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Old 2011-10-26, 08:50   Link #1161
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Oh god these discussion bring me back to time when Angel Beats aired
And the argument that you guys using is the exact same.
At least Angel Beats didn't disappoint me that much Kanade > Inori
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Old 2011-10-26, 09:38   Link #1162
Fevvers
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Honestly, absurd doesn't even justify this. I think it's the defenders who need to calm down for one. No one's trolling. People don't like an episode and state their reasons why, big freaking deal.

As for me, I liked Tetsuo Araki's Kurozuka (which I know was flawed in its own way, but still..) and expected a lot from the studio who made shows such as GiTs/Eden of the East/Seirei no Moribito, and what I get is a shounen/blockbuster ramp pretending to be GiTs, and that is laughable. The creators don't even know what it wants to be. Sorry to say but two episodes in should have been enough to hook an audience (other series have done that, no reason why this one should be exempt from that criticism).

I'm still hoping that Araki would get off the High School of the Dead bandwagon (with the creepy fan service and all) and the confused direction because I truly believe he could do better (i.e. Kurozuka and Aoi Bungaku's second arc).
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Old 2011-10-26, 09:53   Link #1163
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
At least Angel Beats didn't disappoint me that much Kanade > Inori
You mean YUI yeah


Gods there's plenty of bits in this show to speculate over rather than near 60 pages worth of roundabout complaints and repeated parries from both sides...

Like how the hell Gai knows psycho-blondie would generate a kaleidoscope....and why a kaleidoscope rather than a strait-jacket...
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:28   Link #1164
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
And so far I see a fair number of things worth criticizing, and the large amount of complaints as quite valid.
Sure, there's lots of things to criticize:
* The main character is a wimp, who suddenly knows how to kick ass once he gets his superpower
* Inori is not completely with the program
* The gunshot from a mecha that shattered the vial holding the Void Genome did not rip Shuu to bloody chunks.
* The villains for the first two episodes were just cackling assholes
* Gai putting himself in danger and letting Shuu be the crux of his plan

And on the plus side, we have:
* The flashback Shuu got when he first received the power
* Gai being a shady character
* Action
* Eyecandy/Fanservice

But instead of any of that, all we've gotten for the last few pages is "ZOMG this show does not match the expectations I got from the trailer and hype generated by marketers and wanking fans!"
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:31   Link #1165
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Those kind of reasons could actually be the reasons why people are saying it's not meeting their expectations you know...
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:34   Link #1166
Westlo
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Preorder ranking for Guilty Crown doesn't look promising. It might become another Nichijou if it doesn't show something like Mamiru and such.
Sitting @ #135 nearly a full week after the second episode is nowhere near being Nichijou like. I know you said might but it's not comparable at all right now, Nichijou peaked in the 40's when it got solicited (after 4 episodes IIRC) and than dropped off the face of the Earth. GC was in the Top 20 for a while, slowly slid down the Top 100 and will probably jump back into the Top 100 after Episode 3 airs.

Atm it's still looking like a Top 5 seller this season; behind Persona 4 (mediocrity rewarded, awesome), Working 2, Horizon and Hagani. Heck it's ahead of Hagani atm and that has had one extra episode aired. Heck at least it's not ranked @ nearly 700 like another high profile series....
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:40   Link #1167
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Those kind of reasons could actually be the reasons why people are saying it's not meeting their expectations you know...
They had "expectations" from marketing and fanwank before the show even began. Why people pay attention to that meaningless crap is beyond me. But rather than saying that they are disappointed, they're saying that the show is disappointing, implying that this show is somehow worse than other shows. It is not. At worst, it is average, and does not deserve any more hatred than other average shows.
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:44   Link #1168
fertygo
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
They had "expectations" from marketing and fanwank before the show even began. Why people pay attention to that meaningless crap is beyond me. But rather than saying that they are disappointed, they're saying that the show is disappointing, implying that this show is somehow worse than other shows. It is not. At worst, it is average, and does not deserve any more hatred than other average shows.
No one crying "this is worse show eva"

The defender should lay down a bit, backlash is a sign for success. Hell the production committee might hoping for this actually.
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:47   Link #1169
Haak
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
They had "expectations" from marketing and fanwank before the show even began. Why people pay attention to that meaningless crap is beyond me. But rather than saying that they are disappointed, they're saying that the show is disappointing, implying that this show is somehow worse than other shows. It is not. At worst, it is average, and does not deserve any more hatred than other average shows.
I'm pretty sure they're making both cases, actually. In which case their arguments for it being actually bad are actually based on something.
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:50   Link #1170
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
No one crying "this is worse show eva"
Now there's a strawman. I'm not saying that people are complaining this is the worst show ever. I'm saying that this is actually among the better shows this season, but people are posting pages upon pages of complaints here instead of other shows' threads.

Quote:
The defender should lay down a bit, backlash is a sign for success. Hell the production committee might hoping for this actually.
Most politicians would disagree about backlash.
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:53   Link #1171
Haak
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The whole reason this entire debate started in the first place was because some people were calling this show generic: in other words average. And you said it yourself that it could at least be considered average.
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Old 2011-10-26, 10:56   Link #1172
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
I'm saying that this is actually among the better shows this season, but people are posting pages upon pages of complaints here instead of other shows' threads.
Well that's your opinion. I think this is a below average show so far. I admit the show isn't worse than my expectations only because after reading the summary I had low expectations to begin with. I will give it a few more episodes and then I will probably drop it. I expect there are other people like me so you will probably stop seeing so many negative thoughts because most of us will probably have left the thread.


However "among the better shows this season" not even close. Fate Zero, Hunter X Hunter & Chihayafuru now those are the better shows this season.

Even a show like Tamayura Hitotose (which is not really for me) is much better than this show to me.

Of course that is just my opinion, you don't have to share it. You are free to think Guilty Crown is the best show of the season. And if you feel that way then I hope you enjoy it. But not everyone is going to feel the same.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:00   Link #1173
justsomeguy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The whole reason this entire debate started in the first place was because some people were calling this show generic: in other words average. And you said it your self that it could at least be considered average.
Well, I didn't bother reading that far back, since I have no desire to wade through Code Geass comparisons and complaints. My main point is, overly high expectations is causing people to judge this show more harshly than other shows, and that yes, generic by definition would be average. Hence, the show itself is not "disappointing," which would be worse than average (which is what psgel's ridiculous review would imply).

My advice to the haters is this: Get rid of those expectations and just watch the damn show for what it is. We're only two episodes in, after all. There's plenty of time to complain later if the plot falls into kiddy cartoon territory.

@Kirarakim: Of course I don't think that way. I don't pick a "best show" until after the season ends, and since most of the shows are 2-cour, it's gonna be a long time. And no, I don't think that Fate Zero is a better show than this. It took way too long to get started, which as I've said in the Fall First Impressions thread, is the exact opposite approach to P4, which was flawed in that it rushed right into the plot without establishing setting and characters. IMO this is the only show that started out right, discounting Gundam AGE which took the traditional Gundam beginning.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:06   Link #1174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
They had "expectations" from marketing and fanwank before the show even began. Why people pay attention to that meaningless crap is beyond me. But rather than saying that they are disappointed, they're saying that the show is disappointing, implying that this show is somehow worse than other shows. It is not. At worst, it is average, and does not deserve any more hatred than other average shows.
Agreed.

By Guilty Crown getting hated on more than most average shows, the implicit point being made is that it's better to aim for mediocrity and achieve that than it is to aim for greatness and fall short (hence being a mediocrity, at worst).

The core message there is that anime studios should never aim for greatness, because you're better off just trying to be average, and pleasing some people that way. That's not a message that I think is a good one for the anime industry. As disappointed as I ultimately was with Angel Beats! and Star Driver, I'm still glad that P.A. Works and Bones (respectively) aimed for something special there, even if both shows did go off the rails a bit at times.


I also think that it's important to realize that action-packed shows with complex/detailed plots are much more likely to have plot holes that you can nitpick at than a slice of life show is likely to have them, which is why I think there is a bit of genre bias going on when shows like Guilty Crown are nitpicked to death over their plots but slice of life shows are just judged by how heartwarming or atmospherically pleasing they are. Here are a couple analogies that I would draw that I think are fair...

Judging a slice of life/drama show solely by how heartwarming it is = Judging an action-packed blockbuster-y show solely by how pleasing the action scenes are to the eyes (so why is Guilty Crown not getting more comments on the quality of the action alone, when slice of life shows are often judged solely by how heartwarming they are?)

Judging an action-packed blockbuster-y show by nitpicking its plot holes = Judging a slice of life show/drama show by nitpicking its characterization


In my mind, Guilty Crown's plot being nitpicked to death is like characterization in slice of life shows being nitpicked to death, and honestly, I don't see a lot of that in big budget slice of life shows. I mean, Menma's episodic crying was almost given a total pass in Anohana, yet a lot of "Rule of Cool" leading to some unreal moments is critiqued heavily here in this show. In both cases, these are embellishments done to achieve great emotional effect. If it's Ok for a slice of life/drama show to play up the melodrama why isn't it Ok for an action-packed blockbuster-y type show to have Rambo moments where the main protagonists somehow survive what one would think to be instant death? Honestly, I wouldn't even watch an action-packed show if I wasn't willing to let scenes like this slide a bit.


I also don't see how Shu is any worse whatsoever than Yuki from Mirai Nikki. Both characters I think are Ok. Certainly nothing special, but Ok. Both could be portrayed as emo, but also have their good points.

Yet, in the Guilty Crown series thread, Shu is bashed heavily, to the point that people think he should be wrote out of the anime entirely, while Yuki is defended at great length in the Mirai Nikki series thread and even praised to some degree. Not only that, but whereas some posters wrote Shu off entirely after only an episode or two, the standard line I'm getting on Yuki is "Give him time. He'll get better, so give him time".

Well, why can't Shu be "given time"? Or Inori for that matter? Why do people feel compelled to judge major characters in this show right away, whereas in a lot of other shows the standard line is "Give them time"? I can't even say that this is an anime original thing, because I saw the same "Give them time" defenses wrote for certain Hanasaku Iroha characters (and by and large, those defenses ended up being valid, so they may be valid here in Guilty Crown too).

I also don't see how Mirai Nikki is any less serious than Guilty Crown is. Mirai Nikki's third episode felt quite serious to me.


I certainly don't mind people having a very negative reaction to a particular episode, but it's writing off shows and characters based on an episode or two that strikes me as pretty severe (unless you're dealing with something that can very easily be genre categorized after an episode or two, and I don't think that's the case here).
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:14   Link #1175
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
@Kirarakim: Of course I don't think that way. I don't pick a "best show" until after the season ends, and since most of the shows are 2-cour, it's gonna be a long time. And no, I don't think that Fate Zero is a better show than this. It took way too long to get started, which as I've said in the Fall First Impressions thread, is the exact opposite approach to P4, which was flawed in that it rushed right into the plot without establishing setting and characters. IMO this is the only show that started out right, discounting Gundam AGE which took the traditional Gundam beginning.
Well now this is where we get to the bottom of it. This is what you think not what I think.

Everyone is going to feel differently and people on here are criticizing Guilty Crown because unlike you we don't think this show was the only show that started out right. I think it had a extremely mediocre start. No it didn't bore me and I thought the character Gai & the girl in the wheel chair were somewhat interesting but other than that I found it completely underwhelming and extremely cliche (and it has all the types of cliches I personally hate). Bottom line is the more I think about the show the more I wonder why am I wasting my time watching it. And that's certainly not a promising start for a show in my eyes.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:23   Link #1176
fertygo
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post

Most politicians would disagree about backlash.
Well the entertainment business have different theories.

The most popular stuff out there is always have the most critical view.

Lady Gaga, Backstreet boys, Miami Heat, K-ON, Angel beats, see the pattern?
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:26   Link #1177
justsomeguy
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Well now this is where we get to the bottom of it. This is what you think not what I think.

Everyone is going to feel differently and people on here are criticizing Guilty Crown because unlike you we don't think this show was the only show that started out right. I think it had a extremely mediocre start. No it didn't bore me and I thought the character Gai & the girl in the wheel chair were somewhat interesting but other than that I found it completely underwhelming and extremely cliche (and it has all the types of cliches I personally hate). Bottom line is the more I think about the show the more I wonder why am I wasting my time watching it. And that's certainly not a promising start for a show in my eyes.
You miss the point. I don't care if you think that this show had a mediocre start. What I do care about is the excessive bashing that this show is taking, while other shows with flaws get off relatively light. It's as if there's a faction dedicated to hating this show.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:28   Link #1178
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My advice to the haters is this: Get rid of those expectations and just watch the damn show for what it is. We're only two episodes in, after all. There's plenty of time to complain later if the plot falls into kiddy cartoon territory.
I think you're overestimating the number of people who follows the thread outside of airing date. I stopped following this for a week and came back thinking there might be some interesting posts, but it's the same bickering. If you want people to stop "hating" on the series, I think it's best to ignore the hate posts because let's face it, even the "haters" just want to say their pieces and even they know their opinions have been resonated 2000x before already (but they just want to say them anyway). You can't change the opinion of the mass in a single thread. They come in, say what they dislike/like, maybe read a page or more and leave. Nobody sits around the thread of a series that they found disappointing.

Just like fertygo said, lay down the zealotry for a bit. If you have confidence in the series, opinions will change over time.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I certainly don't mind people having a very negative reaction to a particular episode, but it's writing off shows and characters based on an episode or two that strikes me as pretty severe (unless you're dealing with something that can very easily be genre categorized after an episode or two, and I don't think that's the case here).
I bet over 99% of the people who watched 1-2 will still watch 3. Comparing Yuki to Shuu is just unfair. The defenders of Yuki are mostly manga readers. Yuki gets crapton of shit in stream comments too, but mywife (lolol Gasa/i我妻) is the one who made the series interesting.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:29   Link #1179
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Atm it's still looking like a Top 5 seller this season; behind Persona 4 (mediocrity rewarded, awesome), Working 2, Horizon and Hagani. Heck it's ahead of Hagani atm and that has had one extra episode aired. Heck at least it's not ranked @ nearly 700 like another high profile series....
Don't tell me that's Fate/Zero
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:30   Link #1180
Kirarakim
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You miss the point. I don't care if you think that this show had a mediocre start. What I do care about is the excessive bashing that this show is taking, while other shows with flaws get off relatively light. It's as if there's a faction dedicated to hating this show.
Well maybe because other people

1) Don't think other shows they are watching have flaws
2) Are not watching these other shows with flaws

Like I said after the initial impressions of Guilty Crown are done I am sure you will see less criticism because the people who are criticizing the most will probably have dropped the show & have moved on.

But certainly Guilty Crown is not the only series I criticized this season.
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