Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[panzerfan]

I agree with MeoTwister5 on this. I have omitted indeed that Gretchen was redeemed this way in Goethe's rendition of the story. (the rest of the response I am forwarding to the speculation thread since we are deviating from the scope of episodic discussion)

Walpurgisnacht is going to be front and center to the climax of the story. Somehow, I wonder if 'slaying' Sayaka is only a prelude to what's to come.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

should totally team up with Izaya or Beatrice or something.

I think he should be teamed up with Kirino and Tony Stark as the worst character. At least you had fun watching Izaya and Beatrice be a villain. And they are likable in their own way. QB is just..... ugh the CANNIBAL SCENE.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ahelo

I think he should be teamed up with Kirino and Tony Stark as the worst character. At least you had fun watching Izaya and Beatrice be a villain. And they are likable in their own way. QB is just..... ugh the CANNIBAL SCENE.

I actually like the little rat. The reveal of episode eight is just the ice on the cake. I'll have to wait more episode before adding the cherry. Imo, he secured his spot in the 2011 awards.

[RedWing]

Most of the stuff in this episode has been theorised with a great deal of certainty before - which did not surprise me as it was a logical progression which was due to be explained in time. However a great point of interest of mine is the very peculiar scene involving Homura and Kyoko.

When Homura is on the ground she cannot move at all when she is being grabbed? Why is that? Homura's face is completely emotionless and she isn't struggling in any shape or form but she's obviously helpless in a way we haven't seen before. We also have to tie this fact in with the realisation that Homura is using traditional weaponry, her grenade was not magical and her gun certainly wasn't.

Is Homura conserving magic? I don't think so as she had clearly exhausted after her shootup of Kyuubey. Then all we are left with is that very peculiar scene where we see that Homura has some magical contraption. In fact where did the grenade come from anyway? Does Homura's power allow her to teleport things into her vicinity? Or is it the contraption doing all the work feeding magic from the thing at the top to the bottom? Is the the item at the top another soul gem?

It clearly is the thing doing some if not all of the work -- But I looked back ant it's weird although Homura clearly uses all her powers in the fight against Charlotte (bringing conventional weapons, teleporting) she DOES NOT have the magical shield contraption. But guess what else she doesn't have - A SOUL GEM. Although Homura's soul gem is clearly visible on her left hand (same as the shield) I cannot see one on her in episode 3 even though she is using her powers, but we do see it in episode 6 along with the shield.

I have no idea what this means but it's interesting. lol.

My guess is that Homura's device is some sort of time travel machine and not her actual power but tbh I can't really back it up

[Irisiel]

Well, I'm now convinced that Madoka will transform using Homura's Soul Gem (like in the opening), and that Homura will use the cat as a doll/body when her human one is destroyed.

Anyway, Cubae (would that be his name, right? Think Greek "ay/ai" sound.) is Incubator, incubating the apocalypse. Actually, I think that maybe Madoka was the giant witch in the prologue, and that Homura returned back in time to stop her from going MG and then witch.

I feel for Sayaka, but as has been said before "assuming makes an ass out of you and me". She should just have approached Kamijou as his long-time friend and casually asked "I hear rumours that you and my best friend is going out? Any truth to that?".

But her rashness has always been her biggest flaw.

I feel sorry for Kyouko. Probably the first time she's reached out since the massacre of her family, and it ends up being Sayaka, who turns into a witch that needs to be killed. If Kyouko's unlucky, she'll be killed. If she's REALLY unlucky, Madoka will see her killing Sayaka (and Sayaka will not look like a witch at the time) and will try to seek revenge.

Madoka herself, however, I'm starting to get irritated with. She knows that Cubae keeps things to himself, that any contract he makes is null and void, that he's NOT a good guy, yet she still decides to take him up on his offer. It takes a certain kind of idiocy to enter a lifetime, life-changing and life-threatening contract ignorant and knowing that your contractor will try to keep you in ignorance.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

It takes a certain kind of idiocy to enter a lifetime, life-changing and life-threatening contract ignorant and knowing that your contractor will try to keep you in ignorance.

Without excusing her, I would like to remind you that she have been tempted by QB who have kept telling her that she is totally awesome and could very well become some sort of god. Moreover, seeing how she is distressed by Sayaka's condition and caring for her friend's well being, it have been a matter of time before she decides to tempt fate.

To be on-topic:

Episode eight have been a delicious treat for me, and allows me to have some fun talk with folks in IRC. If I could pull the same OH SHI- faces that Eikichi Onizuka of GTO fame could do, I would have done them, because they sum up my reactions over the developments of the episode. Kyuubey, you little rat, don't change.

9/10

Four more episodes I think, before the ride is over but boy it IS fun.

[Seiryuu]

I've only scanned through so far but, wow, this really is a twisted show. If they can somehow make it come out good it'll be awesome, but it'll be quite a feat. And it seems that the guesses about the true nature of Witches and Kyubei's motivations are pretty much spot on. I was a little surprised that Cuba's real name is "Incubator" though.

Spoiler:

Aside from Cuba, familiars had always been witches' servants, right? I get the feeling that he's the same, but he's the servant of the queen of all witches (or maybe a warlock looking for a dark bride). And he uses a combination of the lure of miraculous wish-granting with the dire situation created by the witches, actually using the girls he doomed to convince others that they have to follow that same path. And he eats the used grief seeds to deliver the remaining power to his true mistress.

And as I said previously, I think Cuba's deliberately choosing how he grants wishes. As I'd said, there are multiple ways to grant most wishes, and while some can turn out well, others pretty much guarantee that the brief happiness born from the wish will be crushed under the weight of its consequences.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i'm getting depressed with the thought that this show is nearing its end. T_T i sure am going to miss this show. T_T mah, i'm such a sap. DX

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by ahelo

I think he should be teamed up with Kirino and Tony Stark as the worst character. At least you had fun watching Izaya and Beatrice be a villain. And they are likable in their own way. QB is just..... ugh the CANNIBAL SCENE.

Well, there is a difference between lazily defined protagonists that you end up hating and well defined antagonists that you are supposed to hate.

You need to earn credibility to be a protagonist or antagonist ; Yes, I'd love to shoot some more holes in him, but he earned his place.

Bastard.

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by ahelo

I think he should be teamed up with Kirino and Tony Stark as the worst character. At least you had fun watching Izaya and Beatrice be a villain. And they are likable in their own way. QB is just..... ugh the CANNIBAL SCENE.

Hey, I kind want to argue that Beatrice isn't that bad as QB is..especially after finish playing umineko EP8; but that's off-topic, so oh well..

I am thinking about Koemushi at the moment.
Another mean bastard. But Koemusi indeed was trying to save the world..

I wonder what QB would turn out to be in the end, seriously.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Vsin

>_>
<_<

Did nobody notice the colour of Homura's Soul Gem when she was trying to kill Sayaka? PINK?

- Every MG up to now has had their Soul Gem match their character colour (or rather, hair colour).
- Kyuubey claims that Madoka is the only one in the world who can break physics. Therefore, she's also supposed to be the only one with the potential to manipulate time (Homura's power).
- Homura doesn't actually break down until she hears Madoka's QQ session about her worthlessness.
- Also note that she continually emphasizes Madoka not causing suffering to those around her. Not "wishes never come true" or "this is the worst mistake in the history of mistakes", just that one point over and over again.

I dunno, the show seems to be heavily pushing towards Homura being future Madoka, if only the Soul Gem. Which then begs the question: is Homura the Body actually the black cat from the OP, "transmuted" into a girl?

Yeah, I didn't notice that, being too caught up in the story to do proper analysis. But this seems now heavily likely. Homura is Madoka from the future, yet in another body, because her original body was destroyed. Yikes. Well, we'll see if that turns out to be true.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

All in all, I'm actually going to give this a 10/10. As Kanon wrote, the execution here was superb. And while some of the overarching plot events have been more predictable than I would have liked, the intricate details of how those plot events have been implented into the anime itself, has been somewhat surprising. Sayaka's meeting with that misogynstic man on the bus was truly a startling scene, that I never would have foreseen, for example. And yet, it was a very effective one, imo.

So, again, 10/10. I'm very much looking forward to more.

Glad you liked the episode. I had a feeling you would. The flawless execution and the emotions conveyed in this episode easily trumps the predictable turn of events. I'd like to praise the muscial score as well. It's wonderful as expected from Kajiura Yuki. I can't wait to get my hands on the soundtrack.

Random pointless comments:

• I loved the look of Homura's room. Surreal and beautiful.
• Homura's arsenal is awesome. As a result, she's way more powerful and versatile than the other magicals girls who stick to only one type of weapons (muskets, swords or spears). She's used bombs, flashbangs, guns, and whatever it was that fire lasers at Kyubey in the first episode.
• I enjoyed Chiwa Saito's performance a lot. The breakdown scene was perfect thanks to her.
• I still can't help but like Kyubey. The contrast between his cute and fluffy external appearance and his cold-hearted personality makes him a very fun antagonist. It was also very funny to see him act all cute right after eating himself. He just doesn't give a damn
• I wish we had seen Sayaka kill the two assholes (yes, I'm pretty sure she killed them).
• If Madoka could become a god by becoming a magical girl, what would happen if she turned into a witch? She could easily bring worth the apocalypse. Maybe this is what Kyubey is aiming for.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Vsin

>_>
<_<

Did nobody notice the colour of Homura's Soul Gem when she was trying to kill Sayaka? PINK?

- Every MG up to now has had their Soul Gem match their character colour (or rather, hair colour).
- Kyuubey claims that Madoka is the only one in the world who can break physics. Therefore, she's also supposed to be the only one with the potential to manipulate time (Homura's power).
- Homura doesn't actually break down until she hears Madoka's QQ session about her worthlessness.
- Also note that she continually emphasizes Madoka not causing suffering to those around her. Not "wishes never come true" or "this is the worst mistake in the history of mistakes", just that one point over and over again.

I dunno, the show seems to be heavily pushing towards Homura being future Madoka, if only the Soul Gem. Which then begs the question: is Homura the Body actually the black cat from the OP, "transmuted" into a girl?

Madoka's transformation scene does include a girl with long pink hair aiding her. So maybe that is the true Homura (Madoka from another timeline).

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, I didn't notice that, being too caught up in the story to do proper analysis. But this seems now heavily likely. Homura is Madoka from the future, yet in another body, because her original body was destroyed. Yikes. Well, we'll see if that turns out to be true.

Her conversation with Madoka seems to point to her NOT being Madoka but someone very close to her in a other time.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Estavali

I'm surprised nobody has made any remarks on Homura's house. Doesn't it look VERY familiar, like a certain shop in a previous work that also had Shinbo and Kajiura involved?

Yup, I saw the house for just a second and grinned. It is definitely Eiri's shop from Le Portrait de Petit Cossette.

Originally Posted by Estavali

After watching this episode, I have this growing suspicion that Homerun-chan is actually a post-Walpurgisnacht Sayaka.

Spoiler for Hurried thought:

She's too concerned about protecting Madoka, to the point that she is actually willing to kill Sayaka to spare Madoka the anguish of seeing one of her best friends transformed into a Witch. This is something that Madoka would never do, considering how much she value her friendship with Sayaka, and would be very OOC of what we have seen of her so far, if she would go to such lengths just to protect herself (we are looking at a girl who is willing to accompany a friend on her Witch-hunts despite the dangers which she is all too aware of).

Also, this theory may also answer Homerun-chan's actions throughout the series so far, like how she seemed hurt when Madoka called her Akemi-san in episode 1, and why she knows that Charlotte is not something Mami could handle (and how she herself was able to take down the same witch without too much a hassle. Because she herself had witnessed the Witch's ability previously). It also explains her driving obsession to prevent Madoka from becoming a MG; simply because Madoka paid a price too high to turn her back from a Witch! To Sayaka, this would be unacceptable, especially after her harsh words to Madoka this episode, she would be heartbroken if her best friend was still willing to sacrifice herself just for her sake. Just because she, Madoka, was a person too kind, a friend too good to be true.

Even if Kyubey is lying about Madoka being able to save Sayaka after she becomes a MG, it may be still possible for him to reverse the Witch-MG transformation if Madoka wishes it so. In other words, the foundation of Homerun-chan=Sayaka theory lies in the event that Madoka wishes Sayaka out of her Witch state and succeeds in doing so (regardless his intentions and plans, Kyubey apparently honors his part of granting the wish of the potential MG).

I'm afraid my post may not be as well laid-out as I wish it so (since I'm running late for work and has little time to organise my thoughts. Alas for the parts which I have no time now to write out! ). So I apologise if what is written now seems full of holes (if the theory itself is not so in the first place . And yes, I do recognise that a very big hole here is why Homerun-chan didn't stop Madoka from throwing Sayaka from the bridge in the first place )

It's not impossible, but there is one immediate counterargument to the thought.

If Homura is post-Walpurgisnacht Sayaka, that would mean that she was wished out of a Puella Magi by Madoka (as in turning fully back to human). But, by reappearing in this timeline, that would mean that she contracted Kyubey (again?) to stop Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi, to which the incident with the original!Sayaka happened again, and Madoka will be thrown into making the choice again. Again (repeated too many times in this paragraph alone!), I won't say it's impossible, but CLAMP is more likely to make a circular timeline thing than SHAFT, I'd think.

======

An observation on Episode 8:

Spoiler for Kyubey:

This is a sort of dichotomy I've seen for Kyubey that would probably not be shared by many, but I'll put it up just for discussion anyway.

While Episode 8 does reveal his leanings as evil, I still have a suspicion that is what SHAFT would've wanted us to believe. That is to say, the animations, background, foreshadowing, etc. were manipulated to make us believe that Kyubey is the mastermind behind all the suffering for Puella Magi.

But, to me, Kyubey is just like an observer, sort of like a God made into a ... weird, catish/doggish/something image. He tries to understand humans in his ways, making things happen and see how their reactions would be. He grants their wish, observe them, reveal the truth about the price of his miracle, and observe further. And he has a particular interest in Madoka for his own reason.

Part of it, I believe, is because he is interested in what Madoka's wish would be. While others' have been more predictable (Sayaka for Kamijo, Kyoko for her father, and Mami for herself), Madoka has been a really weak person throughout, but she has been hesitant/stopped from making her wish and form a contract with him. Madoka has nothing particularly more interesting than the other Puella Magi (except for her awesome mom ), so why has she not fallen to the temptation as easily like the others? This makes her interesting to him.

Why did I say Kyubey is not evil? Well, Kyubey as an Incubator would mean that his main task is to make Witches, that are incidentally borne from fallen Puella Magi. Puella Magi, I assume, will all eventually enter a state of despair (from loneliness, or just like what Sayaka experienced) and become Witches (hence, his name as Incubator as called by Homura - by waiting for the ripe time to reap what he's sown). However, his method of doing this "evil" has been extremely circular: he has to get Puella Magi to kill Witches for their Grief Seeds which he in turn consumes, but Witches also come from Puella Magi.

Why could he not directly consume their souls when they form the contract? I recall someone saying that the devil needs to tempt their victim's soul and condemn it to hell, but shouldn't a contract with a devil immediately taint the soul? Sure, using magic seems to be "tainting" it, but recall that it can also be purified by using a Grief Seed (apparently the soul of a fallen Puella Magi). Homura has not commented on this, so it appears that cleansing part is genuine. Why would Kyubey, given his seemingly evil plan, want to create an escape route for his ensnared victim to escape from his grasp? It could be for the thrill of the hunt/bidding his time like his namesake, I suppose, but if your Puella Magi never falls into a Witch were all emotionally strong, then you will have something to worry about reworking your plan.

Also, despite his immortality, Kyubey appears to have no offensive power. He could be hurt (by Homura in Episode 1), but he appears to be unable to return the favor. He found out Homura was interfering with his plans, but he didn't seem ... angry at all. In fact, he was being ... cattish. Again, possible loftiness on his part, but highly doubtful.

Lastly, the absolute flaw in his "evil" plan is that in granting an irreversible miracle, he makes himself and the plan extremely vulnerable. With Madoka's wish at the fulcrum and the possible knowledge Homura could warn her of Kyubey's diabolical plan, he stands the risky chance of losing the field if Madoka wishes to return everything to normal. His true objective may be Madoka for all we know, but Madoka's wish could circumvent his entire plan (of course, I would write it as a wish that nullifies all Puella Magi-making process, therefore Madoka would be spared from the curse; Urobochi could write it as the last wish and Madoka is the only Puella Magi Kyubey would consume).

Still, I suppose if my speculation of Kyubey as an observer is wrong, Kyubey could be happy with Madoka alone, and that's a probable closure to the series as foreshadowed in the ED.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Kanon

[*]If Madoka could become a god by becoming a magical girl, what would happen if she turned into a witch? She could easily bring worth the apocalypse. Maybe this is what Kyubey is aiming for.[/LIST]

By now I'd say this is precisely what Inkyubeytor is aiming for,

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Her conversation with Madoka seems to point to her NOT being Madoka but someone very close to her in a other time.

Well, her soul gem being in Madokas "color" could either mean that Homura was so specially devoted to Madoka that even her soul was tinged in her likeness or that Homura has the soul-gem of the alternate timeline Madoka.

Or it's a red herring, but given how much focus the writers put on symbology and details, I kinda doubt it.

[garbage]

ok that's so fucked up. but great episode.
so it's official KILL QB!! so it wanted madoka to make the strongest witch, QB the incubator.

and sayaka breaking , did she even hear what hitomi and kamijou was talking about?. oh well, maybe the point is moot, even if hitomi was doing it for her she still doesn't feel " clean " & " human " enough to be with kamijou. so sad.

I disagree with those saying it's predictable. there have been many speculations everywhere, on most anime forums in fact more so on this show which has such a high response quotient, of course some of them are bound to come true. especially if the writer would stay on a logically consistent path. i believed it was pretty well done. In fact the number of speculations and replies alone indicates that it was NOT as predictable as some would imply now. For example QB's action may make you feel he's the villain or even evil, but you're never sure, and never know why, there were a lot of surprises. (and seems a lot more with Walpurgis night and a couple more episodes to come) if it was really THAT PREDICTABLE no one would post at all and there would be no point in discussing possibilities. and only few would watch the show.

@tsunade666

Spoiler for Higurashi spoilers please:

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I'm not even sure if it's from the future or past anymore. Because in this episode. It reminds me of higurashi. Rika goes to new time plane to get butchered again. But on this one. Homura goes in this time plane to prevent Madoka from forming a contract. Madoka is starting to remember Homura but she still insist that Sayaka is more imporant. She even left Sayaka to break down.But even if Madoka did find Sayaka it's still Sayaka and Mami are beyond salvation. Or is their still a chance for Sayaka?

I can only see Madoka forming a contract to make Sayaka back to normal or even try to break her contract with Kyubei.

awww i'm just watching higurashi now, i'm just on s1, ep12 WAHHHHHHH ;(

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Estavali

After watching this episode, I have this growing suspicion that Homerun-chan is actually a post-Walpurgisnacht Sayaka.

The immediate problem i can see with this is why would Homura not be aware of Sayaka's vulnerability. She made the link that Sayaka would be used to pull Madoka down very quickly after Sayaka's transformation. If she was Sayaka, she should have known her own personality, her own background, etc which would have allowed her to guess what would happen much earlier

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Spoiler for Kyubey:

Why could he not directly consume their souls when they form the contract?

The simplest reason i can guessis because it is not dark yet. He seems to require grief seeds at a certain level of darkness, hence the MS using the seeds plays into the plan. As shown by Mami when she first uses it, the soul gem is not "cleansed" rather its darkness is transferred. take a look back at ep 2's late half

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Spoiler for Kyubey:

Also, despite his immortality, Kyubey appears to have no offensive power. He could be hurt (by Homura in Episode 1), but he appears to be unable to return the favor.

But why hurt the MS even if he could? In the end they are going to ripen anyway. Take a farmer. He grows an apple tree. One day, the gets hit on the head by an apple falling from the tree. Should he take an axe to the tree or just laugh it off and wait for the rest of the fruit to drop?

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Spoiler for Kyubey:

Madoka's wish could circumvent his entire plan (of course, I would write it as a wish that nullifies all Puella Magi-making process, therefore Madoka would be spared from the curse; Urobochi could write it as the last wish and Madoka is the only Puella Magi Kyubey would consume)

A few problems with this wish
i) The existing witches and MS are not helped at all. Just no new ones
ii) The procedure requires knowing which is done first. Wish granted first = no MS. Wish after transformation = still a MS but no new MS. also in consideration is whether the bargain is upheld as wish=cost of MS
iii) You could then become something else, not a MS, how about a mutant with the same stuff
iv) Familiars can still be created.

[scr]

What if Homura's reticence isn't due to poor communication skills, but due to having tried million times and failed? Kind of, like, Rika from Higurashi. Makes me wonder about just _how_ many iterations have happened.

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

I must praised everyone especially Mentar who have predict that Sayaka will become a witch and Kyubey is the true villain

Puji ane juga dong gan