2014-03-25, 21:51 | Link #1882 | ||
lethal office stationery
Join Date: Oct 2012
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I mean, think about it. Religion is ultimately a series of beliefs. Beliefs are a series of statements that our minds classify as fact without any overt evidence. Facts are a type of knowledge. Knowledge is stored in the neurons in our brains in ways we don't quite understand yet. Nothing supernatural about any of that. None of us need any special power in real life to be religious. Quote:
But for what it's worth, Hyouka almost certainly cannot reform on her own. If she could do that, then she would have formed spontaneously in the first place. It took IB, an external factor, causing the Imaginary Number District to know the concept of "death" to trigger her formation. The district was already there long before she appeared. Since she could not form on her own, there is no reason she should be able to reform on her own when destroyed. Furthermore, even if Aleister could arrange for another AIM angel to be made to replace her, something he almost certainly can do, that new angel would not be Hyouka but a distinct individual without her memories or personality. Hyouka herself would be dead.
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2014-03-25, 23:58 | Link #1883 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Actually the very fact that To Aru-verse religion itself is capable of producing phases to affect the world is sign that it is more than "ideas" per se. And how would religion and its resultant phases be separate? They are both linked. Using your bee/honey analogy, the honey may be a different thing from the bee but the honey still requires the bee for it to come into being If your bee does not have the capability of producing honey, which would be the analogue to if religion to be having no supernatural effect, then the honey of the phases would not even be an issue. Quote:
The purpose of the District is to give rise to an AIM Angel. Aleister in all likelihood, factored IB in as the catalyst for that. Whether Hyouka is the manifestation of the District in such way that she will be spawned from it with certainty is unknown. And then, you look at Aiwass itself. It is an Angel, that much has been explicitly stated as well as Angels being representations of their element. There's strong hints Aiwass represents the Horus Aeon but then it gets murky from there. The world when Aiwass first appeared to Aleister, was not in Horus yet. In fact it only moved towards it with the Book of Law given by Aiwass to Aleister... So how did Aiwass come about? Other than the hint in vol 22 that it's something related to humanity as a whole, it's unknown In fact, Aiwass itself is rather nonchalant about the prospect of its own core being destroyed since it would reform anyway. So unless IB can affect what sustains an Angel through its physical form alone....no, it's quite unlikely Gabriel is dead. Banished maybe, but not destroyed.
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2014-03-26, 04:01 | Link #1884 | ||||||||
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At some point, you have to draw a line between supernatural phenomena and natural phenomena that can give rise to supernatural phenomena but are not supernatural themselves. I believe that it is not unreasonable to assume that, as a rule of thumb, anything that exists in real life is not a distortion in the TAMNI world. (However, the opposite, that anything that does not exist in real life is a distortion in the TAMNI world, is probably not true.) Quote:
Furthermore, I think you have it slightly backwards. The purpose of the Imaginary Number District is not to spawn Hyouka. Hyouka was spawned in order to control the District, much like Fiamma used Gabriel to control the sky and reset the heavenly elements. In any case my point is if Hyouka needed help to form, by means of Aleister fine tuning the district with the help of IB and whatnot, then she would also need help to revive. Furthermore, it is doubtful that the district holds back-ups of her memories and personality outside of her body, which would have been destroyed in any circumstances that would require her to be revived. Quote:
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Given all of the above, I don't believe it is possible to make valid arguments about Gabriel based on Aiwass. On these grounds, I reject your conclusions. Nothing you have said has made it more or less likely for Gabriel to have survived or died. Both possibilities are still equally open.
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2014-03-26, 22:01 | Link #1886 | |||
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Gabriel is a symbol of the element of water. It wields influence over water and you can use it to control that element, but ultimately a symbol is only a representation of a thing, not the thing itself. Gabriel could not survive without the element of water, but it was never stated that the element of water could not survive without Gabriel. Also, one point I repeatedly brought up but has never been fully addressed. If IB could return Gabriel to heaven, which was its one and only wish, why didn't it give Touma a handshake instead of repeatedly putting the entire planet at risk? I believe that this is because Gabriel concluded that negation by IB would mean its death. So far, nobody has brought conclusive evidence to the contrary.
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2014-03-26, 22:36 | Link #1887 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Because in truth nobody knew what would happen if IB and the archangel made contact. Remember that angels are only masses of telesma which run through leylines that IB cannot destroy. That is to say IB didn't destroy Misha so much as disperse her. It undid the bind of summoning retained from Fiamma's spell.
As for why she didn't shake Touma's hand. If it means waking up to reality from a nightmare, would you commit suicide? It's just a dream and you'll wake up. No harm, no foul. Basically, Gabriel could shake Touma's hand and return to heaven, but has to endure the whole being ripped into shreds of Telesma first. |
2014-03-26, 22:43 | Link #1888 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 34
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2. You just quoted what proves my point 1. Quote:
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Take the previous fight as example, everyone vs "Misha" when the anchors got destroyed by Touma who was aboard SoB it became unstable and lost its form and became energy and later dissapeared of sight but in reality the archangel still existed in the material world. Also, there is no point arguien if Gabriel is dead, if it was really dead it would have been mentioned already with things like "Touma killed an angel" instead of deafeating it or blaming him for causing yet another distortion that Fiamma worked hard to fix. So no. It still exists. Quote:
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2014-03-26, 23:33 | Link #1889 | |||||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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I also pointed out that distortions in heaven have 0 negative effects on Earth. I doubt anyone would blame Touma for distorting heaven, something that has no consequences, when the alternative was letting Gabriel destroy the planet. For more details about the previous two points, look further back in the discussion. I repeated myself once, I won't do so again. As an additional point, I express doubt in Necessarius' ability to tell what's going on in heaven when they hadn't noticed the distortion in the first place, nor could they tell that Gabriel had become pure again. Quote:
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The "dispersed its body/undid summoning and returned it to heaven" is just your favorite theory. I won't fully deny that that might be the case, but you have no conclusive evidence against destruction either. @demino_hellsin, Telesma does not flow through the Ley Lines. That's the power of the world, which is something entirely different. Telesma exists in a different phase entirely.
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2014-03-27, 00:00 | Link #1890 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I could've sworn that index explained that Mana was untempered telesma, free form magical energy that originates from humans and living things. Telesma is mana with a set elemental alignment and usage which flows through leylines as per volume 2 of old testament.
if we each have our theories and none of us can prove ourselves conclusively right, then why do you keep pushing to have the last word? Logically it's because you are pushing your theory as correct. Either that or your pride just won't let you quit. Also, it's not a matter of what type of being Gabriel is. They have already said that angels are a living thing. It was already said that Kazakiri instinctively avoided IB and so did Misha Kreutzev. I'd say that's fair evidence that even angels are afraid of being ripped to shredded telesma. |
2014-03-27, 01:24 | Link #1891 | |||
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2014-03-27, 01:27 | Link #1892 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Telesma is relevant because in angel fall arc, angels were described as masses of telesma. The very nature of Gabriel's existence is being discussed, brushing it off as unimportant is ignoring major argument.
I give you your last word. And my argument is not the bottom line. I said my piece and I will no longer defend it. Death on the physical plane then. I agree with you that they are afraid to die. |
2014-03-27, 04:01 | Link #1893 | |
Nympholept
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Wonderland.
Age: 31
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Spoiler for from another thread ... Now I get it:
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2014-03-27, 04:18 | Link #1894 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Funny thing, I doubt that Kamachi is just so simple a writer to have his greatest secret to just be released as something so underwhelming as this. There's probably some context so as to explain the situation with the dragon head. Just as with Aurelious, it was explained that the dragon was the only thing Aurelious could imagine that thing as.
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2014-03-27, 05:50 | Link #1895 | |
Index III was a mistake
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
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However, that's all it proved. We still don't know WHAT it is. It certainly LOOKS like a dragon but there's nothing else we can say about it. And I'll say it once more in this thread: dragon imagery has been associated with IB since Index Volume 1. Even if it turns out to be a dragon, it is consistent with everything we have observed. We still know next to nothing about it and yet people are disappointed by this small revelation? By now it should have been a given; this is just extra confirmation. The real question is whether or not the Dragon Strike is the Invisible Thing or the power that crushed the Invisible Thing OR like Will-chan's current life/death state, something slightly more complex...
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2014-03-27, 06:05 | Link #1896 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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But I'm pretty sure that Touma wondered if the dragon was only in Aurelious head. There was no complete neglect that Aurelious imagery might be partly his own vision.
What I'm saying maybe it looks like a dragon but it's not a dragon at all? Remember that dragons here are also known as fallen angel. Fallen angels can also indicate devils. Then if you want to over think it, link it to our hero's alternative interpretation of name. "The invisible demon that stands above god" |
2014-03-27, 06:20 | Link #1897 | |||
Index III was a mistake
Join Date: Jul 2013
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It's still mere speculation if we analyze it using mythology. There's just nothing definite to work with apart from what we see and read in the novels.
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2014-03-27, 07:32 | Link #1898 | |
Banned
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2014-03-27, 08:20 | Link #1899 |
Index III was a mistake
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
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^
Refer to my previous posts. We already knew that the dragon strike was real. Volume 22 was the proof. Railgun Ch 69 was just a well placed reminder. But in regards to downplaying the mystique, in practice we haven't learnt anything new. The mystique is still there becuase we don't know what the significance of the Dragon Strike is in relation to the world of Toaru Majutsu no Index. We don't know what any of this actually means.
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