(L) Freezing [Manga]

[GendoAizenPig]

The whole mother thing is pretty weird in general. If anything Kazuha was the closest thing he had to a mother. She raised him the longest.

In my opinion, Cassandra and Orie are both Kazuya's mothers equally. Orie was mentally disturbed and wasn't able to care for him, but at least he knows through Cassandra the whole story. Just because Cassandra was able to do so because of her stigmatic body shouldn't give her an advantage. Kazuya straight up refused Orie. It's not like she had any choice the matter. Her trying to kill him puts her in a negative light, but her mental illness shouldn't be used against her. She didn't get the help she desperately needed. We saw the true Orie in spirit form, free from her illness.

That's my two cents anyways.

[DragonOsman]

Kazuya himself seems to view Cassandra as his mother, too. He also called her that after he learned about it. In a recent chapter. Kazuha raised him for longer, though, yes.

Speaking of Kazuha, do you remember what she said to Kazuya when he learned about the past with Cassandra, Orie and Ryuuichi? That even she at first didn't understand emotions and only learned about them as she raised Kazuya? Also, like Endscape said, the reason Chiffon had more emotions than the other Legendary Pandora was also in part because she was given more chances to interact with others. The other Legendary Pandora were kept in stasis most of the time so they almost never got that kind of chance. Cassandra is the one with the most emotion out of them and she did have more interactions too.

[GendoAizenPig]

Pretty sure Kazuya states he has two mothers from what I recall. I'll have to go digging to confirm though. He does call Cassandra his "true" mom, but in all honesty he never even got to meet the true Orie. He just witnessed her downward spiral in memories. It's not even a fair contest. I wish her spirit would've visited him once he got older like she did to Kazuha.

Whether or not Kazuha was faking it or not doesn't change the fact that she raised him then longest. She was so good at it he didn't believe her when she said she was faking. He, of course, wouldn't view her as a mother figure even if that's what she was.

Pretty sure Freezing Zero stated that Chiffon and Lucy were purposely made more human. That's why they were weaker too. They were made that way. Lucy just decided to be the way she is on her own.

I really don't see how Cassandra is more emotive than Windy or Lucy, but to each his own I guess. She does beat Teslad though who is pretty much a blank slate.

[DragonOsman]

Well, Cassandra does still some level of emotions either way. I'll have to reread the manga, though, I guess. I may have forgotten quite a lot of stuff.

Anyway, my point with mentioning Kazuha was that she too didn't have emotions at first, but was able to learn human emotions. Meaning that the Legendary Pandora should be able to as well if given the chance.

[GendoAizenPig]

They might, but I'm not sure using Kazuha is a good example for it. She only had a 12% Stigmatic Body after all. Meaning she was mostly human. I'd argue Gengo is why she had such a hard time to begin with, but that's just an opinion.

I think the major thing with the Legendary Pandora is if they even care to become more human like Chiffon was. Kazuya has already accepted them and Gengo made them so he doesn't care. They really don't seem to care what anyone else thinks of them so why would they change?

I mean Chiffon became more human and left to do her own stuff (like a boss). Kazuha likewise tried her best to keep Kazuya away from Gengo as she got older and more human. It seems like becoming more human = screw Gengo and his plans lol.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

They might, but I'm not sure using Kazuha is a good example for it. She only had a 12% Stigmatic Body after all. Meaning she was mostly human. I'd argue Gengo is why she had such a hard time to begin with, but that's just an opinion.

By her own admission, she was barely human like in her thinking at first, much like the older generation Legendary Pandora.

Kazuha likewise tried her best to keep Kazuya away from Gengo as she got older and more human. It seems like becoming more human = screw Gengo and his plans lol.

She only decided to keep Kazuya away from Gengo because she was trying to understand what her dad was so passionate about. The more human she got, the more she accepted Gengo's plan.

[GendoAizenPig]

If you don't think Gengo's influence had anything to do with how she acted then I don't know what to tell you. I'm sure the stigmatic tissue was part of it, but so was Gengo.

She agreed with Gengo's goal (protecting humanity and her family), but that's not the same as his plan. If there's a manga page that says she accepted his specific plans I'll gladly concede, but the way I understood it was the more human she got the more she understood the need to protect humanity.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

If you don't think Gengo's influence had anything to do with how she acted then I don't know what to tell you. I'm sure the stigmatic tissue was part of it, but so was Gengo.

Gengo was trying to get her to understand herself, since it seems women with stigmatic bodies are more easily influenced by said bodies than the men are.

She agreed with Gengo's goal (protecting humanity and her family), but that's not the same as his plan. If there's a manga page that says she accepted his specific plans I'll gladly concede, but the way I understood it was the more human she got the more she understood the need to protect humanity.

Why do you diffrentiate between his goal and his plan? They're basically the same thing.

[Tachibana]

Originally Posted by Endscape

By her own admission, she was barely human like in her thinking at first, much like the older generation Legendary Pandora.



She only decided to keep Kazuya away from Gengo because she was trying to understand what her dad was so passionate about. The more human she got, the more she accepted Gengo's plan.

This part was actually somewhat confusing. I was under the assumption that Kazuha was trying to protect Kazuya from Gengo's influence in an effort to prevent anything from happening to him like I did with Ryuuichi.

Though after Kazuya found out the truth. He also accepted Gengo's plan.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Whether or not it was intentional, Gengo was partially to blame for Kazuha's personality flaws. It's just one of the many ways he mishandled that entire situation. Gengo was her whole world as a child. It's pretty obvious he had a big influence in how she acted.

Because they're different. A goal is the endgame. The plan is the steps to reach the goal. You can agree with the goal, but not agree with someone else's journey to get there. Kazuha was able to understand Gengo's goal as she learned more about humans through her own experiences. They both wanted to save humanity, but that doesn't mean she agreed with his ways of doing it. I mean if she was completely on board with his plan why did they never reconcile? She also didn't explain it Kazuya either since he hated him for the longest time.

Another example would be Chiffon. She supported saving humanity, but apparently was not on board with being a baby maker. Heck she didn't even mention her family when she died. So she shared the same goal as Gengo, but sure as heck didn't agree with his plans.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by Tachibana

This part was actually somewhat confusing. I was under the assumption that Kazuha was trying to protect Kazuya from Gengo's influence in an effort to prevent anything from happening to him like I did with Ryuuichi.

Though after Kazuya found out the truth. He also accepted Gengo's plan.

I think he accepted it to an extent, Tachibana. He doesn't want to become Supreme Ruler of the Earth, he just wants to protect his friends and those he cares about. He's a lot more grounded than Gengo, who's gone mad over solely trying to carry the burden of humanity's fate and destroyed countless lives. And it will undoubtedly be he, not Gengo, who brings the whole war to an end.

[DragonOsman]

Kazuha told Kazuya that he's the one most suited to save humanity. That's pretty close to Gengo wanting him to lead humanity. So Kazuha all but completely agrees with the plan.

[GendoAizenPig]

In what world does saving = leading? Again if she full agreed with the plan why didn't she and Gengo reconcile? She kept her distance from him until she died. According to Ouka she died because she didn't listen to Gengo. That doesn't sound like someone who was completely on board with his plans.

She believed Kazuya had the best chance of saving humanity because he was the most human. That has nothing to do with Gengo. She believes in Kazuya.

@Alhazad2003

Couldn't have said it better myself. Kazuya wants to be an ally of mankind, not a leader. It's completely different.

A lot of this is in chapter 195. Kazuha saying that Kazuya has to "side" with mankind. It's also where he mentions the power his two moms gave him. Heck 196 even makes a comparison between Kazuha and Chiffon, which further supports what I said. Unless you think Chiffon supported Gengo's plan too. Kazuya agrees with Chiffon and Kazuha. He agrees that humanity should be protected. That's it. He doesn't want to lead humanity. He just wants to eradicated the Nova and save it.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by Tachibana

This part was actually somewhat confusing. I was under the assumption that Kazuha was trying to protect Kazuya from Gengo's influence in an effort to prevent anything from happening to him like I did with Ryuuichi.

Though after Kazuya found out the truth. He also accepted Gengo's plan.

I am kinda too lazy to look for parts where it was said in manga so I will quote wiki(I didnt find any mistakes in wiki to this point so I find it trustworthy):
"After the death of both of Kazuha's parents, the dynamic of their relationship changed dramatically. Kazuha blamed Gengo's machinations for her parents' deaths and became distant from him. She also vowed to protect her younger brother from their grandfather. This emotional distance eventually became a physical distance as well. During her tenure as a Genetics cadet, Kazuha admitted that she only became a Pandora to get herself and Kazuya away from their grandfather."

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

Whether or not it was intentional, Gengo was partially to blame for Kazuha's personality flaws. It's just one of the many ways he mishandled that entire situation. Gengo was her whole world as a child. It's pretty obvious he had a big influence in how she acted.

Normally I would agree, but considering she had the whole transcendant will thing working on her, I can't really tell.

I mean if she was completely on board with his plan why did they never reconcile?

First, we have no idea about the state of their relationship near the end. Second, even if she did agree with his goal and plans, that doesn't mean she'd be OK with him personally.

She also didn't explain it Kazuya either since he hated him for the longest time.

Explaining that to Kazuya would mean telling him everything, which she wasn't willing to do. Plus, all we know is that Kazuya hated Gengo since Kazuha died, we don't know how he felt about him previously.

Another example would be Chiffon. She supported saving humanity, but apparently was not on board with being a baby maker. Heck she didn't even mention her family when she died. So she shared the same goal as Gengo, but sure as heck didn't agree with his plans.

Honestly, I don't think the author had even thought of the Legendary Pandora at that point.

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

According to Ouka she died because she didn't listen to Gengo. That doesn't sound like someone who was completely on board with his plans.

Considering how she died that's no proof at all.

[DragonOsman]

^Yep.

Kazuha was under the influence of the Transcendent Will, and she also didn't understand human emotions at first. She wasn't human for most of her life and she only learned to be human from raising Kazuya. So she was pretty close to the Legendary Pandora in that regard.

But yeah, I'll concede that saving =/= leading and that Kazuya only wants to do the former. But let's just wait and see.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Chiffon had a person to teach her about humans and understanding them provided by Gengo. If Kazuha was having such a hard time, why didn't he provide her one as well? She learned from being around humans eventually so I still blame him for not helping her.

If Gengo and Kazuha reconciled, it would've been mentioned or shown by now. Everything suggests that their relationship was irreparably damaged. Also if she agreed with everything he was doing, what reason would she have for not liking him? Her parents died because they went against the plan. You can't really blame Gengo for that if you agree with him.

Kazuya and Gengo having a relationship didn't require him knowing the truth of everything. Kazuha was confirmed a professional faker. She would've found a way for them to have a relationship if she herself had reconciled with him. I mean Gengo probably would've agreed not to tell him if Kazuha had used it as a condition for them to have a relationship.

Piss poor writing doesn't preclude using Chiffon in arguments though.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

Chiffon had a person to teach her about humans and understanding them provided by Gengo. If Kazuha was having such a hard time, why didn't he provide her one as well? She learned from being around humans eventually so I still blame him for not helping her.

Kazuha did have people to teach her how to be human; her parents.

If Gengo and Kazuha reconciled, it would've been mentioned or shown by now.

We know barely anything about Kazuha and Gengo’s relationship to begin with. Her whole reason for avoiding him was because of other people. Even we she spoke of him, she didn’t seem particularly upset with him.

Also if she agreed with everything he was doing, what reason would she have for not liking him? Her parents died because they went against the plan. You can't really blame Gengo for that if you agree with him.

You can agree with what someone is doing and not with them personally.

Kazuya and Gengo having a relationship didn't require him knowing the truth of everything. Kazuha was confirmed a professional faker. She would've found a way for them to have a relationship if she herself had reconciled with him. I mean Gengo probably would've agreed not to tell him if Kazuha had used it as a condition for them to have a relationship.

It’s not as if Kazuya and Gengo are total strangers even now. They’ve had some level of a relationship

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Gengo had experience dealing with his daughter's issues with emotions. Kazuha was having problems connecting with her mother. He could've given her a teacher like he did Chiffon. He could've done more. For a guy that likes to control everything, it's baffling that he didn't help with something when he was clearly needed.

So because Kazuha didn't bad mouth her grandfather, who happens to be seen as the Savior of Humanity, to other Pandora that means they had a good relationship? I don't really see that as evidence of anything. It would've been pointless to do. I still stand by that if she and Gengo had any sort of reconciliation it would've been shown. It's doubtful they did.

She stated in chapter 195 that what she was protecting was "a little different" than what Gengo was trying to protect. That implies she didn't even have the same goals. Just because she said she understood him better doesn't mean she agreed with his plans.

I'm not sure how he could've had much of a relationship with Gengo though. When they were living with him, he was barely around. When Kazuha took him with her, it was to keep him away from Gengo. So that covers the first 11 years of his life. Those last four would be the only time when it was even plausible that they met, and he hated him because of Kazuha's death during that. Heck he didn't even financially support them when they moved out. I figure he needed his permission to enroll at Genetics, but there's really no room for anything else. It's very unlikely he sought him out or even regularly spoke to him.

Best I can come up with is that he forced Kazuya to meet him a few times, but that doesn't really mean much.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape
Gengo had experience dealing with his daughter's issues with emotions. Kazuha was having problems connecting with her mother. He could've given her a teacher like he did Chiffon. He could've done more. For a guy that likes to control everything, it's baffling that he didn't help with something when he was clearly needed.

Again, she has parents. Gengo can teach her how to understand herself as a Pandora, shouldn't her parents be able to teach her to be human?

Besides, how much interference with her life do you think her parents would tolerate? It's one thing for her to spend time with her grandfather, it's another for him to interfere with her education more than he already was.

It would've been pointless to do. I still stand by that if she and Gengo had any sort of reconciliation it would've been shown. It's doubtful they did.

We would need to see them interacting first, Even in the flashbak, did we ever actually see them speaking together on screen? We didn't even see that in Zero.

She stated in chapter 195 that what she was protecting was "a little different" than what Gengo was trying to protect. That implies she didn't even have the same goals. Just because she said she understood him better doesn't mean she agreed with his plans.

When we have no idea what that 'little different' means, it's pointless to use that as an example. Gengo wants to save humanity. Everything else is just a process. Kazuha clearly agrees with that plan, to the point that she was encouraging Kazuya to fight, even though she started off not wanting him involved.

I'm not sure how he could've had much of a relationship with Gengo though. When they were living with him, he was barely around. When Kazuha took him with her, it was to keep him away from Gengo. So that covers the first 11 years of his life. Those last four would be the only time when it was even plausible that they met, and he hated him because of Kazuha's death during that. Heck he didn't even financially support them when they moved out. I figure he needed his permission to enroll at Genetics, but there's really no room for anything else. It's very unlikely he sought him out or even regularly spoke to him.

Kazuah could not have taken Kazuya away from Gengo right from birth,. Judging from her conversation with Elize and Yumi, she moved out when she went to Genetics.

Plus, when Kazuya videochatted with Gengo and brought Stella to his house, he clearly acted like and referenced spending some measure of time with him.