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Old 2010-06-27, 17:40   Link #2381
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
You need to visit more fanbases. Every single adaptation/alternate universe movie does this. Eureka 7, SDF Macross, etc. Characters have to change and be skimmed down to adapt the context of the new story.
Because it happens in other adaptions doesn't make it particularly a good thing.

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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
What did Asuka do in 2.0? She showed why she's Captain-rank and an ace by single-handily beating an Angel. She got taught a lesson that teamwork is far more important in the next Angel. She shows her newfound respect by taking over the testing for Unit-03, as piloting is her strongest point and the most she can contribute.
She beat an angel seemingly so weak, that it underawed the audience (Me).

The teamwork lesson isn't a particularly well driven point in Rebuild compared to the original NGE. Now part of the problem is we're still not sure how they plan to develop this Asuka, so I'll wait to give full criticism here.

At least in the original when they fought Israfel, we really got to first experience some real development with Asuka and explore her relationship with Shinji just a little bit more. It was first here that we truly saw some sort of psychological problem with Asuka when it just seemed so hard for her to swallow her pride and actually work together with Shinji. This was the missing piece of bonding and strife between her and Shinji that was missing in Reubild

And about Asuka getting in Unit 0-3... This was shallow development really. This was mostly a plot device, both to make Shinji hurt her (Getting Touji out of the story), and most of all to give Mari Sue (Ok I'm sorry, just had to do this ) extra screen time. The universe's logic was completely warped (Vatican treaty? How ludicrous, they are trying to save the world) just to get Asuka out of Unit 0-2.

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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
Just because the series used Touji instead of Asuka, doesn't mean it makes far sense for Asuka to be the pilot over him. I would call Eva a lack of effort if it just suddenly stopped at episode 19 for 2 years, too.
It was more the manner in which it was done than anything.
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Old 2010-06-27, 21:48   Link #2382
RisArk
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(Vatican treaty? How ludicrous, they are trying to save the world)
If Eva has taught us anything, humans are petty assholes until the very end. They do this even back as early as episode 7 when discussing America starving to fund the Evas.

Eva's are incredibly powerful war machines, and when nobody except SEELE knows how many Angels are left, it's not unreasonable at all to assume paranoia at an all-time high.
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Old 2010-06-27, 22:50   Link #2383
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
It DOES rely on people's knowledge of the series, it HAS to. It may be a different version of the story, but it still is based on the first version.
And that's what i'm dissing it for. Because i don't think "Oh, just fill the gaps using the series" is a good approach.

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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
She got taught a lesson that teamwork is far more important in the next Angel.
Unless you are the main character. And male. Then you can do fucking EVERYTHING.

It's sure is a good thing that the climax of 2.0 subverts the hell out of itself and Yui was confirmed to be an active player in Eva-01's dealings, otherwise i would be raging so hard for Eva of all things joining the ranks of "If you have a penis, you are superior." type of anime (that is, every anime that isn't female oriented, which usually show gender equality, or isn't done by Hayao Miyazaki). Oh, and the fact that Shinji is still pretty unconventionally feminine for a shonen protagonist.

EDIT:
I just realized that i'm hackling on Rebuild for relying too much on the series, and looking for qualities established in the original NGE within the same post. Consistency is for the weak!

Last edited by Greg88; 2010-06-28 at 01:11.
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Old 2010-06-28, 12:38   Link #2384
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
EDIT:
I just realized that i'm hackling on Rebuild for relying too much on the series, and looking for qualities established in the original NGE within the same post. Consistency is for the weak!
Honestly. This is the fault of Rebuild that I've been trying to point out. Anno's intentions in "REIMAGINING" this series are not clear whatsoever.

Is he just trying to change up his older series? Perhaps create a new conclusion?

Is he simply trying to line his pockets with cash?

Is he just using an old good idea to explore totally new concepts?

Does he expect his old fans to fuel the fire for these movies?

Does he expect new fans to rise? Or both?

Am I as an Evangelion fan over the years supposed to be feeling like this is a treat?

Or am I as an Evangelion fan over years not even considered in the equation beyond money?

Personally I have trouble believing that we are supposed to take Rebuild as something totally new. Anno, or at least the producers fully expected old fandom to catch fire. Hence, this is mainly directed at old fans, and at the same time trying to gain new onces. Thus, it is just too difficult to split the old Evangelion from the new. I expect the same standards to be held in both series, and I expect more of the same that made me think the old Evangelion series (flaws and all) was the most memorable and best anime of all time.
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Old 2010-06-28, 22:01   Link #2385
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Honestly, I think the discussion about whether it's supposed to be something new and to stand alone, separated from the TV series is moot. We all know from the start how marketing goes, and they'll do anything to fill up some more sales by advertising the series as "for old and new fans alike". I'm pretty sure Anno never really meant the things he said about how this was a rework of the series in its entirety, but you gotta please the sponsors somehow. Which is to say I don't care one bit about what Anno says in the latest anime promotion mag since I know from the start it's all rosy colors and fluffy words to attract new viewers -- and no one really interested in the series (in which I'm including Rebuild) as a work of art and a statement about the human condition should do so, either, because all in all, this is nothing more than an expansion of the NGE series, not a rework. How the hell could an intelligent new viewer stand such a disjointed pace, which only makes sense to people who've watched the series, throughout the two films? The more keen would probably be pushed towards checking out the old masterpiece in all its glory, and that's all that matters. The rest of the viewers? Just random noise, which every work of art has in the end.

As for 2.0 itself, which I just watched. I agree on some of the criticisms -- the new girl in particular seems like a byproduct of what I mentioned earlier, and her role in the movie is so insignificant she might as well never have been there, which leads me to believe that the fact that she just comes and goes like it's nothing is merely a wink from Anno to the old fans (as in saying, "they made me do it, don't worry about her too much!"); Asuka's sudden epiphany and apparent death also seemed a bit forced. The ending looked, at first glance, like something out of the latest penis-waving epic mecha-riding shounen hero anime, but I don't think it's that badly smothered by it. In the end, EoE had Shinji undergoing a very similar, practically identical development, though there was no Rei to hold naked in his arms.

But I firmly believe the spirit of the series stayed the same. Shinji rebels against everyone and everything, for his own selfish motives, and as far as we know, he's winning the battle -- just like in EoE. The only thing we are missing is the conclusion, which I'm partly scared of given the final few seconds of the movie after the credits are done rolling. But I have confidence in that they won't change things around much.

PS: I'm having a wonderful time loling at the earlier posts whining about Shinji's whining (heh). They're essentially proving my first paragraph up there is the truth, especially this one:

Quote:
And how much different is Shinji in rebuild anyway? In a way, hes worst since hes willing to damn the world to get what he wants. In EoE, Shinji lets everyone decided whether they want to come back themselves.
(yes, I don't think Shinji has changed much at all. It was somewhat of a feint in the first movie but it's completely changed and back to its roots in 2.0)
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2010-06-28 at 22:34.
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Old 2010-06-28, 23:59   Link #2386
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
(yes, I don't think Shinji has changed much at all. It was somewhat of a feint in the first movie but it's completely changed and back to its roots in 2.0)
Well. We could say that in both EoE and Rebuild 2.0, Shinji destroys the world selfishly. But the selfish motives are not quite the same...

EoE was more about Shinji not being able to deal with the pain in the world any longer, he reached his breaking point.

On the other hand, Shinji in 2.0 did it out of love and care for the person that was like a sister to him. He wanted nothing more than to save the person who made him feel at any ease whatsoever.

Perhaps at the root they are related to the same problem in the very end... But the former allowed me to both empathize with Shinji and really feel the emotion of the moment (When "come sweet death" plays and blows my mind).

In this case, he's throwing away the world for one person... And that would be fine I guess, if this wasn't Evangelion and the character wasn't Shinji (Who throughout 1.0, and a fair amount of 2.0 was nearly identical to NGE Shinji).

I say this because Shinji isn't that type of person. I find it hard to believe that the person who experiences the hedgehog's dilemma in full force would throw everything away for another person, and even go on to so much as show physical intimacy with said person in one glorious scene... It just doesn't fit for me and seems inconsistent with his character.
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Old 2010-06-29, 03:30   Link #2387
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^ It still fits his character.

Why did Shinji decide to pilot Eva again in the first place? Shinji trying to save Rei is just the continuation of his motivation of piloting Eva again in that scene. The only difference between this scenario and the one in the original....Shinj was not given the power to consciously save NERV/Misato/Rei/Friends before.

People are capable of a vast spectrum of emotions - they can be at there very best and at times at their very lowest. Youre comparing a pre-Karouw-betrayal Shinji with post-Karouw-betrayal one. Shinji in 2.0 is perfectly fine for a Shinji up to ep 18 in the series.

He never reached your 'breaking point' yet in 2.0 so I think its fine with his current motivations. Shinji's character hasnt change that much...the story's plot has....
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Old 2010-06-29, 11:49   Link #2388
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Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer View Post
^ It still fits his character.

Why did Shinji decide to pilot Eva again in the first place? Shinji trying to save Rei is just the continuation of his motivation of piloting Eva again in that scene. The only difference between this scenario and the one in the original....Shinj was not given the power to consciously save NERV/Misato/Rei/Friends before.

People are capable of a vast spectrum of emotions - they can be at there very best and at times at their very lowest. Youre comparing a pre-Karouw-betrayal Shinji with post-Karouw-betrayal one. Shinji in 2.0 is perfectly fine for a Shinji up to ep 18 in the series.

He never reached your 'breaking point' yet in 2.0 so I think its fine with his current motivations. Shinji's character hasnt change that much...the story's plot has....
I'll repeat...

Quote:
I say this because Shinji isn't that type of person. I find it hard to believe that the person who experiences the hedgehog's dilemma in full force would throw everything away for another person, and even go on to so much as show physical intimacy with said person in one glorious scene... It just doesn't fit for me and seems inconsistent with his character.
Shinji literally cringes away from physical intimacy, and in this case he initiates it?

Anyhow, I didn't say this Shinji was that different, but there are significant nuances in his Rebuild form that I do not appreciate.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:18   Link #2389
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So what youre basically gripping about is that Shinji hugs Rei while he's trying to save her....?

If you havent noticed Shinji doesnt really ever pilot the Eva to SAVE THE WORLD...he does it for his Father's sake, for Misato's sake, for Kaji's Sake for his friends sake....but really NOT for the world. Doing something in order to save the world is pretty much an inconceivable concept for an average person, but narrowing it down (to make it more personal) makes it simpler and more managble. In 1.0 he even mentions with the worlds fate on the line its still not that much of a motivation for him. Does he even know his actions will end the world...this is basically the same Shinji who wanted to rescue Rei from the super heated hatch. If holding onto Rei (hugging her) is what he thought was needed to save her...i dont see it out of his character to do it.

Also the intimacy scene your talking about - do we even know if its physical? For all we know it could all be playing out in his mind....as in thats what he wants to do than actaully be doing it. With Eva 01 going super berserker and metaphysical, those scenes could simply be imagery to represent Shinji's determination to save Rei. Its not like Shinji in the original series never ever wanted to comfort anyone either...the thing is he didnt physically know how...Im sure he wanted to comfort Misato crying over the answering machine but in reality didnt know how...

Last edited by Waking_Dreamer; 2010-06-29 at 16:58.
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Old 2010-06-29, 18:18   Link #2390
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Quote:
Perhaps at the root they are related to the same problem in the very end... But the former allowed me to both empathize with Shinji and really feel the emotion of the moment (When "come sweet death" plays and blows my mind).

In this case, he's throwing away the world for one person... And that would be fine I guess, if this wasn't Evangelion and the character wasn't Shinji (Who throughout 1.0, and a fair amount of 2.0 was nearly identical to NGE Shinji).

I say this because Shinji isn't that type of person. I find it hard to believe that the person who experiences the hedgehog's dilemma in full force would throw everything away for another person, and even go on to so much as show physical intimacy with said person in one glorious scene... It just doesn't fit for me and seems inconsistent with his character.
I see your point, and agree with it now that I think about it. You're right, as far as we're being told right now, he's different from the Shinji in EoE. That's too bad, to be honest... though maybe it is a response from an older Anno. We'll see how it goes -- we haven't been shown the conclusion yet. It could be better, it could be a lot worse... Heidegger changed a lot in his later years, and went as far as to deny everything that made his earlier works on the human condition so good. I wonder how it'll turn out for Anno.

By the way, if you haven't read Heidegger's Being and Time and Jean Paul Sartre (his philosophical works, not his novels) and are a fan of EoE, you should do so as soon as possible. EoE draws so much from both philosophers it's almost unreal.
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Old 2010-06-30, 01:26   Link #2391
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Old 2010-06-30, 07:57   Link #2392
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Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer View Post
If you havent noticed Shinji doesnt really ever pilot the Eva to SAVE THE WORLD...he does it for his Father's sake, for Misato's sake, for Kaji's Sake for his friends sake....but really NOT for the world. .
Damn it, that Shinji is a raging alcoholic. He won't do a thing unless there is sake involved *drumroll* .

But seriously, i thought the story was brilliant in regards to the finale: we spent a whole movie with Shinji going on about his daddy issues. Then his father betrays him, Shinji renounces him, and after that, he goes out to save a girl who is trapped inside an Angel, unwittingly initiating Third Impact.

Let's recap:
1. Important female is trapped inside Angelic being
2. Male tries to rescue her at all costs
3. Third Impact gets initiated

Doesn't that remind you of the plans of someone? A bearded, tall someone with orange shades, white gloves....

OOC for Shinji or no, this possible interplay/subversion is the only thing i might laud 2.0's plot for.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:32   Link #2393
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Great points, Greg88.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:43   Link #2394
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I felt Shinji's character still made perfect sense.
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Old 2010-06-30, 16:49   Link #2395
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Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer View Post
I felt Shinji's character still made perfect sense.
I never said the character didn't make sense, i was just pointing out that he's different... When I think of the Shinji I've always known from NGE, Rebuild Shinji just doesn't fit that mind set. Whether that's good or bad is for you to decide. My personal preference at the moment sees this as a bad thing.
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Old 2010-07-01, 02:57   Link #2396
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He's bad because he's different.

Why do you keep restating this?
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Old 2010-07-01, 03:09   Link #2397
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Even if its bad, I would never complain about it. Its always nice to have a chance to see the difference. After this there never appear the question "what if" about Shinji again.
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Old 2010-07-01, 03:20   Link #2398
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The whole point in the Rebuild project is to see another take on the story, and that's exactly what we're seeing with Shinji.
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Old 2010-07-01, 06:06   Link #2399
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Quote:
He's bad because he's different.

Why do you keep restating this?
Shinji had a clearly defined role in Anno's denouncement in NGE. He basically is the biggest building block to Anno's view upon the human condition. Changing that is delicate, and even more if they make it more shounen-y as it seems from 2.0 -- especially since NGE was a reaction against epic penis-waving mecha-riding hero shounen.
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Old 2010-07-01, 09:32   Link #2400
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Shinji had a clearly defined role in Anno's denouncement in NGE. He basically is the biggest building block to Anno's view upon the human condition. Changing that is delicate, and even more if they make it more shounen-y as it seems from 2.0 -- especially since NGE was a reaction against epic penis-waving mecha-riding hero shounen.
Like many people said already, maybe that's exactly the kind of reaction Anno and his team are going for, this time?

Times (and people) change, why can't some characters (however slightly), when placed in somewhat different situations, too?
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