Claymore Chapter 123

[MalakTawus]

@malak chs out, moving on...

Agree,i posted my reply before looking at the new chapter........in the end there was no awakening,partial-awakening at all,lol.

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I simply want to point out that once again no one has yet tried OR EVEN THOUGHT to do a partial awakening like Claire did .

Just saying.......

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Like others have sugested,i think that Miria's plan is quite crazy: IMO she wants to move the fight with Histy in the middle of the fight between Cassy and Roxy,hoping that with some luck those 3 will end up fighting each others,and at that point the ghosts role should be to kill the monsters when all three are tired or severely wounded.
The problem with this plan is that to lure Histy in that chaotic situation,the ghosts themselves (Miria Helen and Deneve?) have to enter that chaotic fight as well,similar to what Deneve did to try to escape from Prissy.
Honestly,going in the middle of a fight like that is a plan that have some chance of success (even if it's a very little chance it's already a lot considering their actual situation,lol) but will almost surely be a suicide plan where very few will survive (probably all the ones that will go in the middle of that fight are doomed,only the ones that will stay outside will survive)

[Weird D]

Having to catch up is such a pain... But yeah, I was surprised too by a few things in this chapter :
first was the anchoring/de-anchoring Hysty does. I was wondering what she'd do once she ran out of those spikes if she couldn't regenerate them. Also, I'm wondering if they don't limit her mobility a bit. I mean, unless she can move them around her body, she can only shoot them in the direction they're facing. Say she has 10 of those (I didn't count), that means she can only go super fast in 10 directions instead of a full range of motion.

Miria suddenly being able to catch up with Hysty however, I'm no sure. Anastasia's thread seemed involved in some way, maybe Miria slingshots herself with them?

Nike having trouble removing the sword can be explained however. When she Awakened, her flesh may have grown over the sword and gotten it stuck - say you take a steel bar and pour concrete around it, once the concrete has hardened, the bar won't come out as smoothly. Hence why Nika couldn't just twist the sword ans lop off Hysty's head.

Hopefully the translation will explain things better.

[MalakTawus]

The more i look at the chapter the more i'm convinced that Miria chatching up with Histy is not really an issue since we actually don't see from where Miria appears so like i said in previos post there are logical ways to explain this,especially since we cant even be sure that at that moment Histy was really moving at full speed........on the contrary it doesn't even makes sense that at that moment Histy was at full speed since she was talking......

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

I really don't see Miria "catching-up" to Hysteria as Miria being faster, so much as Miria planned to intercept her in the first place.

AKA: They grab Anastasia and run away with her, Hysteria chases them.
Miria, expecting this, was already headed to cut her off before she actually got moving.

That is what makes the most sense to me, but some people would probably rather ignore that and continue to complain about speed differences.

Fenrir, Gooral and I talked about it for several posts just now -- I haven't been "ignoring" it; I mentioned her intercepting as the only possible way to describe what just happened; it still however, if you look at my breaking down of things, still make what she did nothing less then extreme luck.

And WOW, you changed your avatar? after all this time? :O

===

Originally Posted by Gooral

Her attitude is lame, instead of being so generous she should have killed Claymores one by one until someone would do what she told. In other words she should be more like Rigaldo..

Hmm....I guess I can't fault you for that - it would certainly be alot more terrible....makes me think of Agatha, and the helplessness everyone felt against her and how Clarice ran away in fear with Miata being killed...

Her attitude wasn't anything unusual - Riful has often been the same kind of negotiator; taking her sweet time, playing with her victims....she was never the bloodthirsty kind either, even though she too would have no qualm over killing all of them.

It comes down to preference in this I guess *shrug

By the way Gooral, giving it some thought....I think the AO speed chart is : Alicia<Hysteria<Priscilla.....Alicia was fast enough that she could kill seemingly in the blink of an eye; speed was a huge part of her....but again, we've simply never seen, flat-out, "phantoms" being used by another AO before; not like what Hysteria is doing...

Priscilla however, now that i recall, did sort of do a similar thing - it was when Helen/Deneve/Claire were running from her and Deneve used her sword to cut those HellCats so they'd shoot their rods at her.....Priscilla actually was similaring "warping" here, there, and everywhere....in fact, she was moving so fast, she blew the other HellCats to pieces in her wake (though this may be her power and not necessarily a speed thing).

That's similar enough don't you think? It's not phantoms, but this sort of "moving so fast it seems you are in a million places at once".....only Hysteria and Priscilla have done that on their respective power-levels; undoubtedly I think this is because the others are simply too big too pull something like that off (Beth was a bit on the small-size as well, but her forte was seemingly about power and long-range support).

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Thanks for the help manmmlala; your words basically go in-line with what Gene said.

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Originally Posted by Ryus

@manmmlala any clue from Deneve's comments about death... if we'll ever see it soon? and I'm going to be annoyed if "ms perfectionist miria" avoids causing any other warrior deaths by becoming the only casuality and sacrifices herself in some lame manner.

I don't think you have to worry about that (maybe)....in a sense, I think that's basically what she tried to do by going to Staff alone - take it all herself and let the others "not kill any humans"; her failure against Raftela, and her failure against the ZAOS have basically obliterated that plan....she has been saved twice already - one by the Claymore for not killing her, and one by the Ghosts showing up the nick of time.

I don't think she's going to go head-to-head with Hysteria alone (again), especially in her base-form and hope to win; Deneve's little speech basically further ebbed their chances of winning, nor do I expect them to just sit on their butts and let Miria fight alone. While I do admit they need some sort of distraction in order to get all the others out ASAP (hence, the likely scenario of letting the ZAOS fight eachother as you said - even without text, the end panels seemed to hint that), but not in the sense of just letting one warrior get the tar beaten out of them.

That said, this first bit you wrote...

any clue from Deneve's comments about death... if we'll ever see it soon?

Here's the thing - Deneve just went into this rant that some sacrifices have to be expected (even though it does seem kind of shallow when you re-consider that Deneve was one of the lucky ones not getting killed at Pieta...she wouldn't be talking like that if was killed )....but, naturally, it's not gonna surprise me if Miria still damn tries to save everyone anyway.

And why should she? It's good that she's a big Carebear; that's how she's always been and they should all be thankful for that.....she needs to not mentally beat herself up though for the people she unfortunately can't save - it's fine if she wants to try her best to save evieryone and she may even come close...if she doesn't however get a 100% and save every single person...she doesn't need to hurt herself for it.

So in a way, besides Deneve's rant, Miria is still gonna try and help everybody

--

Seriously though, it does feel somewhat hypocritical of Deneve to be ranting about this particular subject - Miria's carebear tendencies is what saved her butt in Pieta and it was down to luck that Deneve survived and, let's say, Undine didn't. It may seem tough, deep and realistic to go on and on about how you can't expect to save everyone....but really, which would you prefer? A leader who tries to save everyone, or a leader that announces to everyone "I'm gonna do my best, but some of you will probably die, so just so you know okay? ^_^".

I mean really, she needs the cut the attitude - I know she's trying to help in her own, ahem, way, and this is a lesson Miria needs to learn...but it just feels Deneve needs a beat-down as well for opening her mouth like this; it almost seems like, if her ranting to Tabitha and the others about the same thing, like she's always had this annoyance and complaints about Miria all this time and this is finally her chance to mouth off to her leader......Really! It almost seems like Deneve has been waiting for this moment for a very long time.

Her words however, in part, make her look stupid and, as much as Miria needs an eye-opener, so does Deneve - because she should be freaking grateful that she was one of the lucky ones; that Miria was carebear enough to do her best to try to save everyone and, while that didn't happen, Deneve was at least of the ones who were. Her mouthing off here feels like she sort of forgotten that or is taking that for granted. Can you imagine what it would have been like if Deneve were in charge at Pieta? Say what you will about what's more realistic, I can't imagine what the warriors morale would have been if Deneve announced that it's not realistic to expect everyone to survive....that would have gotten over really well and made them feel so much better about themselves -___-. You can argue that these warriors are expected to such cold and harsh brutality.....but really, again, which would you prefer? The cold realist or the carebear optimist?

Miria, lest we forget, basically said in her own way that this was a death-trap that has 0% of survival...she completely acknowledged that the likelihood of many of them dying was a likelihood; she still however said that this plan (the pills and all) was their best chance of getting as many of them out alive, and Undine praised this because everybody at least had a sporting chance; it was certainly better then 0%.

In a sense, I guess what I'm saying is, that their's a time and a place for everything -- Deneve's words may have some merit to them, but Deneve needs a stern dress-down as well....Wish someone actually would though because that's never actually happened before, now that I think about it -- Undine, Miria....nobody has ever put Deneve in her place (except Tabitha physically which, while good, wasn't good enough); I want to see that though because she has had it coming for a very long time now.


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Originally Posted by fraktur

by that logic deneve was also unable to cut hysterias legs. both parried an attack of her.
it's quiet obvious that the plot demands them to cut her legs to free anastacia etc. it's not an indicator of strengh

Cutting Hysteria's legs is very much alike to Riful getting her tentacles cut numerous time by others (barring Alicia), particularly in the case to help Audrey and Rachel....they aren't signs that Riful is suddenly weak; just that needs to happen in order for the others to be saved.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

This may sound strange,but if it's true (not that i don't belive you,Gooral) i wouldn't be too sad 'cause this could force Yagi to focus again to Claire.
Let's be honest here, the instant the story will return to focus on Claire and Priscilla will be the instant where Claymore will return once again to do very well in the rankings,everyone know it,surely even Yagi.

The sad thing is, even without clare claymore and berserk are still in a league of its own. The low IQ of most of those who enjoy stuff like bleach more than claymore isn't yagis fault.

[MalakTawus]

Shiek, i absolutely disagree in what you said about Deneve.
She knows perfectly well when she should say something and when instead she shouldn't,in fact in this aspect she's clearly the best.
Deneve would have NEVER said openly during Pieta's arc that there was no chance of victory 'cause she knew very well that there were a lot of warriors that would have lost control and confidence, infact Deneve herself went to help Undine NOT ONLY to help her,but also to help their whole team.

But now the situation is different, lying about the evidence right in front of their eyes would be completely idiotic,and she is talking to Miria that surely already knows very well that Deneve is 100% right,and also Deneve talks like that to Miria 'cause she knows that she can take it.
Everything that Deneve says to her friends is always for helping them to reach the right state of mind,and judging from this chapter i'd say that even this time it's undeniable that after Deneve's speech Miria has regained her focus and determination.

You say that Deneve shouldn't talk like that with Miria and you couldn't be more wrong imo,the only reason why Deneve acts this way towards Miria is because she knows that it's an effective method (exactly the same happened with Taby), the situation is already critical and Deneve knows very well that the most important thing was to restore Miria's mind's equilibrium, 'cause if Miria starts to lose her mind than it's all over.
Sweet talks are completely useless now,all that matters is the final result, and once again the final result was reached splendidly.

Honestly,Deneve is a true genius in its own field.

@irvinethearcher

The sad thing is, even without clare claymore and berserk are still in a league of its own. The low IQ of most of those who enjoy stuff like bleach more than claymore isn't yagis fault.

True,this particular genre is not exactly "mainstream",lol.
....but we all know that if the story will return to focus on Claire,it's VERY PROBABLE that this manga will do a lot better than the last months.

[irvinethearcher]

At least i am doing my part and i have already bought six of the german volumes
But the german translation sometimes seems to be done by an imbecile

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You say that Deneve shouldn't talk like that with Miria and you couldn't be more wrong imo,the only reason why Deneve acts this way towards Miria is because she knows that it's an effective method (exactly the same happened with Taby), the situation is already critical and Deneve knows very well that the most important thing was to restore Miria's mind's equilibrium, 'cause if Miria starts to lose her mind than it's all over.
Sweet talks are completely useless now,all that matters is the final result, and once again the final result was reached splendidly.

That's is what i believe too. It is sort of like when Deneve talked to Undine. But she did that with a much more caring attitude. Right now she is very stern with Miria to get her motivated. Hence the superman pose

Honestly,Deneve is a true genius in its own field.

So true

And another thing, Deneve haters are just like Raki haters, they hate on her just because they need someone to hate. But Deneve can take it. She is far to strong and talented to be brought down by haters.

[Shiek927]

I feel it's all perceptive Malak -- it comes down to arguing whether her methods and/or results are worth it....It doesn't help that, again, this increasing behavior from her (aka Dr.D) is making her seem like the stuff coming out of her mouth is just silly (not to mention opens the door to questioning if it's Yagi talking to us, if we're supposed to accept it without question etc....); combine this with her blunt attitude and you get a character that, in my opinion, is just too much sometimes.

I've said before, but I get it - I get how, in a way, it's unfair to paint her in a bad light when she is undoubtedly just trying to help in her own, ahem, way; especially when their is alot of sense behind her words.....the recent Dr.D perception though, like I said, just makes her seem condescending and putting-down.

Alot of it is admittingly very perceptive - in a way, I think it boils down to.....why her? Why is it always her? why did she singlehandily go to Miria just now, for example, and gave her this big speech when all the others have something to say - that's why I said, for example, it almost seems like Deneve always had a problem with her carebear tendencies (even if those tendencies saved her life), and this was now her chance to finally rant at her.

But who knows....shoot - maybe, in her own way, despite her harshness, Deneve forgave him in a sense by pulling her up and getting Miria back on her feet...

Her behavior as a whole, is very controversal and I can see why people like/don't like it - Maybe I'm being unfair, maybe others are being too soft....It's tricky and very perceptive - Personally though, I just find her, as a whole, simply too much at times....her recent rants/speeches/call-them-what-you-will, just make me want to groan out loud....I know she may just be trying to help, but I think a little more reflection and tact is needed from her. Some moments call for a voice of reason (not that she has to be), others are worth just keeping your mouth shut.

[Teresa4ever]

^so Shiek what you are saying is that just because she is a women she can't be smart or have anything good to say? That is all i got from your post. It doesn't make sense.

[Claymore!]

Yagi wanted a way to explain certain scenes to people the way that he invisioned it. And he uses Deneve as his mouth piece. I can't understand why everyone seems to hate her when all she is doing is helping the reader have a better understanding of whats going on. And Deneve is a very inteligent and obsevant person so she is the best choice for a mouth for Yagi.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Teresa4ever

^so Shiek what you are saying is that just because she is a women she can't be smart or have anything good to say? That is all i got from your post. It doesn't make sense.

I do think Shiekamatic is saying that she does not having anything good to say T4F, just she has yet to be given a chance to do so. I think the issue comes down to a divide between how people perceive Deneve's words in the story. I believe that when Malak or Claymore! see Deneve proposing the wedge theory, etc they see it as part of the character. For me and perhaps Shiek as well, we do not see it as the character speaking. Instead, we see it as a cheap means for Yagi to explain the plot. I simply find it artificial and removed from the very character. Again, I just do not see it as Deneve speaking, but rather just Yagi.

I do not know how to clarify that point any further. I think Deneve has become consumed by the author's need to explain events. Personally, I like it when the story is left up to the reader to understand. Imagine if Yagi just explained away Teresa vs Priscilla. I believe that the the vagueness and of the story is a strength, especially for a discussion board like this. Having one character consistently explain away the plot and remove the vagueness is irritating and it feels cheap. That is where the hate is coming from at least for me.

In addition, we have had a lot of Deneve and Helen and I really would prefer to see other characters at this point in time.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Teresa4ever

^so Shiek what you are saying is that just because she is a women she can't be smart or have anything good to say? That is all i got from your post. It doesn't make sense.

I'm hoping that's a joke, because you made me laugh

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Yagi wanted a way to explain certain scenes to people the way that he invisioned it. And he uses Deneve as his mouth piece. I can't understand why every seems to hate her when all she is doing is helping the reader have a better understanding of whats going on. And Deneve is a very inteligent and obsevant person so she is the best choice for a mouth for Yagi.

You have to excuse me if I still thinks thats bull****.

You seem to be mixed up, so I'll say this - do you like her because you see her as being this voice-of-reason, or because she is supposedly Yagi's mouthpiece?

Both answers make me wanna groan, but if it's both, I'm gonna throw up.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Yagi wanted a way to explain certain scenes to people the way that he invisioned it. And he uses Deneve as his mouth piece. I can't understand why every seems to hate her when all she is doing is helping the reader have a better understanding of whats going on. And Deneve is a very inteligent and obsevant person so she is the best choice for a mouth for Yagi.

Why does the story need a mouthpiece though? Imagine if TvP or other aspects of the story were just explained away. For instance, take the DoDs, so far we know very very little and as a result we have had a lot of speculation and debate over the DoDs. If Yagi used a mouthpiece to simplify the DoDs where would the discussion be?

Part of the fun is the mystery.

[SagaraSouske]

Here is a quick translation from Chinese Scans: (I think some translation do not sound right but have no access to raws.)

Page 1
Miria (thoughts): When Clare fought Rigardo, she had to awaken her arms to control the speed of her awakened legs.

Page 2
Helen: Damn
Miria: For Hysteria, those tentacle legs of hers serve the same purpose as Clare's awakened arm. Using them to dig into the ground, it allowed her to make abrupt stops and turns.
Miria:When these things shoots into the ground, they almost act as an anchor, so that even when she is in the air she can change direction freely and instantly return to the ground.
Tabitha: If that's the case, this awaken being...
Miria: That's right. Technically, she is not flying.
Miria: The height she is able to reach is dependent on her initial jump. After that she can only move horizontally or downwards.

Page 3
Miria: But even then, her speed is much faster then when she had wings. To her, fighting in the air is essentially the same as fighting on the ground.
Denev (Panting)
Miria: Denev!!
Miria: I am fine now. Go help heal Denev.

Page 4
Denev: No, I am fine. Nike and Dietrich are hit far worse then me.
Denev: Especially Dietrich, she is an offensive type, it does not look good...
Dietrich: (Panting)
Dietrich: (Panting More)
Tabitha: Dietrich!!
Tabitha: Take a good hold of yourself! Don't stand up, just lie down.

Page 5
Tabitha: She already lost some innards. On top of that she is an offensive type who can't heal well...
Yuma: Get a grip of yourself Nina, I am going to start to youki sync with you to help you heal.
Miria: (Panting)
Helen: Damn it.
Anastasia: !
Anastasia: Ah!
Helen: Anastasia!!

Page 6
Hysteria(AO): What's the matter? I have found myself a substitute for the one you stole from me.

Page 7
Anastasia: Ahhh!
Hysteria(AO): I will not be as nice as I have been before. I don't care who, only the person that pulls this word out of my neck will be spared.
Hysteria(AO): If you will not listen to my recommendation, I will shred all of you into pieces and then swallow them.
Miria (Thoughts): Out of the 9 here, only 6 have gone into battle. But these are not just any 6 warriorrs...

Page 8
Miria (Thoughts): Most of these 6 are equivalent of a single digit, half of them even have may even be equal to low number single digit... Even a group like this, 4 of them suffered severe injuries and impaired mobility from Hysteria's single assault.
Miria: (Panting and turn to watch battle between Cassandra and Roxanne)

Page 9
Miria (Thoughts): So this is the power of an abyssal one... This is a battle between abyssal ones...
Miria (Thoughts): If I awaken, what kind of power will I receive...

Page 10
Miria (Thoughts): Even if I don't acquire the power of an AO... actually I'd rather I don't win this fight... so that I can inflict a fatal would to her and then die right here in her hands...
Miria (Raising Youki)
Miria (Thoughts): But will I still be fighting Hysteria if I fully awaken? Can I be sure that I will not attack my comrades?
Miria (Continue to raise youki)
Miria (Thoughts): But it's just a matter of time before we all get wiped out... If that's the case...

Page 11
Denev (extends her hand to Miria)
Denev: Stand up Miria! Let's join the battle as well.
Miria: Denev?
Miria: I'm sorry, Denev...
Denev: Miria, your weakness is that you always seek perfection, and you are obsessive about cleanliness...
Miria: huh?

Page 12
Denev: If you are human, you will make mistakes and get your hands dirty
Denev: This is even more true for leaders...
Denev: Goals like: A outcome where no one in the team dies, and every under you are protected from harm is beautiful to behold. But in reality such ideal is only a fantasy and impossible.
Denev: To have a future, even if some of us perish in this fight, no one will begrudge you for any decision you make, do not be hang up on something like this...
Miria: But, even so...
Denev: LISTEN, THIS IS AN IMPORTANT THING THAT I AM ABOUT TO TELL YOU!!!

Page 13
Denev: For those of us who would have other wise waste our entire meaningless life in the Org, we are already saved by having the will to stand up against the Org that created and destroyed us as humans and not as monsters.
Miria: Eh ?
Denev: After being redeemed as humans, none of the warriors will expect you to save their lives too...

Page 14
Denev: The speech you gave earlier about needing our strength...needing our help as comrades...
Denev: Even if we lose our lives here, for me, this is what I always wanted to hear from you...
Denev: Not all the comrades that are fighting here came because of your command. They came by their own will, on their own feet with honor and glory ...
Denev: So Stand Miria! For us humans, we fight together as humans to defeat that monster.

Page 15
Miria: Is that right? ... You are right...
Hysteria(AO): So, I take it no one heeded my suggestion.
Hysteria(AO): Very well. I will shred all of you into pieces.
Nike: Wait...wait....

Page 16
Nike: (Panting)
Nike: I...I will do what you suggested.
Hysteria(AO): Ah, that's surprising... But what can you with a tattered body like that?
Nike: It's because my injured body. Your first attack made me realize how much I am out classed.
Anastasia: Nike...
Nike: You said you will spare anyone that draw out the sword from you neck. I trust you will keep that promise...

Page 17
Denev: Spreading youki in her hair is how she is able to increase the elasticity and durability of the strands.
Miria: I see. That's how you were able to fly.
Miria: Denev, what happened to Clare?
Denev: Don't worry. She just overexerted herself a bit in the west. Now she is resting in Rabanon.

Page 18
Hysteria(AO): Listen well. The reason why I cannot remove the sword is because when I fully awakened, the sword was merged with my awakening in some ways and become part of me. I will concentrate on directing my thoughts to treat it as a foreign object. You can pull it out during this time.
Anastasia: (Panting)
Nike: (Panting)
Hysteria(AO): Even though it should be obvious, but if you attempt to exert any extra effort and attempt to move the sword in another direction even slightly, make sure you prepare to have your torso completely obliterated.

Page 19
Hysteria(AO): YES! The sensation of a blade moving inside of me is fantastic!

Page 20
Hysteria(AO): What's wrong? There is just a little bit left.
Miria: Helen, Tabitha.
Miria: Get ready to start...

Page 21
Nike: AHHHH! (Cuts off Hysteria's limbs that is holding Anastasia on the ground)

Page 22
Mike: What?
Hysteria(AO): I promised that I will spare you. Even if it turn out to be treachery like this I will still keep my word.

Page 23
Hysteria(AO): However, everyone else here is a delicious meal that I have been waiting for a long time.
Hysteria(AO): How did you... from where...

Page 24
Hysteria(AO): It seems like you can fly in the air as well.
Hysteria(AO): Very well. Let's settle this again with speed.

Page 25
Hysteria(AO): Is that all the speed you got?

Page 26
Hysteria(AO): Damn you.

Page 27
Helen: I am not stupid enough to allow you to continue to keep a foot hold while you are in the air.

Page 28
Miria: The second round of speed contest will occur in the air. With coordination from everyone, we can be evenly matched, may be even have a slight advantage.
Hysteria(AO): If you really believe such nonsense, I may have judged you wrong.

Page 29
Tabitha: Get a grip of yourself
Helen: Anastasia
Nike: Don't worry about me. Heal Anastasia.
Anastasia: It's no use.
Anastasia: Even one known as Mirage cannot hope to compete against that abyssal one despite being in the air offset some of the disadvantages.
Denev: Miria knows that herself. Focus on healing yourself first. We have something that we would like you to try.
Anastasia: Eh?

Page 30
Denev: Miria is aim towards the center of that chaos (The battle between Roxanne and Cassandra).

[Shiek927]

I do think Shiekamatic is saying that she does not having anything good to say T4F. Instead, I think the issue comes down to a divide between how people perceive Deneve's words in the story. I believe that when Malak or Claymore! see Deneve proposing the wedge theory, etc they see it as part of the character. For me and perhaps Shiek as well, we do not see it as the character speaking. Instead, we see it as a cheap means for Yagi to explain the plot. I simply find it artificial and removed from the very character.

Here's the thing...maybe I was always wrong about Deneve - may, deep-down, she's a sweet girl who is the unofficial voice-of-reason and kindness (even though I don't see why that has to be her - frankly, I always thought that was Miria up till now actually - she has been both practical and kind in, even if that, now, has gone too far against better judgement) who, in her own blunt way, makes people "see the light" and get people back up.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Deneve that way at all.

Maybe I'm just being stubborn, but I just don't see Deneve as that kind of benevolent, I just don't - I never have....maybe her stoic attitude has gotten to me for so long that I never saw this, but I just don't know what to say on this....getting to Undine, ranting about Miria, ranting to Miria, her grand Wedge theory....maybe in her own way, she is indeed doing everyone a favor (this goes back to what I'm saying about her methods/results and if you approve of one, or both), but their's just something about that idea that I just find....wrong; distasteful.

When was she suddenly Claymore's conscious? the superego of the group? She was always a passionate woman in my eyes, even more then Helen, who hid it all under a stoic and frozen mask; akin to Claire in alot of ways....

Claire is a good person, she really is -- she's gone out her way to help people even openly said she wouldn't (Renee)....she always though was the independent black-sheep of the group....so is Deneve supposed to be the white-sheep variety of that? a cold voice-of-reason that snaps people back to reality when necessary? That, in truth, she's actually the kindest and sweetest Ghost member of them all?

.....

....

......I'm sorry, but I just don't see that -- I never have....I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything, but this stance just makes her out to be way too altruistic, and I don't feel this is simply her.

I do not know how to clarify that point any further. I think Deneve has become consumed by the author's need to explain events. Personally, I like it when the story is left up to the reader to understand. Imagine if Yagi just explained away Teresa vs Priscilla. I believe that the the vagueness and of the story is a strength, especially for a discussion board like this. Having one character consistently explain away the plot and remove the vagueness is irritating and it feels cheap.

This only makes things worse -- because, quite frankly, why should I give a damn for what she says? If Deneve really is Yagi's spokesperson, then the ambiguity of Claymore has effectively been gutted....because we can "rest" knowing that whatever she has to say, is straight from the horse's mouth.

It doesn't help as well when, what she says, is far from the best that could have been come up with; again, it boils down too.....why should I believe her? I'm not gonna say the Dr.D stuff she's been saying is "wrong", but why should I just openly accept what she says? Is her opinion on things that valuable?

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

You have to excuse me if I still thinks thats bull****.

You seem to be mixed up, so I'll say this - do you like her because you see her as being this voice-of-reason, or because she is supposedly Yagi's mouthpiece?

Both answers make me wanna groan, but if it's both, I'm gonna throw up.

Why is that Bull shit? Its true. There really isn't anything wrong with that either. And I like Deneve because of her cool and calm personality. She is the opposite of Helen and i love it when they are together. I have also liked Deneve every since Pieta. Being Yagi's "mouth-piece" is just something about her that i don't hate.

Originally Posted by Nixl

I do not know how to clarify that point any further. I think Deneve has become consumed by the author's need to explain events. Personally, I like it when the story is left up to the reader to understand.

I don't understand how that is a bad thing. Yes sometimes it is important to leave things up to the reader but it is also important to explain things so that people can have an understanding of whats going on. Its a manga, its not super detailed and sometimes things can be lost between frames. So, it is important for the reader to understand it. And that is what Deneve does. She also explains stuff to the other Ghosts helps Miria lead them too. She is like the second-in-command.

In addition, we have had a lot of Deneve and Helen and I really would prefer to see other characters at this point in time.

Pfff. They are still far better than any of the other characters that have been in the recent chapters (except Raki).

[SagaraSouske]

A couple important things to note: (Hopefully Raw will verify)

Clare apparently is in Rabanon and Denev already has contact with her.

Awakening apparently even merges foreign objects into the new being. It literally transforms matter but ABs only have complete control of their flesh but not foreign matter that was transformed along with them.

Nike may have been spared for a reason. (Plot device?)

[Nixl]

The thing is Claymore!, was Jean's Wedge needed? With all the factors and odds surrounding Claire did we need to have a precise explanation? There were plenty of possibilities that we could have drawn from (Teresa, Raphaela's memories, the Destroyer, etc). What made it most irritating was the confidence in Deneve's explanation. To me that is more than just speculation/theory from a character that is Yagi putting in a definitive answer. That I what I hate. The explanation is so cut and dry that I barely see it as a character speaking.

Again, with this chapter did Deneve really need to fully explain Miria's actions at the end? For the sake of suspense, could Yagi not have instead have of surprise upon Deneve's face as she realizes that Miria is potentially suicide diving into 2 Abysmals just to have a chance against Hysteria? No, instead we got a very cut and dry explanation with seemed to lack emotion or suspense.

And yes, I do think Deneve explaining away the plot is a bad thing. We have had a plethora of discussion on Claymore due to the story's vagueness. The way Yagi uses Deneve crushes potential discussion.

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Nixl

The thing is Claymore!, was Jean's Wedge needed? With all the factors and odds surrounding Claire did we need to have a precise explanation? There were plenty of possibilities that we could have drawn from (Teresa, Raphaela's memories, the Destroyer, etc). What made it most irritating was the confidence in Deneve's explanation. To me that is more than just speculation/theory from a character that is Yagi putting in a definitive answer. That I what I hate. The explanation is so cut and dry that I barely see it as a character speaking.

Yes i do think it was needed. People would have been wondering how the hell she was unable to awaken. It was better to have a widely accepted idea rather than a bunch of people arguing about what happened. I would rather have an idea that was confirmed by the autor than one that was just made up by some fan.

Again, with this chapter did Deneve really need to fully explain Miria's actions at the end? For the sake of suspense, could Yagi not have instead have of surprise upon Deneve's face as she realizes that Miria is potentially suicide diving into 2 Abysmals just to have a chance against Hysteria? No, instead we got a very cut and dry explanation with seemed to lack emotion or suspense.

Again I think it is necessary. It is a serious emotional event that only can occur with two strong people (Miria and Deneve). It did not lack emotion. You just must not understand the characters well enough.

And yes, I do think Deneve explaining away the plot is a bad thing. We have had a plethora of discussion on Claymore due to the story's vagueness. The way Yagi uses Deneve crushes potential discussion.

No not really. People will just post about how much they hate something that happened in the chapter whether or not it was explained in the chapter. Discussions will continue anyways and people will probably still discuss things that are explained by Deneve so the topics aren't destroyed by her.