(L) Otome Youkai Zakuro

[0utf0xZer0]

Spoiler for episode 9:

At first I didn't get why Susukihotaru reacted so poorly to Riken buying her the ginger drink... then I realized that he completely missed her hint. Still a bit of a surprise coming from her, but I guess even the quiet one can get annoyed - its true of my girlfriend, so i imagine its true of others.

We now have explicit confirmation that the twins have no issues with three person relationships, not that I ever expected otherwise.

Fun episode overall, although I felt pretty bad for Kei, what with the conversation between Hanadate and Zakuro. I'm still not sure how much of what they said to each other was true, particularly as I suspect that Hanadate may not be a completely willing agent for the Black Widow. We know that she has no problems using others for her ends.

[ars89]

Spoiler for my take on ep 9:

Upset for Kei, feel bad for him after this ep, so Zakuro trying Milk was a nice gesture, so the guys are in new outfits, what sparked the change?, so the nice song was aback for a little bit, so Hanadate actually joined in on a mission, but why did Kushimatsu allow it, or was the elephant right that she had fallen in love as well, those three workers were really funny this ep, twins were funny as always, Susukihotoru turns down Riken's gesture and wants a bigger response, Riken has to only say it now, so Zakuro stopped Kei from revealing his true feelings, but Hanadate took the opportunity to take the advantage, Zakuro seems very confused but was also happy, so the guy in the mask is definitely Hanadate and is working with the black widow, hate Hanadate even more after this ep, Kei needs to express himself next ep to turn this around

[LKK]

Originally Posted by ars89

Spoiler for my take on ep 9:

so the guys are in new outfits, what sparked the change?

Spoiler for ep 9 clothing:

The guys have worn their dress whites before, if I remember right. They wore them to the ball, didn't they? If not then, then at another time because the dress whites aren't new. What I don't know is why they were wearing them for this episode. There didn't seem to be a reason to wear them in this episode.

[thundrakkon]

Another very good episode with development all the way around.

Spoiler for Episode 9:

I was actually a little upset with Zakuro this episode. She stopped Kei from confessing due to not wanting to hear an insincere love confession from him, yet she turned around and did the exact thing to him, except it hurt more because it was another guy. "Your not allowed to make false confessions, but I am." It is sad, and I hope it will be resolved soon. Really felt bad for Kei.

Hanadate is the final boss, as everyone expected. You can't have a main protagonist love rival that has a chance be a good guy, can you? It is a lot easier to remove the love rival when he is the nasty, lying, bad guy.

Riken's and Susukihotaru's feelings for each other is quite obvious, but she just wanted to hear him say it. Love it how guys can be so clueless sometimes.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by LKK

Spoiler for ep 9 clothing:

The guys have worn their dress whites before, if I remember right. They wore them to the ball, didn't they? If not then, then at another time because the dress whites aren't new. What I don't know is why they were wearing them for this episode. There didn't seem to be a reason to wear them in this episode.

Spoiler for the uniforms in Ep9:

I believe the "dress whites" are the boys' summer uniforms. I think it was mentioned somewhere, or it was at least alluded to, that the season has changed. The series started in spring, as these stories typically do, during the blossoming of the cherries. The next episode features a matsuri, and such festivals usually take place in the summer.

So, if I were to hazard a guess, Ep9 took place in either early summer or very late spring.

===============

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for episode 9:

Riken isn't quite as smooth as I thought, he finally made a mistake! Susukihotaru's reaction was very cute. The twins were as amusing as always; I'm not sure their hairstyle would suit Ganryuu but that's a small price to pay for a ménage à trois with twins. He's living the dream.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Spoiler for episode 9:

At first I didn't get why Susukihotaru reacted so poorly to Riken buying her the ginger drink... then I realized that he completely missed her hint. Still a bit of a surprise coming from her, but I guess even the quiet one can get annoyed - its true of my girlfriend, so i imagine its true of others.

I wonder...

Spoiler for Riken, and the expression of love:

There is an interesting sub-theme in this episode that dealt with the nature of love. It was voiced most explicitly by Sususkihotaru at the bridge: "The desire to hear someone say he loves you... To know how that person feels... It's a powerful emotion.

"I can sense if someone cares for me, but I can't sense what it means. For instance, does he care for me as a friend? As a little sister? Or as a lov-"

Now, contrast Susukihotaru's words with Zakuro's feelings: "(To Agemaki) But I don't want to hear you say something you might not even mean!"

Considering how Hanadate then proceeded to lie about his feelings for Zakuro, those words suddenly take on much deeper meaning: Words can lie.


Most of us live in modern societies where it has become a norm — almost a requirement, in fact — to tell others openly about what we feel. But in a society like Japan's, where people typically do not say what they really mean, preferring instead to hide their true feelings behind protocol and courteous speech, words are like cheap cosmetic used to cover a blemish.

Instead, much more value is placed on a person's actions and behaviour, as they reflect far more accurately on that person's character and personality. As the saying goes, action speaks a lot louder than words.

In Riken's case, we already know that he is the strong, silent type, a stoic hero who prefers to keep his own counsel, but who never hesitates to act decisively if the occasion calls for it.

We also know that he cares very deeply for Susukihotaru. I get the feeling that he could already see where her line of thought was going, but rather than overplay his hand, he decided, as usual, to demonstrate what she means to him.

In a way, I think it's really more up to Susukihoutaru to understand that, where her relationship with Riken is concerned, she doesn't need further words of reassurance from him — he has already fully committed himself to her without her asking.



I remember an interview in which the BBC (I think?) asked a Japanese man why he feels uncomfortable telling his wife that he loves her. He replied thoughtfully: "Because saying it out loud somehow makes it less real."

Those words ring out again in my head as I go over this lovely episode.

===============

So much more to say. This series has become the black horse of the season for me. I remember, when I started watching two months ago, thinking very consciously that it's most likely going to be an outlier for me, as I don't typically enjoy lovey-dovey romances.

In a season dominated by anime that, whether deliberately or coincidentally, seem obsessed with self-referencing the genre (Bakuman, Kuragehime, Ore no Imouto and even one episode of Shinrei Tantei Yakumo, where a minor character revealed a childhood dream to be a manga artist), it has been immensely refreshing to watch a story that tries not to be too clever, focusing instead on delivering what all good stories must: Lovable, entertaining and highly enjoyable characters that we can all root for unequivocally.

I haven't quite gone through this thread thoroughly. I'll come back with more comments and observations once I've done so. For now, was it Vexx or someone else who had wondered about the chant that the girls do before every slaying?

It's clear that Zakuro is the "pointman" of the team. What is curious though, is the way she always adapts her opening line to suit the opponent. I guess that is what makes her the natural leader, as she seems to instinctively know the right words to open the spell. I suppose it's this ability that inspired the other three girls, helping them to develop their own unique powers.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I wonder...

Spoiler for Riken, and the expression of love:

There is an interesting sub-theme in this episode that dealt with the nature of love. It was voiced most explicitly by Sususkihotaru at the bridge: "The desire to hear someone say he loves you... To know how that person feels... It's a powerful emotion.

"I can sense if someone cares for me, but I can't sense what it means. For instance, does he care for me as a friend? As a little sister? Or as a lov-"

Now, contrast Susukihotaru's words with Zakuro's feelings: "(To Agemaki) But I don't want to hear you say something you might not even mean!"

Considering how Hanadate then proceeded to lie about his feelings for Zakuro, those words suddenly take on much deeper meaning: Words can lie.


Most of us live in modern societies where it has become a norm — almost a requirement, in fact — to tell others openly about what we feel. But in a society like Japan's, where people typically do not say what they really mean, preferring instead to hide their true feelings behind protocol and courteous speech, words are like cheap cosmetic used to cover a blemish.

Instead, much more value is placed on a person's actions and behaviour, as they reflect far more accurately on that person's character and personality. As the saying goes, action speaks a lot louder than words.

In Riken's case, we already know that he is the strong, silent type, a stoic hero who prefers to keep his own counsel, but who never hesitates to act decisively if the occasion calls for it.

We also know that he cares very deeply for Susukihotaru. I get the feeling that he could already see where her line of thought was going, but rather than overplay his hand, he decided, as usual, to demonstrate what she means to him.

In a way, I think it's really more up to Susukihoutaru to understand that, where her relationship with Riken is concerned, she doesn't need further words of reassurance from him — he has already fully committed himself to her without her asking.



I remember an interview in which the BBC (I think?) asked a Japanese man why he feels uncomfortable telling his wife that he loves her. He replied thoughtfully: "Because saying it out loud somehow makes it less real."

Those words ring out again in my head as I go over this lovely episode.

After rewatching the scene, I agree Riken knew where Susukihotaru's line of thought was going (he's not dense enough to not get such an obvious hint), but I think he truly messed up when he gave her the drink. Saying it was to cool her down because her face was flushed made it sound like he completely missed the point and didn't realize the real reason behind her blush: she was incredibly embarrassed because she was basically asking him to confirm his feelings for her (either through words or actions).

The quote you posted is really sweet. I'll be sure to remember it.

I was glad to hear the chant again in this episode, it had been a while. I was a bit disappointed it didn't get to my favorite part though (Appare! Appare!).

[LKK]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Spoiler for the uniforms in Ep9:

I believe the "dress whites" are the boys' summer uniforms. I think it was mentioned somewhere, or it was at least alluded to, that the season has changed. The series started in spring, as these stories typically do, during the blossoming of the cherries. The next episode features a matsuri, and such festivals usually take place in the summer.

So, if I were to hazard a guess, Ep9 took place in either early summer or very late spring.

I thought of the possibility of them switching to a summer uniform. But at the time, I thought them too elaborately decorated to be the usual day wear uniform. I'd need to see a side-by-side comparison of their usual dark day uniforms with these white uniforms to see if the adornments are the same.

Considering how Hanadate then proceeded to lie about his feelings for Zakuro

I disagree with this. I don't think Hanadate was lying when he said that he was attracted to Zakuro. I think that was the point of him not responding to the Spider Lady when she teased him about being a bad liar. He didn't respond because he wasn't lying. He may not truly love Zakuro, and his feelings for her may not stop his agenda, but I'm sure he's attracted to her as he said to Kokkuri. That's why the Kokkuri accepted his statement. He wasn't lying.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by LKK

I thought of the possibility of them switching to a summer uniform. But at the time, I thought them too elaborately decorated to be the usual day wear uniform. I'd need to see a side-by-side comparison of their usual dark day uniforms with these white uniforms to see if the adornments are the same.

Easily done. As you can see, it's basically the same uniform with the same lanyards across the right side of the chest, along with the rank pips on the left side of the collar. The only significant differences are the breast pockets and red epaulettes on the "dress whites".

Granted, I could be wrong, but I see no reason why the boys would be wearing ceremonial uniforms on what seems like an ordinary day.

As for the one they wore to the military ball, it looks completely different:



This particular uniform doesn't feature lanyards nor epaulettes. The collar is also a lot more elaborate, and missing the rank pips. The uniform uses a double-breasted jacket, along with a belt on which the boys hang their smallswords. All-in-all, it looks dapper while being less cumbersome at the same time — perfect for dancing and enchanting the ladies with.

Originally Posted by LKK

I disagree with this. I don't think Hanadate was lying when he said that he was attracted to Zakuro. I think that was the point of him not responding to the Spider Lady when she teased him about being a bad liar. He didn't respond because he wasn't lying. He may not truly love Zakuro, and his feelings for her may not stop his agenda, but I'm sure he's attracted to her as he said to Kokkuri. That's why the Kokkuri accepted his statement. He wasn't lying.

He may or may not truly have feelings for Zakuro (he could be, after all, working on the Black Widow's orders to appear as though he has a crush on Zakuro), but that doesn't change the fact that he uttered those words with ulterior motives.

Hence, the idea that words can lie still stands, I feel.

Incidentally, that ties in well with this question:

Originally Posted by jadefishy

I'm curious about the pause in Kushimatsu's retaliation to Hanadate's insistence on taking a part in the mission. I wonder what she was thinking or realized.

I think Kushimatsu had an inkling that something awkward was bound to happen with Agemaki, Hanadate and Zakuro working together to subdue the kokkuri, hence her misgiving with having Hanadate join the mission. It turns out that she was right — she should have trusted her female intuition, and saved Agemaki and Zakuro from their current misunderstanding.

But, as Amaryouji would probably say, there's only so much you can do to protect the kids. It's up to them to learn from their own mistakes.

[klare]

they make it so obvious who that masked guy is...

about Riken buying the drink for Susukihotaru, i think he understands her but maybe feels it is not the right time to say it out, so he plays dumb (quiet-type generally are more sensitive and observative)

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by klare

about Riken buying the drink for Susukihotaru, i think he understands her but maybe feels it is not the right time to say it out, so he plays dumb (quiet-type generally are more sensitive and observative)

Personally it didn't seem like it was acting, and was just being dense. It's nice though, because it shows that he's not Mr. perfect who's quite all the time.

[FlareKnight]

Would definitely have to add to the feeling bad for Agemaki group. I mean damn even if it wasn't true hearing that from Zakuro would be hard. Besides it's less of a full lie with how she reacts every time the guy shows up. Pretty sure if it was in regards to Ganryuu or Riken he wouldn't have been as bothered since it would be much more obvious as a lie.

Zakuro really was all over the place this time around. Not wanting to hear Agemaki say something she wasn't sure would be the truth. Not wanting the kokkuri to point out who he was interested in, etc. Suppose I can get her not wanting things to be answered through such methods, but she needs to gather a bit of courage to find out the truth. Though being that embarrassed think it might take some dramatic situation for that side of things to be settled.

Yeah kind of lean to Riken dropping the ball a little. I can get the thinking that he doesn't need to verbalize it. But really it's not like he should never say it ever. It's not like she's asking him to constantly profess his love or something. Just wants a bit of confirmation on where they are. Not just understanding via sensing his feelings with her ability.

As always love the twins and curse Ganryuu. Lucky jerk . Of course the twins have no issue with a three person relationship. With how close they are and what's happened in their lives anything including relationships will involve the two of them.

Originally Posted by LKK

I disagree with this. I don't think Hanadate was lying when he said that he was attracted to Zakuro. I think that was the point of him not responding to the Spider Lady when she teased him about being a bad liar. He didn't respond because he wasn't lying. He may not truly love Zakuro, and his feelings for her may not stop his agenda, but I'm sure he's attracted to her as he said to Kokkuri. That's why the Kokkuri accepted his statement. He wasn't lying.

Yeah I think it's certainly possible he wasn't lying. After all the statement wasn't about being in love, but being attracted which is certainly possible. He's still pretty good at lying by hiding who he's working with all this time.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Zakuro really was all over the place this time around. Not wanting to hear Agemaki say something she wasn't sure would be the truth. Not wanting the kokkuri to point out who he was interested in, etc. Suppose I can get her not wanting things to be answered through such methods, but she needs to gather a bit of courage to find out the truth. Though being that embarrassed think it might take some dramatic situation for that side of things to be settled.

That's the usual trope of such stories, though, the "are-they" or "aren't-they" game. It's what keeps audiences hooked till the end, in the vain hope of finally getting a definitive answer.

Still, despite being a well-worn device, it's cute how Zakuro and Agemaki behave in this instance. :3 Their problem is that they aren't sure whether they are in love, and are therefore reluctant to confess. Neither of them knows what love is supposed to feel like. Zakuro, especially, is all confused since she is as irritated (at times) by Agemaki as she is attracted to him.

As observers, we would of course feel that they make an obvious couple. But, then, isn't that usually the case even in real life? People who are actually in love — true love, and not lust — seldom realise it themselves until they are told by someone else (more so the case when the people involved suffer from low self-esteem, and feel themselves unlovable).

It's not about how many times you say, "I love you". Rather, it's probably more like how an acquaintance* of mine once described it: When you care about someone's welfare more than you do your own, that's love.



*Last I heard, that acquaintance had become happily married to the man she met online on Final Fantasy XI. And, yes, she was not the only example I know of who got hitched via that MMORPG.

[kitten320]

Have found some nice images:

Spoiler for space:

[LKK]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

:snipping very useful & informative pictures to save space:

Thank you for the comparison pictures. Now that I've seen what my faulty memory got wrong, I agree that the white uniforms are likely their summer dress after all. Although, I still think they look more formal than their winter dress for some reason.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Hence, the idea that words can lie still stands, I feel.

I agree with that point philosophically, but I still believe that Hanadate is genuinely attracted to Zakuro. Whether that attraction will overcome the Spider Lady's and his agenda remains to be seen. (I'm betting it won't, but it may lead to a delay in agenda execution significant enough to allow Our Heros to win the day.)

[ars89]

am i the only one who thinks its the black widow working for Hanadate, it seems as everyone is concluding that Hanadate is working under her spell or something, he's been suspicious from the beginning and i think he's always been trying to get close to Zakuro in order to deceive her in the end, also i agree that he actually may be attracted to her, but its definitely not love and i think he is only using it to get close to her in order to enact his plan, whatever it may be

[kitten320]

That's actually the idea I was having, he does look more like main boss.

[Zeroryoko1974]

It seems like pretty likely. Isn't that a pretty prime Shoujo trope to have the main female be dere dere for someone and he turns out to be the main bad guy?

[PreSage]

Spoiler for ep9:

So it turns out that Hanadate really is the mask villain. Even before the ending, my hairs were on end (not out of fear but of irritation) when Hanadate appeared in the episode. I just don't like that guy at all...and now I have more solid reason not too. XD I don't think he's under her spell. The way she complimented his "bad at lying" statement and how he stood up and walked away from her, felt like he is the boss.

Again, like during the ballroom episode, I feel so bad for Agemaki. He is such a sweet guy and for him to suffer from Zakuro's indecisiveness and uncertainty; it's just sad. This is the part that I don't like about Zakuro - falling for the bode, handsome, hero character so blindly. But the time she spent with Agemaki really is changing her heart. It's pretty obvious that she doesn't want to hear whether Agemaki loves another girl and she was conscious of her own feelings when she told that lie to Hanadate (how she keeps looking at Agemaki) - she just needs to wake up to her feelings.

That scene with Hotoru and Riken is beautiful. It was just awesome how she turned down his tea like that. Haha. A beautiful fault in that lovely couple. And Ganryuu and the twins are hilarious as always - I felt sorry for Ganryuu when they were feeding him; thought he was about to keel over or something.

Now what did Kushimatsu notice when she was looking at Hanadate?? Could she have sensed a certain evilness...because he sure gave her a "don't you dare go against me" kind of look.

...and is Agemaki still afraid of spirits? I thought he'd gotten over that by now...O_o

[HandofFate]

I know obviously milk is more common now in japan.

but in anime whenever the girls go to the public bath, and drink a bottle of milk afterwards scene.

is it cow milk, or soy milk they're downing?

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

is it cow milk, or soy milk they're downing?

It's suppose to be cow milk - introduced from the western world.