, Kojou hardly loses out to Godou. He's dodged light-speed and interdimensional attacks. His physical strength alone without magic is enough to demolish a building. He can maintain his kenjuu for as long as he likes unlike Godou's once per day limitation.

[bakapervert]

^ Well, in the anime I can see he is quite hard to pin down even when attacked by expert in close range combat, so i guess he is not entirely helpless, but evading light speed and interdimensional attacks? And also destroying building, he is that strong? His problem though is his familiar is too strong and too many that he never seem to have used his brain to improvised or using his guts and spirit to snatch victory from the jaw of defeat (except maybe in that flashback volume when he is still human). Against character like Campione, I can't help but imagine that he will be winning in the start but will surely lose in the end. Well, though if we debate it using that OBD rule, I guess Kojou will win against Campione-verse.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

^ Well, in the anime I can see he is quite hard to pin down even when attacked by expert in close range combat, so i guess he is not entirely helpless, but evading light speed and interdimensional attacks? And also destroying building, he is that strong? His problem though is his familiar is too strong and too many that he never seem to have used his brain to improvised or using his guts and spirit to snatch victory from the jaw of defeat (except maybe in that flashback volume when he is still human). Against character like Campione, I can't help but imagine that he will be winning in the start but will surely lose in the end. Well, though if we debate it using that OBD rule, I guess Kojou will win against Campione-verse.

Light speed and interdimensional attacks during his fight with Kanon and that building tidbit was stated by Mikumo himself. Thing is although Kojou and Godou are quite similar they suffer from opposite problems. Godou needs his harem, everything he's got, and then some just to break even. Kojou has to restrain himself from obliterating the enemy because he wants to save his opponent like with Kanon or he just doesn't want to destroy everything so he usually needs his harem for their unique abilities, not their fighting strength. His fights are pretty straightforward so there's never really a need for improvising or quick thinking, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have those qualities.

[bakapervert]

^ I guess all MC should have talent for improvising or quick thinking, including Kojou. Well, being too strong has its own problem, including boring battle.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by bakapervert

^ I guess all MC should have talent for improvising or quick thinking, including Kojou. Well, being too strong has its own problem, including boring battle.

If you really think about it, a campione's luck is really just the typical shounen ability to reverse unfavorable situations. In fact, there are many precedents for this. Most notably Index's Touma and Hamazura.

I've always thought about this, but Godou's luck may be in a different league compared to his fellow devil kings. For starters, not only did he defeat Verethragna, a war god that embodies victory, but pretty much every match since has ended in a draw. This is significant. When gods or campione fight each other, the odds of winning are always 50/50 because powers and experience are rendered moot. So if the chances of winning are 50% and the chances of losing are 50%, then what are the chances of a draw?