Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

What Shinn said my be true but i'm pretty sure Cagalli has heard that line before in the 2 year gap, orb would have had to say that same line. so why would she be flustered hearing it for the 100th time?

I wouldn't describe Cagalli as being flustered here. She was just initially surprised at Shinn's outburst.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by ingram1106

Why did zaft developed GUNDAM?
Feds manufactured GUNDAM first.
There was no technological tie-up from Feds to zaft.
Nevertheless, I would like to know the circumstances where GUNDAM was developed.
I think that it cannot usually be.
To have the appearance of an enemy's ms may be aimed from an ally.

Orb build them, with Feds >>> Orb scientists who have access to that secrets data give it to ZAFT (That why impulse look like Strike )

though ZAFT already have Gundam technology from 4 stolen gundams and built Freedom/Justice/Providence
but for some reason they didn't use that technology with first 4 gundam
e.g: nuclear reactor >>> I guess they don't trust them yet

or only need the data to build their own upgrade version with ZAFT scientists >>> Destiny/Legend

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Because shades.

As for Shinn, it's because his words are pretty much true. Cagalli's Father was overly idealistic and it cost the lives of many and he was too naive to even get his own house in order. There's also the fact that the Feds never forgave ZAFT or vice versa after the last war. Thus telling Durandal he shouldn't be building weapons when the Feds already are is overly idealistic and will only lead to even more deaths.

People would have died no matter what Uzumi did. As Kira put it, if Orb sided with the Earth Forces, ZAFT would have been the ones to attack them. If Orb sided with ZAFT, vice versa on who would attack Orb. It was a no-win situation for Orb. They did the only thing they could, stand up for themselves.

Cagalli was the naive one. Uzumi at least built up Orb's power so they wouldn't be bullied. Cagalli tried to up hold Orb's ideals with rainbows and fancy nice sounding words with nothing to back them up. But, that is due to her being young and inexperienced( why she was always off guard by Shinn's counter-points and easily manipulated by the Soran's...).

[Rising Dragon]

Given how she saw things operate in the first season, it was stupid of her to act or believe that way; she already knew better. She acted like she did in Destiny because they needed someone like her acting like that.

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by quagmire

People would have died no matter what Uzumi did. As Kira put it, if Orb sided with the Earth Forces, ZAFT would have been the ones to attack them. If Orb sided with ZAFT, vice versa on who would attack Orb. It was a no-win situation for Orb. They did the only thing they could, stand up for themselves.

Cagalli was the naive one. Uzumi at least built up Orb's power so they wouldn't be bullied. Cagalli tried to up hold Orb's ideals with rainbows and fancy nice sounding words with nothing to back them up. But, that is due to her being young and inexperienced( why she was always off guard by Shinn's counter-points and easily manipulated by the Soran's...).

Yes, Exactly. It is easy to look awesome, being mavarick and fight without having to lead anyone. While being a leader you need to consider a lot of things. Cagalli was a better fighter than diplomat so I think her character was portrayed justly in Destiny. Leadership is a quality not many has.

[Destined_Fate]

I believe they had her act that way because they wanted her to fill in the void of her Father. It was very out of character since even up to the end of SEED Cagalli was willing to fight her hardest if it meant peace and hated it when she was talked down to by her Father. I also assume they wanted to play up her guilt over her relationship with her Father and the trauma she faced when Orb was destroyed the first time thus she became scared and shunned logic that she used to agree with. Even Kira of all people needed to slap sense into Cagalli after the whole wedding thing.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

It more like she saying not build weapon using their Orb technology
(It like have black/white usa citizen working in weapon technology ( e.g. phantom plane) >>> when he go back to Africa/EU he give all his knowledge that country = no way USA will like that)

Though Orb don't have time for that since they are busy rebuilding themselves >>> it was Feds who was angry at Orb letting their citizen give all of their weapon technology for ZAFT for free

Which is folly.

ZAFT took in willing Orb refugees when Orb was ruined. They aren't going to deny them the option of employment and none of the Orb Refugees were forced to give up Orb secrets, they all did it willingly. Besides, telling them to not use it would mean that the Orb Refugees would have a harder time landing jobs as much of their career in MS, maintenance, and the such is based off Orb technology in the first place.

Thus Durandal has no control in what the Orb Refugees choose to share and say. It just so happened that the Orb Refugees ended up being extremely helpful due to their willingness in that regard to help.

Originally Posted by The American Average

What Shinn said my be true but i'm pretty sure Cagalli has heard that line before in the 2 year gap, orb would have had to say that same line. so why would she be flustered hearing it for the 100th time?

Because people aren't as open as Shinn. Such as Rey who does agree with Shinn's thoughts but he remains respectful and holds his tongue because of Cagalli's position. Had Cagalli been just a civie I'm sure Rey would have given her a tongue lashing too for not understanding the reality of things.

[Aquaman OS]

Cagalli tends to break down at the slightest hint that Uzumi's Orb ideals weren't loved by all. It happens whenever Shinn goes off on her, it's pretty much the reason Yuna is able to control her (If we do what you say Orb will be burned again! Plus angry stares from the staff pretty much broke her and made her agree to the wedding.) and even during the sea battles she freezes up and cries when the Orb soldiers show they don't want to listen to her. It's only at the end of Destiny when anyone who would have said otherwise was convieniently killed in the Zaft invasion of Orb is she able to be confident again.

Of course again, her personality was not nearly like this in Seed, but in Destiny she's now someones younger sister, which according to Japanese character tradition means she's needs to be emotionally vulnerable and protectable.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Which is folly.

ZAFT took in willing Orb refugees when Orb was ruined. They aren't going to deny them the option of employment and none of the Orb Refugees were forced to give up Orb secrets, they all did it willingly. Besides, telling them to not use it would mean that the Orb Refugees would have a harder time landing jobs as much of their career in MS, maintenance, and the such is based off Orb technology in the first place.

Work = Sure
Give your own country secret technology to other people with your own choice= traitors

They coould work on ZAFT technology but no they have to sell their own mother land technology for money...

Simple example
Someone work for sony > ps3 division
Some trouble happened and he leave to other company > SE

Is it legal to copy 99% of ps3 technology and name it ps33?
Working on Xbox sure but not ps3 and name it ps33

They just built gundam using 100% of their own mother land secret technology for money instead of workings on Zaku

Oh wait.. ZAFT don't want them to get near it since you know... they might sell it to Orb or other Organization...
After all they already sold their own mother country that perish to ash just to protect them

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Given how she saw things operate in the first season, it was stupid of her to act or believe that way; she already knew better. She acted like she did in Destiny because they needed someone like her acting like that.

Actually, I believe she acted like she did in Destiny because of what she saw in SEED with GENESIS and nuclear weapons.

Her belief is that too much military power should not be needed, especially in what was supposed to be a time of peace and rebuilding after the last war. And this is also supposedly agreed upon by ZAFT and the EA, which is why the peace treaty put restrictions on the amount of military power that each country may maintain going forward.

That said, I'm sure ZAFT was still in accordance with the limitations set by the treaty at this point in the series. So it's a matter of Cagalli's opinion of what constitutes too much power. Although, the fact that three mobile suits could wreak such damage does make one wonder whether they are needed in time of peace. They were apparently powerful enough that the AF would risk starting another war just to have them. And that's not even counting the Impulse and the Minerva.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I believe they had her act that way because they wanted her to fill in the void of her Father. It was very out of character since even up to the end of SEED Cagalli was willing to fight her hardest if it meant peace and hated it when she was talked down to by her Father.

The problem is that they're already supposedly in peace. It's one thing to fight for peace and it's another to display such fighting power in time of peace.

[Destined_Fate]

That's on Cagalli. She hasn't asked that they be returned and tried as Traitors and if she did than public opinion in Orb and ZAFT would turn severely against her. So she can only berate Durandal even though it isn't his fault at all that he's making use of willing ORB refugees.

Besides, sharing ORB technology makes it easier for them to land a high paying job, especially as they aren't ZAFT citizens and not all people of ORB are even Coordinators. It would also take them far too long to just toss out their ORB knowledge and try and learn ZAFT stuff instead of just taking what they know and applying it to ZAFT knowledge that they will pick up on the job.

So the only legit recourse that Cagalli could have done is demand the traitors be returned and tried which would have had severe backlash for her. Thus all she can do is complain even though she knows Durandal can't change what the ORB refugees want to share.

Besides, there are also those from ORB that think like Shinn and see ORB letting their families die as a betrayal. They also strongly believe that had ORB been stronger than things may have been different. Especially when you consider that ORB would have fallen extremely quickly without data from the Strike and help from the Buster and the ZAFT Gundams - Freedom and Justice.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Work = Sure
Give your own country secret technology to other people with your own choice= traitors

They coould work on ZAFT technology but no they have to sell their own mother land technology for money...

Simple example
Someone work for sony > ps3 division
Some trouble happened and he leave to other company > SE

Is it legal to copy 99% of ps3 technology and name it ps33?
Working on Xbox sure but not ps3 and name it ps33

They just built gundam using 100% of their own mother land secret technology for money instead of workings on Zaku

Oh wait.. ZAFT don't want them to get near it since you know... they might sell it to Orb or other Organization...
After all they already sold their own mother country that perish to ash just to protect them

You have to remember that Orb was a "neutral" country to its citizens, which consists of BOTH Naturals and Coordinators

Its pretty easy to see the Coordinator scientists switching over to ZAFT after what the Federation did to their country

ZAFT also had Orb tech ever since they captured the 4 GAT suits, and as we saw, were easily capable of making stronger suits in SEED (the ZAFT X series, aka the suits with the N-jammer tech and nuclear drives)

Last I checked Impulse looked the way it was simply because it was a homage to the Strike, it had nothing to do with anything else. Anyone can make a Gundam resemble another Gundam, people aren't blind

Im also assuming English is not your first language from the way your sentences are contructed (dont worry Im not hating on u for it)

[Destined_Fate]

Note that ZAFT welcomed all ORB citizens - Natural and Coordinator even when the top management in ZAFT during SEED was extremely racist against Naturals. Obviously the Naturals defecting to ZAFT didn't make up that large a number until after SEED when ZAFT lowered its stance against Naturals.

Besides, better ZAFT than the Feds who had just torched their country.

Of course a good number of ORB citizens did return after SEED when the Feds left ORB and ORB started rebuilding. ZAFT had no issue with this, as no one was being held there against their will, unless they had willingly signed a binding contract to remain in ZAFT - such as joining the military.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Besides, sharing ORB technology makes it easier for them to land a high paying job, especially as they aren't ZAFT citizens and not all people of ORB are even Coordinators. It would also take them far too long to just toss out their ORB knowledge and try and learn ZAFT stuff instead of just taking what they know and applying it to ZAFT knowledge that they will pick up on the job.

Only one major problem with that. The Junis Seven treaty made it illegal for Orb to share it's technology with either ZAFT or EA. Knowingly allowing morgenrate techncians to work for or otherwise aid ZAFT in the development of new weapons can be seen as violating the treaty. Which was the primary reason Cagali confronted Durandal. His seeming refusal to remove Orb techs from such positions made it look like Orb was helping ZAFT violate the treaty.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Only one major problem with that. The Junis Seven treaty made it illegal for Orb to share it's technology with either ZAFT or EA. Knowingly allowing morgenrate techncians to work for or otherwise aid ZAFT in the development of new weapons can be seen as violating the treaty. Which was the primary reason Cagali confronted Durandal. His seeming refusal to remove Orb techs from such positions made it look like Orb was helping ZAFT violate the treaty.

They technically already violated the treaty by repairing and maintaining the Freedom.....

The EA also broke the treaty. I believe mirage colloid was also outlawed in it, but the Phantom Pain ship( name escaping me right now) was equipped with it.

[Rising Dragon]

It was. Ultimately the treaty was meaningless, they still developed weapons forbidden to it and failed to deal with the issues that lead to the hostility in the first place, such as the dismantling of Blue Cosmos in the EA's political structure.

[S.Freedom]

@quagmire I'm not sure I get your meaning. How was rebuilding the Freedom in violation of the treaty?

Otherwise I agree it was meaningless. Almost like whoever drafted it was intentionally writing it in such a way that it would be broken and start another war. Almost as if it was meant to give all the sides just enough time to rebuild their militaries for another big fight. Of course that's just fanwanky speculation on my part.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@quagmire I'm not sure I get your meaning. How was rebuilding the Freedom in violation of the treaty?

The Freedom is a mobile suit equipped with a nuclear reactor and thus an N-Jammer Canceler, the latter of which is illegal to equip on mobile suits after the Junius Treaty was ratified. By rebuilding the Freedom, Terminal or Orb, whichever did the reconstruction, violated the treaty.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@quagmire I'm not sure I get your meaning. How was rebuilding the Freedom in violation of the treaty?

They rebuilt and maintained a nuclear powered mobile suit. Another thing the treaty outlawed.....

And rising, even if it was Terminal that rebuilt it, the fact that Orb was in possession of it could be seen as a violation. Though I guess the loophole is that it wasn't officially a part of the Orb military( along with the Archangel).

[Aquaman OS]

It was repaired after the battle, before the treaty was in effect. And Kira and Lacus kept it under their house, never wanting it to be used. And they used it independently. It was never fielded by the Orb military.

[Rising Dragon]

It's use and existence still violated the treaty, regardless of when it was restored. If you wanted to bandy words politically, you can still claim that the Freedom was a ZAFT creation, regardless of who used it, and you know the EA would've loved to use that against them concerning the treaty.

That said, I don't think anyone knows when exactly the Freedom was restored. It could very well have been rebuilt after the treaty went into effect.