2009-01-06, 04:15
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Link #165 |
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Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Well, people who want to challenge her don't know what they're in for. I wonder if the mangaka would do an arc where the challenger, far from being scared by her transformation, instead relishes the challenge, and managed to go toe-to-toe with Kyoko.
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2009-01-07, 13:27
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Link #166 |
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Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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Spoiler for Manga:
Awesome manga =) Ah...I wanna start a discussion on the topic of Kyouko: Is Kyouko a Tsundere? Pros: She denies her feelings; she has a few dere moments when Ren shows the "purifying smile" Cons: Her reasons for denial is not because she's embarrass...but because she really does not want to fall in love. This is more like a summary, as I dont really want to type out a whole essay on this >_>
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2009-01-07, 19:54
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Link #167 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
 Let me join in...I think Kyouko's personality is much too complicated to describe simply. Or rather, a proper discussion about "is Kyouko tsundere" would have to involve defining "what exactly does tsundere mean anyway?" since Kyouko definitely doesn't fit the tsundere stereotype. I tend to think of Kanae as a "tsundere friend" btw  Ren is another complicated one though - tsundere in some ways, but his relationship with Kyouko has gone through distinct phases.Regarding Kyouko and love... I might well be in a small minority here, but I don't think she is "in love" with Ren. Let me explain what I mean... I think we have to treat Kyouko as a special case, and avoid any shojo manga stereotypes. Kyouko has been in love before (with Shou) and those feelings were intense - which is why her hate is so intense. While she never had a proper two-way relationship, she understands love far better than Ren or Kanae. If anything, this is part of the problem - precisely because she has experienced it, she isn't going to experience it again without a great deal of difficulty. Kyouko does confront her feelings pretty directly. She's not afraid to think about and analyse her feelings - though she is definitely afraid to be in love again. I see Kyouko as actively protecting her heart, with her "demons" helping as well (as the author says, they protect her heart like sunblock protects against UV rays). Because of this, I think that if Kyouko ever realised or even suspected she was in love with anyone, it wouldn't make her happy - instead, I wouldn't be surprised to see her try to destroy her feelings of love (!). Realisation certainly wouldn't make her all lovey-dovey (certainly not right away). My personal suspicion is that Kyouko will have to find out that Ren was Corn / Kuon to be able to become properly in love with him. Sounds weird, put that way, but Kyouko still has very positive feelings towards Corn. Her problems with Shou haven't harmed her feelings for Corn. This is not so much about Ren but about Kyouko being able to connect the positive feelings she used to have. Putting it another way, Ren is the only guy in the world who has a past with Kyouko that she sees in a positive light. While I think Kyouko would be very shocked to find out that Ren = Corn, I also expect her to get over that quite quickly - and once she does she might be able to put all the info she has on Corn and Ren together to get a much better understanding of him, and also, she will take all her feelings for Corn and add them to her feelings for Ren. Though I think it would also help if Kyouko came to realise Ren's feelings for her and why he sometimes reacts in ways she doesn't understand and his tendency to tease her. Note: the above is just my best prediction. I'd be surprised if it ended up being quite accurate  So, if she's not in love, what are her current feelings...? It might be best to compare with Ren - who went from disliking her (almost despising her), to seeing (again) some good sides to her and no longer looking down at her, to liking her a bit but not willing to face it, to being willing to face and stand up for his feelings towards her. Kyouko's around stage 2 (of 4) on this, I'd say. Kyouko certainly doesn't dislike Ren anymore, and she respects his acting skills massively - from her point of view she sees them having a strong kyouhai / senpai relationship. Kyouko hasn't picked up on his feelings for her - I don't think this is because she's "slow" but rather because she wouldn't believe anyone could be in love with her. While some might see Kyouko's respect for Ren as being a "cover" for love, remember that Kyouko tends to feel things much more strongly than most people - she gives Kanae some similar super-respect treatment at times. I wonder when Kyouko will start to respect herself properly? I wonder if "Natsu" will help... I also wonder if Kyouko will create a "Neo Kyouko" role, a carefully created person that she would most want to be... and then step into that role permanently (or at least, by default)... rather like Kuon did with "Tsuruga Ren" it seems. One thing I've been thinking about recently is what would Kyouko do if she got a role with some romantic elements. Not necessarily strong, or as a major part of the story, but something romantic. Would she accept the offer (assuming she knows in advance)...? Would she be able to "allow" herself to act some aspects of love, even when she looks down on it herself? I think it would show her progress (in recovering her broken heart) if she was able to do this simply out of acting / professional pride (ie not due to heavy pressure from others or real fears about her career). Since the series started, Kyouko has been able to cure a number of wounds in her heart. She's been able to make friends. She's gotten perfect test results. She's been able to wear makeup. She's learned about parental love. She's been able to proper enjoy Christmas / her birthday. She also seems to like herself more. Her experience with non-romantic love (and similar feelings) has certainly improved. Well, that ended up being a rather long post. Hope others find it interesting. Please add your own thoughts 
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2009-01-07, 23:56
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Link #169 | |
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Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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Quote:
As for Moko, this is her first friend we are talking about, first and best friend, the emotion of such can be compare to that of a lover, and thats why she cried during Shou's PV. Aside from Moko and Ren, there are noone else in the manga that Kyouko showed such affection to. (Shou is there too if you considered "strong" emotions...but hate)
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2009-01-08, 01:01
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Link #171 |
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Former # 47
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the forgotten past
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About Kyoko it's hard to say.... her character has changed a lot throughout the series. As she lets Ren in more she changes some what as well. If you want to classify her character I would say at wich part of the story? As for tsunadere? Mybe more of the traditional type and not the ones we see now.
IE Broken Bird-troupe. Someone who has expierenced some trauma and is now somewhat cynical about certain things. This person used to be idealistic but now is not. Kyoko is sometimes like this in the begining and whenever love comes up.
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2009-01-08, 10:31
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Link #172 |
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エーレンフェストの聖女
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dollars
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I don't think she's tsundere. You know, being tsundere means that you need to have the 'deredere' moments. Here, you'll find that Kyoko were always trying to deny her feelings. It was so great that she almost blocked out every potential love feelings and then create another persoanility and use it for her acting skills. I don't know, for some reason. . I found out that Kyoko's ability are also based of that love experience.
She reminds me of that cursed 4koma doujin of touhou, 'Where's the dere ?' >_>;
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2009-01-10, 14:49
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Link #174 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I also said "I think we have to treat Kyouko as a special case, and avoid any shojo manga stereotypes." Actually, sometimes I feel like the author is trying to tell us that too. It's easy enough to go with the old "she's denying she's in love, therefore it must be true", but that's a "trope" not a law. And Skip Beat rather regularly busts tropes or turns them upside-down and inside-out. Also, there's been a number of people who thought she was in love in Shou and have even asked her - she's denied that too. Doesn't mean she loves Shou as well. Clearly the nature of her denials are different between Ren and Shou... but also to other characters in other series being pressed in this way. Kyouko tends to have quite a "dark" reaction to people asking her if she's in love. To me this is her instinctive reaction to "love" (romantic love) itself - Kyouko wouldn't think it's possible that she could be in love with anyone. I also think that because of that, Kyouko doesn't think about the possibility that anyone could be in love with her. This isn't to do with my feelings for "Ren and Kyouko" - I support them becoming a couple 100%. But there's no need to rush things. Kyouko is quite capable of having extreme reactions to just about anything - notice how depressed she was after being late for the first BOX"R" meeting. I think she's quite capable of having the relationship she currently has with Ren just based on her ideas of a kouhai / senpai relationship. Well, that's just my personal interpretation. I wonder how the series will be when the author ends it - how far with Kyouko and Ren's relationship have come? Will we see some big time-skips (years)? I hope it's a fairly complete ending.
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2009-01-11, 02:37
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Link #175 |
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Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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To other ppls, yes..the denial seems to be the same for both Shou and Ren, but I'm also referring to her self-denial that she's in love. Not once did she deny to herself that she's in love with Shou, because she knows well very she's not. However, when it comes to Ren, she has to find some sort of excuse to bound herself to think that "I'm not in love, i'm still ok". One good example is:
Spoiler for Dark Moon:
Also, there are a lot less heartfelt, tender moments between Shou and Kyouko than Ren and Kyouko, maybe in the future we'll see more of Shou, but as of now, there's no comparsion. I understand that Kyouko shouldn't be "categorized" so easily, that's why I raised this discussion, because even if she doesn't fit perfectly, I feel that she shows many of the same characteristics as a "typical" Tsundere (I define Tsundere as the original kind, not the washdown cheapen version that all these "moe" anime created). As for the manga itself, I really hope Kyouko ends up with Ren, and it seems it will go that way as well. However you can never be too certain as demostrated by Ichigo 100% >_< I feel the same way that as long as the author brings out a "complete" ending, I'll be satisfied. If that ending happens to be Shou, I'll be slightly irritated but satisfied. If the ending ends up with something like School Rumble, I may have to add another person to my "must-kill/torture to death with my demons" list.
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| Tags |
| comedy, shoujo |
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