2009-09-29, 15:27 | Link #41 | |
Knowledge is the solution
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2009-09-29, 16:14 | Link #46 | ||
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The problems within a Confucian society structure have already been being eliminated over time, but the basic principles and lessons of life he gave us remain. Dignity, honesty, loyalty, modesty... I fail to see how those moral guidelines impeding a society's advance. If anything, Japan and China could not have their high stands in nowadays global economy without Confucian. |
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2009-09-29, 16:18 | Link #47 | |
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China 1900? Confucianism trained the mandarins very well in managing the state (sarcastic). It is truly a source of up-to-date information on dealing with barbarians and a reliable guide to international politics. It is so effective that in fact, a "barbarian" state such as Japan soundly beat the Middle Kingdom and pulled away Taiwan and Korea from its sphere of influence. That at the time when the "barbarian" white men were forcibly opening ports everywhere. Last edited by Thingle; 2009-09-29 at 16:29. |
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2009-09-29, 16:36 | Link #48 |
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I'm saying that the ethics guideline that Confucius laid out has greatly helped East Asia businesses prosper in recent decades. Is that wrong?
I don't mean Confucian is perfect. It has a huge load of problems. The ancient governments mostly interpreted Confucianism to their own benefits, forbade any questioning and therefore forbade its evolvement. But those problems is being eliminated in practical uses nowadays. |
2009-09-29, 21:02 | Link #49 | |
思想工作
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The whites and Japanese, arguably, were still barbarians, they were just barbarians with high technology. China at many times had scientists and educated people who discovered the same things the Westerners did, but didn't use them for the same ends. A good example is the Ming fleet which sailed to Africa and maybe even America, but they never went around colonizing those places. China has survived for many thousands of years. No other major culture on Earth has this sort of continuity. If you want to say anything about Confucius and Chinese philosophy, it would have to be that the Chinese mindset is actually the most effective. I'm not going to say if it is indeed the best or not, but I think it's wrong to attribute China's problems to Confucianism, or to attribute Europe and America's problems to Christ, in that case. Those philosophers were most likely much more knowledgeable and open-minded than their fellow countrymen and rulers, and you can't say it's the fault of their teachings in particular that screwed things up. |
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2009-09-29, 22:21 | Link #52 | ||
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On topic: oh haiz Confuseius. |
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2009-09-29, 22:58 | Link #53 | |
思想工作
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that sounds like the thinking of a barbarian to me
ok, it's a culture, but a different kind. the japanese and europeans were still barbarians because they were colonizing and taking advantage of other cultures without any qualms. The Chinese never had these sort of ambitions. Sure, they had really violent wars at the end of each dynasty, but all the territory China gained in ancient times was mostly through more subtle integrations, a la the greeks and romans. therefore, the actions of the west were barbaric. It has nothing to do with technology, at least not from the POV of ancient chinese philosophy. Quote:
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2009-09-30, 00:09 | Link #54 | |||
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Invasions, whether subtle or not, or in any form, are still invasions. Instead of conquering a village of 10 people, you let 100 of your people in without the host's consent then run an election the following year. Those poor 10 will rebel. Ah ha! Now you didn't invade anyone, you're just trying to quell the rebels! Or you put 1000 of your men near the village and believe that nothing funny would happen.... After a while, you defend your people to taking over the village.... How civilized! And you mentioned the Romans. Then what exactly is your problem with the West and the Japanese? Quote:
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2009-09-30, 22:26 | Link #56 | ||||
思想工作
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Yeah, probably, at least on that aspect.
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Of course, now things are different. The modern Chinese do not follow old ways so strictly, and the smaller ethnic groups are being wiped out through modern, government-sponsored Han immigration doing just fine, right? Quote:
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2009-09-30, 23:37 | Link #57 | ||||
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Uh....
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2009-10-01, 03:15 | Link #58 |
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Confucius is a great philospher. His ideas were great during his time. However, he did not personally leave behind any book relating to what he teach to his students, so what we are reading now are philosophy recollected and interpreted by his students. The reason why he didn't do it himself is because (well i believe) he knew the world would change, values would change, and his ideas would be interpreted differently or even misinterpreted. As a result, some people went to extremes and caused the technical development of China as a civilization to lag behind America and Europe for quite some time. Today, we read his philosophy to better understand our weaknesses and improve it because, at the end of the day, he is a philosopher.
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2009-10-01, 03:24 | Link #59 |
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China's Confucianism was cause-and-effect. China didn't start with Confucianism. It started with shamanism and slavery: the Shang Dynasty was all about enslaving the other tribes and offering human sacrifices to the great spirits. Then the Zhou came along, curbed some of the excesses, instigated patriarchy, and society progressed a bit. But it was still a Machiavellian game of thrones, with the aristocratic houses at the top and everybody else suffering under their feudal ways.
The chief ideology of the Chinese elite, for most of its history, has not been Confucianism. Confucianism was a reactionary movement against the clannish militarism of China's warlord rulers (for it took a warlord to impose his will upon the peasant masses). The emperors of China were cold-blooded, fratricidal killers who instigated such murderous laws as "exterminating one's relatives up to the ninth generation" for daring to speak against the throne. Yes, China's rulers were ruthless, but the masses weren't necessarily that much better. Constant banditry plagued the countryside, where corruption - then as now - reigned. Rich families dined on pork and wine while poor families starved to death on the streets. Gambling, prostitution, greed, burglary, drunkenness - these were all widespread in old China (and still are, in many ways). In light of all this, Confucius, it must be remembered, was a critic who spoke against the immorality of his time. By establishing rules of conduct and creating a common code of behavior, Confucius sought to restrain some of the bad behaviors that characterized Chinese society. Regardless of what effects the philosophy might have had, later, this was its origin and context. Besides, I wouldn't blame China's lack of progress on Confucianism. I think it has more to do with the fact that Chinese people dislike instability and change. Indeed, one might say that Asian peoples in general are very conservative (or were). |
2009-10-01, 03:31 | Link #60 | |
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