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teja208 · 2013-11-03, 11:35

I heard a lot of people claiming they're into certain character that falls under these two archetypes but dislike other character of the same archetype. I also seen a few who claim they normally would dislike these archetypes with exception of character X.

This is why I decided to create this thread, so that people can share and discuss their own criteria for judging good and/or bad tsundere/yandere characters. Keep in mind that everyone of us has different set of tastes and standards for when it comes to character they like or dislike so try to respect each others’ opinion.

By all means, you may give examples of characters you like or dislike, but no character bashing or wife claiming please. I don’t wish to hear things like this,” I just don’t get how can someone think Character A is the better than that Character B. CHARACTER A IS FU*KING CRAP! CHARACTER B IS MY WIFE! HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY WIFE?! CHARACTER A CAN JUST DIE FOR ALL I CARE!!!”

Well, if you got the massage. Please proceed.

Revan21 · 2013-11-03, 11:45

I like tsunderes that act cold only in the beginning then steadily warm up to the guy and become more dere. And stays that way when they are together, although she may act cold in front of others to keep up apperances or whatever! I hate the type that unreasonably switches back and forth between the two.

Triple_R · 2013-11-03, 21:19

Steins;Gate's Kurisu Makise is probably the best written tsundere I've seen in the last few years.

My ideal tsundere is someone who's sharp and assertive, but has difficulty admitting her/his feelings for someone that s/he has a crush on. I prefer the tsundere that is slightly snarky to her/his object of affection, and shyly denies his/her feelings for that person. I typically prefer that to a very loud and/or violent tsundere. Basically, the more physically violent and overall abusive a tsundere is, the more I'm likely to dislike that character. The more witty and "blushing denial" a tsundere is, the more I'm likely to like that character.

A well-written male tsundere would be Kyon, of Haruhi Suzumiya fame.

I would say that the character that captures tsundere the best of them all is actually not even an anime character. It's Timmverse/DCAU's Lois Lane.

I'm not a big fan of many yanderes. But I think a yandere I would like well would be one that is well-developed and has "normal" characterization in most respects, but has a real obsession with the object of her affections. The obsession should be played as creepy, and disturbing, and very emotional. I prefer that over it being sugarcoated and/or played strictly for laughs.

Fireminer · 2013-11-03, 21:26

Tsundere, Yandere - What is the matter? As an art, Anime must always aim to the Perfection Infinite of Life - Or Poly-Dimension character if you like. Every Art has its own distinct types, but as I see it, the overuse of Archertype and Stock Character is one of Anime's most ashamed failure.

That said, my ideal girl would be the fuse of both Tsundere/Yandere, or polar-sided Mayadere. Someone fused by passion, ideals,... Plus a bit of greedy and possesive - for Love is as complicated as Life itself.

Archon_Wing · 2013-11-03, 21:41

The problem is that X-dere is usually reminiscent of mental illness and a good balance is required to make the character seem more human as opposed to some blatant sociopath that gets away with what he/she does because they're 2-d and pretty. Well that happens in real life too, but that still doesn't make a good character.

In general, they need to be more than a gag. You know the drill, their love intrest does something stupid that they may or may not deserve a beating, but they get beat up and blah blah blah. Of course, characters of any kind are bad when they're defined by just showing up, expressing their defined trait, and that just being it, but truth is a bad quiet girl such as say Inori from Guilty Crown just remains ineffectual. A bad tsundere or yandere makes the whole show unwatchable because it's just full of hysterics. I mean sure, I like to make fun of Yui from K-on or whatnot, but compared to the combos found in Oreimo... oh no bashing. We'll just leave it at that!

If you actually want a tsundere I like, you could try Rin Tohsaka from Fate/Stay Night (or Deen/Stay Night since I hear the VN is diffrent) because it actually actively matches her fierce personality that has to deal with her having to develop certain "detatched" social graces as she is the heir to a family, then it obviously makes sense that her character is like that. As you can see I don't really have any problem with characters acting abrasively, but it's supposed to add flavor to their personality as opposed to say the Kugrie clone line where it becomes a defining trait. (Well, Shana is fine, but JC Staff's attempts to clone her have led to some pretty scary mutants).

I also thought Anaru from Anohana was a good tsundere, if you'd consider all the awkardness and tension she has with Jintan. Normally I'd hate such silly antics, but the fact that the show played it so fucking straight up it became endearing. It was cheesy in the good way, and there were some legitimately funny, and mutually embarassing moments where it was easy to get where both sides were coming from.

Kurisu is of course so good that I don't even think she's a tsundere, but this is helped largely by her interactions with Okabe, and honestly who wouldn't want to lash out at that guy's behavior.

Misato from Evangelion has some signs of tsundere I feel since she seriously acts testy around her love , though said relationship is not merely just some throwaway crush but a relationship that really defines who they are and causes actual pain beyond your normal teen angst and bullshit. I understand when people think tsundere and Eva they think of Ms. German Chest beater, but hey these terms are so arbitary anyways, and fans tend to not like to stick their favorite characters in an easily defined archetype that causes these conflicts in the first place.

0utf0xZer0 · 2013-11-04, 18:56

Man, it's hard to find a good definition of "tsuntsun" out there. So far today I've come across:
"to turn away in disgust"
"aloof and irritable"
"snappy and sarcastic"

So fair warning: I'm not entirely sure if "cold shoulder" counts as a variety of "tsuntsun" though I'm personally inclined to say it can.

I have the feeling a lot of posters here are going to be speaking highly of more mature tsundere characters like the aforementioned Kurisu and Rin Tohsaka. Personally, I'd cite characters like Ever 17's Tsugumi Komachi, Bakemonogatari's Hitagi, Otome Youkai Zakuro's Zakuro maybe even (as a very mild example) Spice and Wolf's Horo as personal favourites. And some of my favourite younger tsunderes like Ore no Imouto's Kuroneko and Inu x Boku SS's Ririchiyo come across as mature because of their level of sophistication. And I think that that extra bit of maturity or sophistication helps their fans like them.

So what about the less mature crowd tsunderes?

An example of a tsundere I don't like would be Cecelia Alcott from Infinite Stratos. I find her shrill and annoying in both "tsun" and "dere" modes. And I don't like Ore no Imouto's Kirino, whose tsun side seems to more or less amount to her being a jerk to her brother. I also tend to dislike tsundere's who frequently resort to violence - especially if they show few regrets, ie. Zero no Tsukaima's Louise.

On the other hand, I like Charlotte Belew in Unbreakable Machine Doll. Sure, she's a bit of a jerk to the main character, but she also helps him out at times, and when she does it comes across as noble, maybe even a bit sincere. And on the whole I just have to say she's not as shrill as Cecilia or as much of a jerk as Kirino.

Oddly, I also have one exception to the rule about tsundere who frequently resort to violence, which is Toradora's Taiga. Her being a "super short girl with an even shorter fuse" is a running gag, and it's probably a testament to Toradora's good writing that the show doesn't completely wear it out. I also think that Toradora is way more effective a making Taiga a sympathetic character than many of its competitors, which I chalk up to it being a deeper show.

Sackett · 2013-11-04, 22:47

I think some more thought should be put into why these personality types are enticing.

Consider the Yandere. Most people identify the wish fulfillment nature of a woman being hopelessly devoted to you and obsessed with you. Thus most people identify the "mild" Yandere as the most attractive type of Yandere.

I disagree. While the flattery of an attractive woman being devoted to you is certainly part of the appeal, it's not the main thing that makes a Yandere attractive. The main thing that makes a Yandere attractive is how needy she is. She needs you. Only you can help her with her demons. That allows you to be a hero. I think that is what makes a Yandere attractive. Therefor the most attractive Yandere are those that combine deserving being saved, with how needy they are for someone to save them. Mild Yandere are often more deserving, but those with particularly tragic back stories can be both extreme and deserving of being saved. Add in being truly devoted (as opposed to a selfish possessiveness) and you hit the trifecta of Yandere attractiveness.

The most perfect Yandere I've seen to hit these three notes is Yuno Gasai. She's so pitiable, you want to save her. She's so devoted, she truly cares for her target. She's also so very needy... to the point that she is absolutely terrifying - yet at the same time that means that saving her certainly will require bravery, and be heroic. It's no wonder that Yuno is often dubbed the Queen of Yandere.

Tsundere appeal is a bit more complicated. Part of it is again simple wish fulfillment: That girl I like doesn't really hate me, she's just being Tsundere. If I try hard enough and am deserving enough I can win her heart.

Other aspects include Tsundere acts being evidence of a innocent heart, and an idealistic nature. Sure, she may act cynical and hardhearted, but underneath it all she still believes in true love and courtly romance. (The related concept of the melting ice queen also has this aspect).

A major appeal is that winning the heart of a Tsundere requires effort, patience, and determination. The more difficult the obstacles, the greater the joy in the reward. Only a deserving man can win her heart, and what man doesn't want to think that he can be the one to win her? "Faint heart never won fair lady!"

Which is probably why a Tsundere so often gets paired with guys that are "losers" in the surface measurement of the world. He's a weakling (Keitaro from Love Hina) or a jerk (Inuyasha/Ranma), but the Tsundere eventually learns about the heart of gold underneath the exterior. Just as the guy sees her true inner nature (innocent and kind) underneath all the tsuntsun, so too the Tsundere can see the hidden goodness in the guy. Dogged Nice Guys have a better chance with a Tsundere then with most other girls.

Additionally, even higher socially ranked men can find a Tsundere attractive because she resists. Maybe a man doesn't want a submissive girl, maybe he wants a partner. A woman who will correct him and argue with him, and in general make him a better man.

Thus what makes a Tsundere attractive is her strength of character, her idealistic nature, and the way she values a man's inner character above superficial attributes. Who then are the best Tsundere? Kyoko Otonashi (Maison Ikkoku), Akane Tendo (Ranma 1/2), Aoba (Cross Game), Haqua (The World God Only Knows), Mikoto Misaka (A Certain Magical Index), Kaname Chidori (Full Metal Panic), and many more.

My personal favorite? Felli Loss (Chrome Shelled Regios). Interestingly enough, she's my favorite not because I'm attracted to her, but because I identify with her. Not only for personality reasons (she's an introvert like me- unlike most Tsundere), but because of the three aspects listed above she comes across as a flawed but good person.

Turn these thoughts around to find why some Yandere and Tsundere are no good:

Yandere that are just selfish instead of devoted, undeserving of being saved, or really don't need the hero to fix whatever is broken inside them? Yeah... she's going to be a hated character.

Tsundere that lack a good character, are not innocent or idealistic, or value superficial attributes above substance? Failure, who'd want a girl like that? She comes across as a spoiled brat, and will be hated.

Archon_Wing · 2013-11-05, 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Tsundere appeal is a bit more complicated. Part of it is again simple wish fulfillment: That girl I like doesn't really hate me, she's just being Tsundere. If I try hard enough and am deserving enough I can win her heart.

Other aspects include Tsundere acts being evidence of a innocent heart, and an idealistic nature. Sure, she may act cynical and hardhearted, but underneath it all she still believes in true love and courtly romance. (The related concept of the melting ice queen also has this aspect).

A major appeal is that winning the heart of a Tsundere requires effort, patience, and determination. The more difficult the obstacles, the greater the joy in the reward. Only a deserving man can win her heart, and what man doesn't want to think that he can be the one to win her? "Faint heart never won fair lady!"

I think this is the general appeal of X-dere characters. I refer to them as that because pretty much any -dere revolves around the appeal that it takes effort and patience to get down to who they truly are as opposed to the front they put up.

teja208 · 2013-11-05, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Spoiler for length:

Thanks @Sackett. I can totally relate to your post here. It's good to see you put much thought into this.

So basically a good yandere is someone we audience can sympathized with despite her extreme behavior, and by adding well written backstory to justify her behavior helps.

Tsundere is indeed more complicated, but I agree with the last part. The part where a good tsundere must be able to judge the man she’s interested in beyond their superficial (baka) exterior. She must not only recognize that inner part of the MC, but also values them. I think this aspect contributes a lot for a more natural progression of relationship as both tsundere and her partner tries to understand each other better leading to them to start treating each other better as the story progress. Bad tsundere IMO, usually comes off as almost always tsuntsun and they stay that way despite how much time she spent with the MC.

erneiz_hyde · 2013-11-05, 08:16

I'll just drop a couple trivia points concerning tsundere here.
Another point on the attractiveness of a tsundere is the gap between their swings. An example of the so called gap-moe.
Also iirc, some of the 2ch folks refer to the 9:1 tsun:dere ratio as the golden ratio.

It's getting rare to see the original tsundere; the ones that started tsun but eventually went completely dere. I myself wonder why this trope evolved the way it did. Maybe because Japanese otakus are mostly M?

Quote:

Originally Posted by teja208

Bad tsundere IMO, usually comes off as almost always tsuntsun and they stay that way despite how much time she spent with the MC.

This reminds me of a point. Some people might think it's mispelling, but tsundora is an otaku term that refers to tsunderes that never dere, just as tundras are ever-cold plains.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-11-06, 00:13

I just want to add that I think the objective of the creators isn't always the same for every kind of work, and the context is pretty important.

People in this thread are tending to complain whenever the character's mannerisms are extreme, exaggerated, and one-noted, but sometimes this also matches the tone of the work in question. Particularly when we're talking shounen romantic comedies, the excesses of the tsundere character are often played as a gag that you're not necessarily supposed to take seriously. Of course, these are gags that some people don't find funny, and this taints their experience; sometimes it means that the viewer can't take the character seriously or sympathize them when the story later calls for it. But that doesn't mean they may not in fact be a perfectly fine character for the work in question, and even attract a lot of popularity/fans, even if another group of viewers simply can't stand them. Sometimes the "good characters" aren't the ones people remember most, and in that sense making them "better characters" may not have done the work in question as much good as people might want to argue. There isn't just one "good character" formula, even within a given "trope family".

Darthtabby · 2013-11-06, 00:34

A lot of my favorite anime girls are tsunderes, but in spite of that I'm not finding this exercise overly easy.

In general, I think a well written tsundere character should come across as believable and human. I'm generally not too into characters who demonstrate extreme tsundere behaviour unless there's a good reason for it. (An example of a character with a good reason for extreme tsundere behaviour is Yusa Emi from Hataraku Maou-Sama. She realizes that Maou has become a good person since being forced to live among humans on earth, but that doesn't change what happened when he was a demon king on Ente Isla.)

I also find that most of my favorite tsunderes are very kind and compassionate -they just tend to be rather tempermental at times. So perhaps part of the reason why I like them is that they are very passionate. Also I like kind and compassionate characters, but not unbelievably perfect ones. Tsunderes usually aren't perfect, so they can be immensely kind and compassionate and still be believable.

Also, it occurs to me that a lot of my favorite tsunderes have rather horrible backstories.

Arya · 2013-11-06, 05:18

Sackett's post summed up quite perfectly what I think the definition of a tsundere is and what is appealing about tsunderes.
I would just add a connotation that is that tsundere are usually independent (by choice or by force), trait that add up with the concept expressed by Sackett of finding a partner and not a submissive girl, someone to grow with and not someone to raise up.
Independent and/or that are very good in a specific field or more than one.
Aoba is quite one of a kind in terms of baseball female players, Rin Tohsaka is a strong sorceress, Yukino from Oregairu is perfect sort of, in this season in WA2 Touma is an excellent pianist, yet-to-be-heard composer and she lives alone. Each of them has some perfection and / or sad back history to balance / support / justify the tsun side / harshness. Oh and they have to have black hair. (Asuka is an exception).
Everything to make them look like a perfect monolith, apparently without openings. They are like the opposite of an open book.
So for them to be appealing an interesting they need these traits. For the same reason I find the Shana's carbon copies really unappealing, because they are stylized /distorted tsunderes taken to the extreme. They act like tsundere, but lack in their true essence.

If we talk about yandere, well it's harder to explain. Honestly I have only two / three examples in mind, one of those doesn't fit the actual definition I guess, because she was quite realistic in her development from your osananajimi to yandere. So I can count Nanami from Katanagatari and obviously Yuno from Mirai Nikki. And what I find amusing about them is that they are over the top. They are incredibly strong, smart and still they are so obsessed by their target to sacrifice everything. So I naturally cheer for them, because I know that they will lose. But the travel is worthy despite the expected outcome. Unless normal romance stories, IMHO. I have a slight preference for Nanami because she wasn't the MC and Yuno's target was really unbearable (even despite the end giving me a sort of satisfaction.

)

Fireminer · 2013-11-06, 05:30

The Imperfection in the shell of Perfection, that is what I think of dere. Kind of like there are no hero or villant. They are just archertype of each kind of man.

Chiibi · 2013-11-06, 12:15

I really hate yandere because they make women look so weak and pathetic...the poster children of anti-feminism(well, I hate male yandere too because desperate men are like the biggest turn-off ever lol) but I LOVE both female and male tsundere characters like crazy.

To make a good tsundere is to balance the tsun and the dere. Don't have too much "tsun"...or you get Kirino. >_> It is also best to show the tsundere's "tsun" through cold words instead of constant merciless violence. (this is why male tsundere are generally more likable than the female ones) And of course, you need to develop your tsundere properly. They shouldn't flip-flop once you have developed them and brought out the dere. In little ways that's fine but nothing really jarring that would make you go "wtf where did that character development go!?"

Quote:

I also find that most of my favorite tsunderes are very kind and compassionate -they just tend to be rather tempermental at times. So perhaps part of the reason why I like them is that they are very passionate.

Yes.

What I love about them is how when the tsundere does something nice, it's really, REALLY nice. Always more than makes up for those tempermental outbursts.

Traece · 2013-11-07, 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

This reminds me of a point. Some people might think it's mispelling, but tsundora is an otaku term that refers to tsunderes that never dere, just as tundras are ever-cold plains.

I got a laugh out of this. Part of me wants to just frame this comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I just want to add that I think the objective of the creators isn't always the same for every kind of work, and the context is pretty important.

People in this thread are tending to complain whenever the character's mannerisms are extreme, exaggerated, and one-noted, but sometimes this also matches the tone of the work in question. Particularly when we're talking shounen romantic comedies, the excesses of the tsundere character are often played as a gag that you're not necessarily supposed to take seriously. Of course, these are gags that some people don't find funny, and this taints their experience; sometimes it means that the viewer can't take the character seriously or sympathize them when the story later calls for it. But that doesn't mean they may not in fact be a perfectly fine character for the work in question, and even attract a lot of popularity/fans, even if another group of viewers simply can't stand them. Sometimes the "good characters" aren't the ones people remember most, and in that sense making them "better characters" may not have done the work in question as much good as people might want to argue. There isn't just one "good character" formula, even within a given "trope family".

I agree that this can sometimes be the case, but at the same time I feel that if the actions of the tsundere are so universally bothersome then it means that something was done wrong. I don't mind typical tsundere stuff as gags. It works in shows like Railgun, Hayate no Gotoku!, Full Metal Panic, Hataraku Maou-sama, and so on. The common denominator here is that all of these shows have comedy elements (Railgun is a slight exception, however the 'tsundere' elements are typically utilized for comedy since it's not a romance series), and typically the heroines are tsunderes specifically for the comedy (as well as dragging the romance out).

It's the ink blot question. Who comes to mind when you think of a tsundere? We'll come back to that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Yes.

What I love about them is how when the tsundere does something nice, it's really, REALLY nice. Always more than makes up for those tempermental outbursts.

This pretty much sums up a right and proper tsundere in my mind.

Charl from Machine-Dolls is my example from this season. It's pretty obvious from the start that she's tsundere-esque in her actions. The signs are there (and she's blonde

). What she isn't, is stupid, violent, and lacking of awareness. She's friendly, caring, a tad shy, even violent, but ultimately has a very reserved character.

So when you think inkblot tsunderes, who comes to mind? KugiRie. Specifically her characters Louise and Taiga, and to a lesser extent Shana (she's not nearly as irrational or violent, but it's there) often come to mind. There's a reason why these characters are the Godwin's Law of anime character discussions. You can't talk about tsunderes without invoking KugiRie, and that's because for many these characters define tsundere. The issue is that these characters are in very confused shows. Shana, Toradora!, and Zero no Tsukaima wantonly flip the line of drama and 'comedy'. The tsundere in these shows is not comic relief. Shockingly, it's a part of the story. These characters are written with their awkwardness and complete inability to be anything but grating and horrible people as part of the drama of the show. The only comic relief here is that when I'm done I'm going to smash my head against a wall with gusto.

So as Relentless said, context. Additionally, there's a line that need not be crossed (It looks a lot like Taiga. Imagine that!)

As far as Yanderes go I have little experience with these characters to draw on. What little I've seen leaves me to believe that the real issue with yanderes isn't the yanderes themselves, but how they're treated. Most of the yanderes I've seen have been trivialized into the background, and don't make any real yandere-fueled impact until the very end. The fact that they don't get taken seriously by the rest of the cast is what seems to be their issue. What we need is an anime where the main character's devotion to his yandere lover is so great that he's willing to cover up her jealous, yandere-jealousy-induced murders for the sake of his ability to be with her.

You thought Death Note was good? That has the potential to mop the floor with it.

teja208 · 2013-11-07, 03:51

I think that the reason some people dislike KugiRie tsundere has to do more with how unfairly they treat their man rather than just about their personality. Shana may not be as bad compare to other examples, but in general, most of KugiRie tsunderes treat the MC like a lesser being (e.g. pet, servent, personal belonging), and they don't usually listen to reason no matter how much the MC tries to explain himself. Not only that, when things starts getting drama, they are usually very insecure, clingly and overdependent on the MC instead of trying to be more independent and trust the MC. Some of them could be justifed such as Taiga, but in general, tsundere character presented in this manner just don't click well with certain group of people.

So IMO, a better tusnderes usually come off as more independent but latter they learn to rely, but not becoming overdependent, on the MC as she know him better. They also don't treat the MC like they own him or constantly abuse him like he's a piece of garbage whenever he pisses her off. A good example of this is Misaka Mikoto, who is usually independent and violant toward Touma, but threats him like an equal (as in a worthy opponent sort of...). Rin Tosaka is another good example.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-11-07, 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traece

I feel that if the actions of the tsundere are so universally bothersome then it means that something was done wrong. [...] The issue is that these characters are in very confused shows. Shana, Toradora!, and Zero no Tsukaima wantonly flip the line of drama and 'comedy'. The tsundere in these shows is not comic relief. Shockingly, it's a part of the story. These characters are written with their awkwardness and complete inability to be anything but grating and horrible people as part of the drama of the show. The only comic relief here is that when I'm done I'm going to smash my head against a wall with gusto.

If we're going to go with extreme examples, might as well pull out all the stops and go with one of the more specific and pronounced ones (even if it's non-canon):

Spoiler for Ore no Imouto, First Season, Episode 12, "Good End" version; summary:

Spoiler for Discussion of above scene:

So it's not really that the violent outbursts are always meant as gags where we're supposed to laugh them off (though in some other cases they are). But at the same time, even in this example, the main focus isn't the violent act or any concept of a risk of harm (like the infamous Naru Punch, we're not supposed to worry about where he lands unless the story makes that a point as a twist), but rather the conflicted nature of the tsundere heroine's feelings and the internal battle they face between their high pride and their true (usually "lowly") desires. And it's understanding and focusing on those glimpses of their true feelings (and interpreting their behaviour in that light) that can let you see the character as more than just "a grating and horrible person", though clearly they have some rather major flaws.

In other words, as I was alluding to before, the consensus of this thread would seem to be that the "best tsundere characters" are those who tend most towards balanced, normal, or reasonable (it's almost more to the level that they're simply playing hard to get). But sometimes the most memorable and noteworthy tsundere heroines are those whose outward behaviour is dialed to 11 while still driving home the intensity of their internal conflict. Appreciating these characters is a matter of perspective and, perhaps, taste; I don't necessarily think that fans of these characters are necessarily applauding the bad behaviour, but it just isn't where their focus lies. It can probably only happen in this 2D world where you understand that, fundamentally, it's all based on falling in love.

(And to be clear, I'm not saying any of this will make people here like these characters more. But perhaps it may help to explain why not everyone sees them as outright "bad characters", and why they can still have a good deal of popularity.)

Arya · 2013-11-07, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

[...]
So it's not really that the violent outbursts are always meant as gags where we're supposed to laugh them off (though in some other cases they are). But at the same time, even in this example, the main focus isn't the violent act or any concept of a risk of harm (like the infamous Naru Punch, we're not supposed to worry about where he lands unless the story makes that a point as a twist), but rather the conflicted nature of the tsundere heroine's feelings and the internal battle they face between their high pride and their true (usually "lowly") desires. And it's understanding and focusing on those glimpses of their true feelings (and interpreting their behaviour in that light) that can let you see the character as more than just "a grating and horrible person", though clearly they have some rather major flaws.

Don't take me too seriously, but I'd go farther saying that this example you cited contradicts the be a tsundere. I mean, in my book a tsundere would never beg for being asked to stay. Neither she would insist on the matter. So in this case she comes off as a spoiled brat instead of anything else.
And where is the dere-ness that usually comes after the tsun-ness? the dere-ness is so subtly implied to nullify the pay-off this kind of dynamics should provide. Even taking in account that it's a comedy. Or in other words

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Yes.

What I love about them is how when the tsundere does something nice, it's really, REALLY nice. Always more than makes up for those tempermental outbursts.

So, if I had to address the real issue it would be not that these are "bad tsundere", the fact is that they are not tsundere. And I know that in this case probably the pow is particular since these are family dynamics so they are supposed to be more extreme in a way. Still I think that these type of tsundere share only the violence side with the tsundere that I have in mind.

Again, I'm not trying to define anything, I don't really mind if they are called tsundere or not. What I know is that when I see a loli-tsundere I generally pass.

teja208 · 2013-11-07, 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

If we're going to go with extreme examples, might as well pull out all the stops and go with one of the more specific and pronounced ones (even if it's non-canon):

Spoiler for Ore no Imouto, First Season, Episode 12, "Good End" version; summary:

Spoiler for Discussion of above scene:

So it's not really that the violent outbursts are always meant as gags where we're supposed to laugh them off (though in some other cases they are). But at the same time, even in this example, the main focus isn't the violent act or any concept of a risk of harm (like the infamous Naru Punch, we're not supposed to worry about where he lands unless the story makes that a point as a twist), but rather the conflicted nature of the tsundere heroine's feelings and the internal battle they face between their high pride and their true (usually "lowly") desires. And it's understanding and focusing on those glimpses of their true feelings (and interpreting their behaviour in that light) that can let you see the character as more than just "a grating and horrible person", though clearly they have some rather major flaws.

In other words, as I was alluding to before, the consensus of this thread would seem to be that the "best tsundere characters" are those who tend most towards balanced, normal, or reasonable (it's almost more to the level that they're simply playing hard to get). But sometimes the most memorable and noteworthy tsundere heroines are those whose outward behaviour is dialed to 11 while still driving home the intensity of their internal conflict. Appreciating these characters is a matter of perspective and, perhaps, taste; I don't necessarily think that fans of these characters are necessarily applauding the bad behaviour, but it just isn't where their focus lies. It can probably only happen in this 2D world where you understand that, fundamentally, it's all based on falling in love.

(And to be clear, I'm not saying any of this will make people here like these characters more. But perhaps it may help to explain why not everyone sees them as outright "bad characters", and why they can still have a good deal of popularity.)

I see. At first I’m not sure where you’re going from your first post, but now I see that you’re trying to play Devil’s Advocate to those who dismiss the likes of KugiRie tsundere and by extension Kirino from Oreimo as bad tsundere character. I don't mind people who like these characters of course, but more importantly, you’re also trying to elaborate why some people could find these extremely violent tsunderes appealing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Maybe because Japanese otakus are mostly M?

LMAO I may not be one of these people, but surely, not everyone who are into this type of character are mindless M-guys (and S-girls). They had better reasons for that as mentioned @Relentlessflame trying to illustrate using Kirino as an example.

From my previous post I talked about how people who dislike KugiRie type tsundere in general seems to place more importance on how fairly said tsundere treats her love interest. They will not tolerate if the tsundere’s treatment of her man crosses the line into what they perceive as selfish and abusive territory (same goes with yandere). On the other hand, there’re also those who wouldn’t mind them and are willing to look passes that violent nature, and try to come up with some good explanation that, in their minds, could justify those actions. For these fans, they will still find the tusndere character appealing as long as they’re able to justify the tusndere's violent/abusive nature or see some deeper meaning behind those actions. That or they can just find it funny.

2013-11-03, 11:35	Link #1
teja208 Critical fanboy Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine	Opinion of what makes a good tsundere/yandere characters? I heard a lot of people claiming they're into certain character that falls under these two archetypes but dislike other character of the same archetype. I also seen a few who claim they normally would dislike these archetypes with exception of character X. This is why I decided to create this thread, so that people can share and discuss their own criteria for judging good and/or bad tsundere/yandere characters. Keep in mind that everyone of us has different set of tastes and standards for when it comes to character they like or dislike so try to respect each others’ opinion. By all means, you may give examples of characters you like or dislike, but no character bashing or wife claiming please. I don’t wish to hear things like this,” I just don’t get how can someone think Character A is the better than that Character B. CHARACTER A IS FU*KING CRAP! CHARACTER B IS MY WIFE! HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY WIFE?! CHARACTER A CAN JUST DIE FOR ALL I CARE!!!” Well, if you got the massage. Please proceed.

2013-11-03, 11:45	Link #2
Revan21 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Middle of Nowhere Age: 39	I like tsunderes that act cold only in the beginning then steadily warm up to the guy and become more dere. And stays that way when they are together, although she may act cold in front of others to keep up apperances or whatever! I hate the type that unreasonably switches back and forth between the two. __________________

2013-11-03, 21:19	Link #3
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	Steins;Gate's Kurisu Makise is probably the best written tsundere I've seen in the last few years. My ideal tsundere is someone who's sharp and assertive, but has difficulty admitting her/his feelings for someone that s/he has a crush on. I prefer the tsundere that is slightly snarky to her/his object of affection, and shyly denies his/her feelings for that person. I typically prefer that to a very loud and/or violent tsundere. Basically, the more physically violent and overall abusive a tsundere is, the more I'm likely to dislike that character. The more witty and "blushing denial" a tsundere is, the more I'm likely to like that character. A well-written male tsundere would be Kyon, of Haruhi Suzumiya fame. I would say that the character that captures tsundere the best of them all is actually not even an anime character. It's Timmverse/DCAU's Lois Lane. I'm not a big fan of many yanderes. But I think a yandere I would like well would be one that is well-developed and has "normal" characterization in most respects, but has a real obsession with the object of her affections. The obsession should be played as creepy, and disturbing, and very emotional. I prefer that over it being sugarcoated and/or played strictly for laughs. __________________

2013-11-04, 18:56	Link #6
0utf0xZer0 Pretentious moe scholar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver, Canada Age: 37	Man, it's hard to find a good definition of "tsuntsun" out there. So far today I've come across: "to turn away in disgust" "aloof and irritable" "snappy and sarcastic" So fair warning: I'm not entirely sure if "cold shoulder" counts as a variety of "tsuntsun" though I'm personally inclined to say it can. I have the feeling a lot of posters here are going to be speaking highly of more mature tsundere characters like the aforementioned Kurisu and Rin Tohsaka. Personally, I'd cite characters like Ever 17's Tsugumi Komachi, Bakemonogatari's Hitagi, Otome Youkai Zakuro's Zakuro maybe even (as a very mild example) Spice and Wolf's Horo as personal favourites. And some of my favourite younger tsunderes like Ore no Imouto's Kuroneko and Inu x Boku SS's Ririchiyo come across as mature because of their level of sophistication. And I think that that extra bit of maturity or sophistication helps their fans like them. So what about the less mature crowd tsunderes? An example of a tsundere I don't like would be Cecelia Alcott from Infinite Stratos. I find her shrill and annoying in both "tsun" and "dere" modes. And I don't like Ore no Imouto's Kirino, whose tsun side seems to more or less amount to her being a jerk to her brother. I also tend to dislike tsundere's who frequently resort to violence - especially if they show few regrets, ie. Zero no Tsukaima's Louise. On the other hand, I like Charlotte Belew in Unbreakable Machine Doll. Sure, she's a bit of a jerk to the main character, but she also helps him out at times, and when she does it comes across as noble, maybe even a bit sincere. And on the whole I just have to say she's not as shrill as Cecilia or as much of a jerk as Kirino. Oddly, I also have one exception to the rule about tsundere who frequently resort to violence, which is Toradora's Taiga. Her being a "super short girl with an even shorter fuse" is a running gag, and it's probably a testament to Toradora's good writing that the show doesn't completely wear it out. I also think that Toradora is way more effective a making Taiga a sympathetic character than many of its competitors, which I chalk up to it being a deeper show. __________________ Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.

2013-11-04, 22:47	Link #7
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	I think some more thought should be put into why these personality types are enticing. Consider the Yandere. Most people identify the wish fulfillment nature of a woman being hopelessly devoted to you and obsessed with you. Thus most people identify the "mild" Yandere as the most attractive type of Yandere. I disagree. While the flattery of an attractive woman being devoted to you is certainly part of the appeal, it's not the main thing that makes a Yandere attractive. The main thing that makes a Yandere attractive is how needy she is. She needs you. Only you can help her with her demons. That allows you to be a hero. I think that is what makes a Yandere attractive. Therefor the most attractive Yandere are those that combine deserving being saved, with how needy they are for someone to save them. Mild Yandere are often more deserving, but those with particularly tragic back stories can be both extreme and deserving of being saved. Add in being truly devoted (as opposed to a selfish possessiveness) and you hit the trifecta of Yandere attractiveness. The most perfect Yandere I've seen to hit these three notes is Yuno Gasai. She's so pitiable, you want to save her. She's so devoted, she truly cares for her target. She's also so very needy... to the point that she is absolutely terrifying - yet at the same time that means that saving her certainly will require bravery, and be heroic. It's no wonder that Yuno is often dubbed the Queen of Yandere. Tsundere appeal is a bit more complicated. Part of it is again simple wish fulfillment: That girl I like doesn't really hate me, she's just being Tsundere. If I try hard enough and am deserving enough I can win her heart. Other aspects include Tsundere acts being evidence of a innocent heart, and an idealistic nature. Sure, she may act cynical and hardhearted, but underneath it all she still believes in true love and courtly romance. (The related concept of the melting ice queen also has this aspect). A major appeal is that winning the heart of a Tsundere requires effort, patience, and determination. The more difficult the obstacles, the greater the joy in the reward. Only a deserving man can win her heart, and what man doesn't want to think that he can be the one to win her? "Faint heart never won fair lady!" Which is probably why a Tsundere so often gets paired with guys that are "losers" in the surface measurement of the world. He's a weakling (Keitaro from Love Hina) or a jerk (Inuyasha/Ranma), but the Tsundere eventually learns about the heart of gold underneath the exterior. Just as the guy sees her true inner nature (innocent and kind) underneath all the tsuntsun, so too the Tsundere can see the hidden goodness in the guy. Dogged Nice Guys have a better chance with a Tsundere then with most other girls. Additionally, even higher socially ranked men can find a Tsundere attractive because she resists. Maybe a man doesn't want a submissive girl, maybe he wants a partner. A woman who will correct him and argue with him, and in general make him a better man. Thus what makes a Tsundere attractive is her strength of character, her idealistic nature, and the way she values a man's inner character above superficial attributes. Who then are the best Tsundere? Kyoko Otonashi (Maison Ikkoku), Akane Tendo (Ranma 1/2), Aoba (Cross Game), Haqua (The World God Only Knows), Mikoto Misaka (A Certain Magical Index), Kaname Chidori (Full Metal Panic), and many more. My personal favorite? Felli Loss (Chrome Shelled Regios). Interestingly enough, she's my favorite not because I'm attracted to her, but because I identify with her. Not only for personality reasons (she's an introvert like me- unlike most Tsundere), but because of the three aspects listed above she comes across as a flawed but good person. Turn these thoughts around to find why some Yandere and Tsundere are no good: Yandere that are just selfish instead of devoted, undeserving of being saved, or really don't need the hero to fix whatever is broken inside them? Yeah... she's going to be a hated character. Tsundere that lack a good character, are not innocent or idealistic, or value superficial attributes above substance? Failure, who'd want a girl like that? She comes across as a spoiled brat, and will be hated. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want?

2013-11-03, 21:26	Link #4
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Tsundere, Yandere - What is the matter? As an art, Anime must always aim to the Perfection Infinite of Life - Or Poly-Dimension character if you like. Every Art has its own distinct types, but as I see it, the overuse of Archertype and Stock Character is one of Anime's most ashamed failure. That said, my ideal girl would be the fuse of both Tsundere/Yandere, or polar-sided Mayadere. Someone fused by passion, ideals,... Plus a bit of greedy and possesive - for Love is as complicated as Life itself.

2013-11-06, 00:13	Link #11
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	I just want to add that I think the objective of the creators isn't always the same for every kind of work, and the context is pretty important. People in this thread are tending to complain whenever the character's mannerisms are extreme, exaggerated, and one-noted, but sometimes this also matches the tone of the work in question. Particularly when we're talking shounen romantic comedies, the excesses of the tsundere character are often played as a gag that you're not necessarily supposed to take seriously. Of course, these are gags that some people don't find funny, and this taints their experience; sometimes it means that the viewer can't take the character seriously or sympathize them when the story later calls for it. But that doesn't mean they may not in fact be a perfectly fine character for the work in question, and even attract a lot of popularity/fans, even if another group of viewers simply can't stand them. Sometimes the "good characters" aren't the ones people remember most, and in that sense making them "better characters" may not have done the work in question as much good as people might want to argue. There isn't just one "good character" formula, even within a given "trope family". __________________ [...]

2013-11-06, 00:34	Link #12
Darthtabby Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	A lot of my favorite anime girls are tsunderes, but in spite of that I'm not finding this exercise overly easy. In general, I think a well written tsundere character should come across as believable and human. I'm generally not too into characters who demonstrate extreme tsundere behaviour unless there's a good reason for it. (An example of a character with a good reason for extreme tsundere behaviour is Yusa Emi from Hataraku Maou-Sama. She realizes that Maou has become a good person since being forced to live among humans on earth, but that doesn't change what happened when he was a demon king on Ente Isla.) I also find that most of my favorite tsunderes are very kind and compassionate -they just tend to be rather tempermental at times. So perhaps part of the reason why I like them is that they are very passionate. Also I like kind and compassionate characters, but not unbelievably perfect ones. Tsunderes usually aren't perfect, so they can be immensely kind and compassionate and still be believable. Also, it occurs to me that a lot of my favorite tsunderes have rather horrible backstories.

2013-11-06, 05:18	Link #13
Arya Senior Member Join Date: May 2004	Sackett's post summed up quite perfectly what I think the definition of a tsundere is and what is appealing about tsunderes. I would just add a connotation that is that tsundere are usually independent (by choice or by force), trait that add up with the concept expressed by Sackett of finding a partner and not a submissive girl, someone to grow with and not someone to raise up. Independent and/or that are very good in a specific field or more than one. Aoba is quite one of a kind in terms of baseball female players, Rin Tohsaka is a strong sorceress, Yukino from Oregairu is perfect sort of, in this season in WA2 Touma is an excellent pianist, yet-to-be-heard composer and she lives alone. Each of them has some perfection and / or sad back history to balance / support / justify the tsun side / harshness. Oh and they have to have black hair. (Asuka is an exception). Everything to make them look like a perfect monolith, apparently without openings. They are like the opposite of an open book. So for them to be appealing an interesting they need these traits. For the same reason I find the Shana's carbon copies really unappealing, because they are stylized /distorted tsunderes taken to the extreme. They act like tsundere, but lack in their true essence. If we talk about yandere, well it's harder to explain. Honestly I have only two / three examples in mind, one of those doesn't fit the actual definition I guess, because she was quite realistic in her development from your osananajimi to yandere. So I can count Nanami from Katanagatari and obviously Yuno from Mirai Nikki. And what I find amusing about them is that they are over the top. They are incredibly strong, smart and still they are so obsessed by their target to sacrifice everything. So I naturally cheer for them, because I know that they will lose. But the travel is worthy despite the expected outcome. Unless normal romance stories, IMHO. I have a slight preference for Nanami because she wasn't the MC and Yuno's target was really unbearable (even despite the end giving me a sort of satisfaction. ) __________________ *The meaning of things lies not in the things themselves, but in our attitude towards them.*

2013-11-06, 05:30	Link #14
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	The Imperfection in the shell of Perfection, that is what I think of dere. Kind of like there are no hero or villant. They are just archertype of each kind of man.

2013-11-07, 03:51	Link #17
teja208 Critical fanboy Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine	I think that the reason some people dislike KugiRie tsundere has to do more with how unfairly they treat their man rather than just about their personality. Shana may not be as bad compare to other examples, but in general, most of KugiRie tsunderes treat the MC like a lesser being (e.g. pet, servent, personal belonging), and they don't usually listen to reason no matter how much the MC tries to explain himself. Not only that, when things starts getting drama, they are usually very insecure, clingly and overdependent on the MC instead of trying to be more independent and trust the MC. Some of them could be justifed such as Taiga, but in general, tsundere character presented in this manner just don't click well with certain group of people. So IMO, a better tusnderes usually come off as more independent but latter they learn to rely, but not becoming overdependent, on the MC as she know him better. They also don't treat the MC like they own him or constantly abuse him like he's a piece of garbage whenever he pisses her off. A good example of this is Misaka Mikoto, who is usually independent and violant toward Touma, but threats him like an equal (as in a worthy opponent sort of...). Rin Tosaka is another good example. Last edited by teja208; 2013-11-07 at 04:03.