why isn't avi dying

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Please feel free to correct me on this, but I heard some while ago that working with Xvid in mkv and/or h264 in avi was either a pain in the ass or a problem on the decoding side... but I'm not too informed on the matter. I remember I had trouble playing some Xvid encoded mkv files some while ago, but that was on my dead XP installation, and I think it was an issue with CoreAVC.

You heard very wrong, xvid muxed from avi into mkv is actually exactly like an avi, though wrapped in mkv and presents no problems whatsoever. When muxed natively instead (V_MPEG4/ISO/ASP instead of V_VFW/FOURCC,xvid; this is pretty rare) it behaves almost exactly like H.264 in MKV does, with the same caveats on demuxing (you get a raw bitstream and not an AVI); some older versions of VLC break with native ASP for some reason though, but then again VLC is broken by definition so who cares.

H.264 in AVI on the other hand is really evil, both from the decoder side (even though it's fairly well "supported" (in the sense that it usually "works") these days) and the muxer/demuxer side.

edit: on an unrelated note, it seems like you STILL cannot buy CoreAVC and the Enterprise Edition is STILL "coming soon" after, what, a year and a half?

[WanderingKnight]

CoreAVC does not ever touch xvid. It decodes h264 only.

Oh, then as TheFluff points out, it must have been H264 muxed into avi.

[tritoch]

CoreAVC should be a 'gpr' instead then we can have people who actually wants to improve on it, work on it.

[martino]

Tell that to people who are (and assumable still want to) make/ing money on it.

[pparker]

Not sure this thread is even supposed to be active, but it's interesting. Just a couple of points I haven't seen mentioned. Until MKV as technology becomes invisible to its consumers and obtains broad commercial support, it won't make significant progress in replacing avi (or other formats).

Being new to this, I don't know how widely it is used outside the fansub context, but I haven't noticed it on YouTube or other video-serving sites. And it's certainly difficult to handle with the current tools. By that I don't mean the production of an MKV necessarily, but playing it, and converting it to mpg for instance. It seems to still be a niche format supported primarily by the open source community and still requiring relatively significant technical savvy to use.

It certainly is technically superior in its current context, but I wonder about the lack of, or lagging, support and usage in the broad context of video.

Sorry if this discussion is out of line or belongs elsewhere.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by pparker

Not sure this thread is even supposed to be active, but it's interesting. Just a couple of points I haven't seen mentioned. Until MKV as technology becomes invisible to its consumers and obtains broad commercial support, it won't make significant progress in replacing avi (or other formats).

It's already in wide use amongst fansubbers and the HD movie scene. As for commercial support

Originally Posted by TheFluff

, so you'll see a hardware mkv player soonish. Couple that with the fact that there are few h.264 mp4 standalones (not counting xbox 360 and PS3) out there the race is still on.

Being new to this, I don't know how widely it is used outside the fansub context, but I haven't noticed it on YouTube or other video-serving sites.

Ever noticed there was no avi on youtube either?

And it's certainly difficult to handle with the current tools. By that I don't mean the production of an MKV necessarily, but playing it,

Not at all.

and converting it to mpg for instance.

Why people like slaughtering video quality so much is beyond me, but it's certainly not rocket science.

It seems to still be a niche format supported primarily by the open source community and still requiring relatively significant technical savvy to use.

As already pointed out CCCP can be used by anyone with an IQ higher than that of a loaf of bread.

It certainly is technically superior in its current context, but I wonder about the lack of, or lagging, support and usage in the broad context of video.

Is this enough support?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

It's already in wide use amongst fansubbers and the HD movie scene.

The HD movie scene is using MKV, or H.264? I'm aware of the H.264, but if you also meant MKV, what applications are they using MKV for?

As for commercial support , so you'll see a hardware mkv player soonish. Couple that with the fact that there are few h.264 mp4 standalones (not counting xbox 360 and PS3) out there the race is still on.

It seems like a lot of people are still getting used to their DivX-capable DVD players.

As already pointed out CCCP can be used by anyone with an IQ higher than that of a loaf of bread.

Too bad it doesn't come with their computers. In order to be able to use it, they have to know about it first. Along with that, they should understand what it's for.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Apple is posed to make their .mov format the new standard over .avi. Quicktime supports H.264 and based on my very limited experience it seems that many of the professional-level video programs are designed to go with Quicktime video as the default. From where I'm working we're all using Apple systems so clearly I have a skewed view, but I don't see an opening for .mkv in any mainstream environment. Couple that with the fact that every iPod/iTunes lover out there has Quicktime on their systems, and the format is fully supported by nearly all viewers as well.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The HD movie scene is using MKV, or H.264? I'm aware of the H.264, but if you also meant MKV, what applications are they using MKV for?

For illegally distributing movies? MKV is the container that the scene's standard calls for.

It seems like a lot of people are still getting used to their DivX-capable DVD players.

Shouldn't get too used to half-baked standard support.

Too bad it doesn't come with their computers. In order to be able to use it, they have to know about it first. Along with that, they should understand what it's for.

The argument was that an easy playback solution is available. Reading stickies or generally being able to use google isn't too much to ask.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Apple is posed to make their .mov format the new standard over .avi.

When did Apple ever support avi? mp4 is a subset of mov, so yes it does have a lot of industry backing.

Quicktime supports H.264 and based on my very limited experience it seems that many of the professional-level video programs are designed to go with Quicktime video as the default. From where I'm working we're all using Apple systems so clearly I have a skewed view, but I don't see an opening for .mkv in any mainstream environment. Couple that with the fact that every iPod/iTunes lover out there has Quicktime on their systems, and the format is fully supported by nearly all viewers as well.

The opening is with people who want to play their internet warez movies on their standalones.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

When did Apple ever support avi? mp4 is a subset of mov, so yes it does have a lot of industry backing.

They don't, as far as I know. But wasn't this discussion about why the .avi format is so prevalent, and some people (I felt you were with them) were touting the .mkv format as the next standard? That may have been a fair bit of assumption on my part, so I apologize if that wasn't the case. Either way, my point was to say that a transitioning of standards from .avi to .mkv seems less likely than a .avi to .mov at this point.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

They don't, as far as I know. But wasn't this discussion about why the .avi format is so prevalent, and some people (I felt you were with them) were touting the .mkv format as the next standard?

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If I had to guess, I'd say that Apple is posed to make their .mov format the new standard over .avi.

This implies that Apple supported avi at some point, which afaik they never did. mov was always Apple's standard. As for mkv being the new standard, it _is_ the most advanced format out there atm. Lack of industry backing won't make it easy, but if it becomes the de-facto standard on the internet people will demand standalones that play it as they are doing now with avi.

Either way, my point was to say that a transitioning of standards from .avi to .mkv seems less likely than a .avi to .mov at this point.

mov is very unlikely. No one will ever use the legacy crap codecs Apple used to have in there. Now mkv vs mp4 is a fight where atm mp4 has the advantage due to xbox 360 and PS3 mostly playing it. As already pointed out though if mkv gets widely used in the HD scene it might just gain the upper hand.

[Irwin1138]

Why care if avi is dead, when you must care that mkv will live! I mean, if avi dies at last - so what? Nothing! And if mkv, for example, wont make it to the pluggable DVD\DivX\BlaBla players? Now that would be some kind of problem, isnt it? So what do you think?

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Irwin1138

Why care if avi is dead, when you must care that mkv will live! I mean, if avi dies at last - so what? Nothing! And if mkv, for example, wont make it to the pluggable DVD\DivX\BlaBla players? Now that would be some kind of problem, isnt it? So what do you think?

The problem is that with avi you get a broken product in the first place. It can't even store MPEG4 ASP (xvid, divx) to spec without problems, let alone use MPEG4 AVC's (h264) more advanced features. That is why it needs to die. mkv and mp4 are both perfectly fine when it comes to that.

[Irwin1138]

Dude, you missed the point. For us, avi is already dead, cuz WE get mkv\mp4. But for casuals its not yet dead. And I really dont care if 70% of PC users are lame and dont even know about mkv, I dont care, and why should YOU care? 8) We have our mkv's and mp4's, and thats fine! 8)

[jpwong]

Well, I'll tell you, over 50% of my active shows are now on mkv/mp4, and I some of the avis that I'm still getting is mainly because it's a holdover since the show started releasing as avi (or the non-avi versions are considerably higher res than my screen)

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Irwin1138

Dude, you missed the point. For us, avi is already dead, cuz WE get mkv\mp4. But for casuals its not yet dead. And I really dont care if 70% of PC users are lame and dont even know about mkv, I dont care, and why should YOU care? 8) We have our mkv's and mp4's, and thats fine! 8)

Debunking avi myths is the best way to get even more people to use mkv/mp4 :-)

[Farix]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Debunking avi myths is the best way to get even more people to use mkv/mp4 :-)

If only mp4 had better subtitle support. TTXT appears to be rather frustrating to work with.

[Irwin1138]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Debunking avi myths is the best way to get even more people to use mkv/mp4 :-)

Totally agreed!

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Farix

If only mp4 had better subtitle support. TTXT appears to be rather frustrating to work with.

I don't know about the quality of the underlying design, but there are at least no real tools, no DirectShow filter and no hardware player support for it. TTXT is really dead in the water right now. If it were widely supported then mp4 would be almost as good as mkv.

[[P]ako]

Originally Posted by martino

I'll have to defend emptyeighty on this one, because what you are saying is rather unreasonable. I can stop any torrent with MKV files that I have running right now and it will play. Yes, mind you, it can only play what has been downloaded, but it does play it unlike AVI for which you have to use certain tools to get to work, if at all. Maybe you are using a bad splitter (because MKV does have the features needed for previewing)... :/

I have never had a problem watching partially downloaded AVIs. No tools needed for that. MPC handles them w/o an issue. VLC player does too but it prompts you to rebuild the index, you can always click "no" and it will play the file anyway (just forget about fast seeking).

[Maceart]

It's quite simple actually.

AVI is still pretty much used by 99% of movie pirates out there. Check piratebay if you don't believe me, the number of 700 mb Xvid .avi files is quite a lot.

MKV is an open source container used pretty much only by anime fansubbers, who comprise less than 1% of all internet downloads. "The masses" don't care.