Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Arkeus]

Cough cough.

You are forgetting the "generator" that the numbers blew up in the HQ.

Nah, there definitely is some kind og magical power sources (ala nuclear plants) that power things like electricty and so on.

Why they don't use those for mage weapons? That's...something that bothered me for a while, but my answer is that it's *hard* to control without linker core. And politics. And plotohole.

[Jimmy C]

My preferred in-universe explaination is politics. The existence of things like the training autospheres imply that control doesn't appear to be an issue. Therefore, the reason the TSAB does not use this technology to arm non-mages is because they don't want the kind of weapons proliferation you'd get due to it, it'd be like non-magic weapons all over again.
Meta-story, the focus of the franchise is on mages using their internal power to cast spectacular attacks on their enemies. If that kind of power were available to every average joe-on-street, there'd be nothing unique about the girls, now would there?
Personally, I think 7arcs bungled when they specifically referred to Arc-en-ciel as a magic-cannon in A's. If they hadn't done that, they could have had deniability and let people think the cannon was non-magical. But even that would have only lasted until Strikers when they mentioned specifically that non-magic weapons were banned. That pins down the fact that the AeC can't be a non-magic cannon.

[JINNSK]

Originally Posted by Nya~n

Alright, given this thread's recent history, I might just start off another debate with this question(Q&A doesn't seem to be a good place to ask this question).

We know that the Mid-Childan home world(and affiliated worlds) run chiefly on magic to power it's day to day operations, completely replacing the primeval way of burning fuels, nuclear, wind, wave energy. Thing is, with such a huge network of worlds, where does this magic come from? We know that not all inhabitants are magi, so do they get enough magic to run the place? Do they have a mana generator(a la GN Drive, per chance?) or do they do it Matrix-style and plug in mages into a global energy network?

StrikerS Chronicle mentioned just a little about their energy in Mid-childa.
(IIRC StrikerS Chronicle was posted before by somebody in the image thread.Please refer it)

Originally Posted by StrikerS Chronicle Page 7:Outlook on the world of StrikerS

The explanation of the bottom

ミッドチルダ都市部(首都クラナガン)。整然と区画整理が行われ、超高層の建造物もいたるところに点在する が、植物などの自然も残され景観を保っている。
街中では時として空間ディスプレーが出現し、交通標識の役割を兼ねるほか、ニュースなどの公共性・速報性の 高い番組などが放送される。
公共の移動機関としては鉄道や自動車など見慣れたものが代表的に挙げられるが、それらの動力については地球 とは異なり、はるかに進化した燃料が使用されている。

Please translate the red line.At least to drive vehicles,some kind of fuel seemed to be used.

[Wild Goose]

I recall somewhere where someone translated that for the vehicles, they're essentially running on water; some sorta catalyst mechanism. Either that or hydrogen fuel cells.

[Kikaifan]

It probably doesn't mean much since the series has changed quite a bit since then but the core of the Garden of Time's power-generation apparatus was a little crystal thing, too. Just like every other artifact of consequence in Nanoha.

I find it kind of interesting that the Intelligent Device cores follow the general 'crystal = power source' motif but the Armed Devices don't appear to have any similar parts.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I would say it's not so much a power source, as much as the 'computer core'... so to speak. Sure, it's got a power core in there... but as an 'Intelligent' Device, what would it have that needs to be larger and more powerful than a less intelligent armed device?

The 'brain'.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

I would say it's not so much a power source, as much as the 'computer core'... so to speak. Sure, it's got a power core in there... but as an 'Intelligent' Device, what would it have that needs to be larger and more powerful than a less intelligent armed device?

The 'brain'.

But then, armed devices such as Graf Eisen don't seem far off in intelligence from a Middie "Intelligent" Device. Probably, the crystal is there in the armed devices, just wrapped in pseudomatter "metal" so you don't see it. For Graf Eisen, I suspect it to be the metal ball between the two hammerheads.

Originally Posted by StrikerS Chronicle Page 7:Outlook on the world of StrikerS

公共の移動機関としては鉄道や自動車など見慣れたものが代表的に挙げられるが、それらの動力に ついては地球 とは異なり、はるかに進化した燃料が使用されている。

Translation: Though examples of public transit and automobiles be raised, those use a different power source from Earth's - a much more advanced form of fuel.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

My preferred in-universe explaination is politics. The existence of things like the training autospheres imply that control doesn't appear to be an issue. Therefore, the reason the TSAB does not use this technology to arm non-mages is because they don't want the kind of weapons proliferation you'd get due to it, it'd be like non-magic weapons all over again.

If that's so, they won't be allowing autospheres. It won't take a whole lot of imagination (even for Middies) for someone to change the autosphere's shape into something hand-holdable and add a manual trigger. And they made tanks - albeit crummy ones.

Personally, I'll say that the current evidence shows a technical gap. Power probably isn't the issue - even if mobile power generation isn't fully up to the mark yet, they can just use cartridges to feed the guns.

The problem most probably is modulation. We know that with lots of volume available (say a ship), Midchildran magitech can at least perform simple modulations of vast amounts of generated / assembled mana (such as distort space or attack with high energy beams). At lower power levels, with large facilities, it is possible to perform some very elegant modulations - such as the ability to generate a holographic city with good fidelity on a specially created "plate".

However, the choice of regular (though supposedly with a more advanced fuel) instead of magical propulsion for cars and (apparently) helicopters, the crummy performance of the magi-tanks, the obviously limited capability of the autospheres (and the Gadget drones aren't anything to cheer about either) and the Regius and High Council's emphasis on ethically controversial Artificial Mages and human-based Combat Cyborgs strongly suggest that there is a gap with the ability of magitech to modulate magic (or similar energies) in the land/air mobile size range. Either the modulator is much more volumous or it is able to handle very low amounts of energy (say enough to make a nice poke-poke monitor).

Presumably, by using humans as base, Scarlietti was able to leverage off the existing human Linker Core related control circuitry to control his IS attacks, which look ridiculously like magic anyway...

The problem of fully artificial control at small sizes is almost certainly solvable when one looks at say the Jewel Seeds. We call them running out of control, and they clearly aren't performing to norm, but what we actually see them do actually suggests more of a very sophisticated modulation system is working than not.

Personally, I think 7arcs bungled when they specifically referred to Arc-en-ciel as a magic-cannon in A's. If they hadn't done that, they could have had deniability and let people think the cannon was non-magical. But even that would have only lasted until Strikers when they mentioned specifically that non-magic weapons were banned. That pins down the fact that the AeC can't be a non-magic cannon.

That in turn suggests it wasn't a mistake, but part of a long term plan.

[Keroko]

We also have Runessa in the SSX, who wields a gun firing physical bullets under a special license. While we don't know how the bullets are fired, this may mean that the ban on mass weaponry is not as extreme as we initially thought. It may simply mean that mass based weaponry is simply treated like higher-grade military weapons. The normal crowd isn't supposed to get them, but the army is still allowed the use them.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Keroko

We also have Runessa in the SSX, who wields a gun firing physical bullets under a special license. While we don't know how the bullets are fired, this may mean that the ban on mass weaponry is not as extreme as we initially thought. It may simply mean that mass based weaponry is simply treated like higher-grade military weapons. The normal crowd isn't supposed to get them, but the army is still allowed the use them.

I wouldn't go that far just yet. If that was the case, there'd have been a lot more talk about using mass weapons against AMF drones. Instead, all we got was one scene in the manga. That just categorically stated that mass weapons were banned. I know, given the conspiracy against them, they would be unlikely to get permission. But if it was allowable, somehow, we should have heard complaints at some point about not being able to use mass weapons against these most appropriate targets.
Right now that dialog in SSX does confirm one thing for sure, manufactured physical rounds are not banned by the Bureau, even if their use is highly regulated. For the moment, I'm willing to say they allow the use of such ammuniton as long as the weapon can only be used by a mage. So the device probably uses magic to fire the bullets.

@arkhangelsk. I wanted to reply to your response, but I can't pull it together right now. I'll type something in the morning if I can. In the meantime, it would be helpful to me if you could elaborate further on what you mean by modulate magic.

[stormturmoil]

another issue is that the demonstrated and proven methods of magical control on the small scale also raises ethical and moral quandaries that may not be easily resolved.

That is, we Know Artifical Linker cores are possible (reference Wolkenritter and Reinforce Zwei, also Agito) but in those cases, the resulting 'artefact' happens to be a fully sentient being with rights and the means to enforce them.

similarly, it's possible to enhance a non-sentient Linker core to a more useful format (eg, Familiars) but again, the subject also gains full sentience and associated rights involved.

I'm not sure where Intelligent Devices fall; our Characters certainly don't treat them as being merely equipment, though how the law addresses that may be open to interpretation.

now, part of Jails plan may have been to attempt to pursue this kind of enhancement of lesser Linker cores into a more useful level without raising these issues ( at least, that may be what the Bureau asked for; they can't really be seen to be turning sentients into puppet weapons) but it seems as though he wasn't successful, since the lower classes (the Gadget Drones) aren't terribly impressive, while the higher Classes ( Numbers and Relic Weapons) still end up full sentient, albeit with a built in remote control function that can override that.

So, it may be political again; the Bureau knows (roughly, at least) how to create a highly developed, self powered magical control system, but can't deal with the side-effects without making themselves look very bad...

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Stormturmoil

That is, we Know Artifical Linker cores are possible (reference Wolkenritter and Reinforce Zwei, also Agito)
similarly, it's possible to enhance a non-sentient Linker core to a more useful format (eg, Familiars)

I think you're misinterpeting the situation in those cases. Is it that sentience the result of a Linker Core, or is it an artificial sentience is given a Linker Core by its creator?
Also, in the creation of familiars, LCs aren't "enhanced". It appears that the mage calls forth a soul to inhabit the animal and powers it with her own magic.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If that's so, they won't be allowing autospheres. It won't take a whole lot of imagination (even for Middies) for someone to change the autosphere's shape into something hand-holdable and add a manual trigger.

Well, they need something to train their troops. As I've argued before, perhaps the Bureau brass has convinced itself that since these designs can't really hurt people, they're not actually weapons.
For all we know, people do think of that. And the ones who make such weapons are considered criminals by the Bureau.

And they made tanks - albeit crummy ones.

You just love those tanks, don't you? Despite their total non-use. Please note this, nobody makes useless equipment for laughs. Sure they got taken out by the Numbers and so were considered inferior by you. But why did the Bureau build them in the first place, just to be target practice for their enemies?
Think of possible missions for a magi-tank, then think of the magical power requirements for it, then we'll talk some more about this. If you can't think of one, maybe they weren't intended to fight in the first place?
And I still would like to know what you mean by "modulate".

[Wild Goose]

*shrug* Real world. Tasers and stun guns aren't really considered weapons and are street legal, in contrast to other firearms which need lisences and the like (varies between each country, of course).

As for the tanks: on one hand, they could be tanks that didn't work that well. On the other hand, they could be static displays. *shrugs* Almost all military bases have static displays of some sort; typically decomissioned hardware.

EDIT: Regards Runessa, like TK has said, the TSAB probably doesn't care too much how you kill people so long as you use magic to power it. That's how Graf Eisen gets its pass, despite Swallow Flier being an attack using metal balls: it's a 2-stage attack consisting of magic-coated metal balls that are fired away with the force of Vita's magic. Without her magic there's no attack.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I think you're misinterpeting the situation in those cases. Is it that sentience the result of a Linker Core, or is it an artificial sentience is given a Linker Core by its creator?

For Rein's case, apparently Hayate copied a small part of her linker core and fiddled with it some to make Rein (according to NanohaWiki, which in turn sources this from a 2006 June Megami Magazine interview). It is probable that the Wolkies' cores were originally thumped out the same way.

You just love those tanks, don't you? Despite their total non-use. Please note this, nobody makes useless equipment for laughs. Sure they got taken out by the Numbers and so were considered inferior by you. But why did the Bureau build them in the first place, just to be target practice for their enemies?
Think of possible missions for a magi-tank, then think of the magical power requirements for it, then we'll talk some more about this. If you can't think of one, maybe they weren't intended to fight in the first place?

Then what were they there for? Even if I grant the IMO rather ridiculous idea of them being a static display in front of a rather sensitive installation, they would have had a role at one time.

Actually, the "possible missions" for a magi-tank depend vitally on the performance of the overall magical complex. Obviously, they are very different if they can generate only A-equivalent than if they can generate S-equivalent.

For now, their performance suggests that they are better than wimp mages, which gives them a certain utility but they don't hold a candle to >A range human or cyborg opponents. Working down from this volumetrically, and looking at other data points, we can have a reasonable idea of the likely tactical characteristics of say a magi-rifle, which is to say not a lot - maybe D-equiv. Which is probably why we see magiships and some magitanks, but no magirifles.

And I still would like to know what you mean by "modulate".

The process of "shaping" all the magical energy into a useful form. You can also call it "control" if you want.

As of cartridges, it is obvious that small power generation clearly is possible. Which IMO leaves control issues as the major technical problem.

[Kikaifan]

Well, there is always the possibility that cartridges serve more as a catalyst for drawing out more of the mage's own power- at any rate it helps explain why they were considered a contributing factor in Nanoha's health issues. Though I suppose there could just be opportunity for feedback in the control process.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

For now, their performance suggests that they are better than wimp mages

You have to remind me where we saw this 'performance' then. Because as far as I can remember all we really could really see was a burning wreckage, which while not flattering, shows little of its performance during combat, be it good or bad.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Keroko

You have to remind me where we saw this 'performance' then. Because as far as I can remember all we really could really see was a burning wreckage, which while not flattering, shows little of its performance during combat, be it good or bad.

The fact that they had them at all, deployed on the beach, and the fact that they presented enough of a tactical threat that they were also taken out along with the mages would be the 'performance'. Or would we rather say 'infered performance'.

If they were nothing more than trucks, you might have some flipped over to get at mages in them... but empty trucks would remain untouched.

But the fact is... they HAD tanks... which are not cheap to build, even crappy ones. The tanks were deployed for combat and were taken out, which means they weren't mere decorations.
If the tanks were NOT at least marginally more powerful than the standard redshirt mage, there would be no reason to waste the money building them, and the money needed to train mages to use them when the mages could be doing the same thing themselves. And they wouldn't use tanks to get around... They'd have jeeps, or trucks for that.
And don't give me that nonsense political issues excuse either. Even politicians aren't THAT stupid... and most certainly would not go spending a bunch of money on useless and unflashy things when they could be spent on equally useless, but flashier things... like Regius' pet supercannon project. Einjarihar.

In universe, those tanks were obviously of some marginal capability over a redshirt mage to be cost effective enough to even be built in the first place. We'll never see what they can do, but we have an idea as to where they sit in the heigherarchy based on their existence, their location, and who/what it takes to stomp them.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

For Rein's case, apparently Hayate copied a small part of her linker core and fiddled with it some to make Rein

That is correct and was stated in StrikerS Sound Stage 3.

Then what were they there for?

That's for you to tell me. You're the one who keeps insisting that they're magi-tanks and that they have crappy performance. But nobody makes crappy equipment for no reason. Since you insist on them being magi-tanks, you justify their existence as magi-tanks by providing them a role to fulfill.

Even if I grant the IMO rather ridiculous idea of them being a static display in front of a rather sensitive installation, they would have had a role at one time.

Here's a thought, what if they're museum pieces from the pre-TSAB era? They might not even have used magic at all!
On another matter, tanks of any kind would have been useless against flying combat cyborgs with attacks that can cut through armor. They'd never be able to train their guns fast enough or high enough to get a bead on them, that's not what they were designed to do. Calling them "crappy" because of that is like calling the M1 Abrams MBT crappy because it cannot engage an antitank helicopter gunship in the air.

Working down from this volumetrically, and looking at other data points, we can have a reasonable idea of the likely tactical characteristics of say a magi-rifle, which is to say not a lot - maybe D-equiv. Which is probably why we see magiships and some magitanks, but no magirifles.

Stop that, we're talking about something that looks like tanks in our world. Don't change the subject to magirifles, I refuse to engage in a debate on the possible performance of presently-nonexistent magirifles. Anyway your scaling proclaimation is ridiculous. We have no information on how much volume does the magic source in the so-called magi-tank occupy, nor do we know how powerful it is. Yet you can say the source would provide "D-equiv." power when downsized to a rifle? That's speculation piled on top of speculation.

Originally Posted by kikaifan

there is always the possibility that cartridges serve more as a catalyst for drawing out more of the mage's own power

No, A's explicitly shows that cartridges are really extra bursts of magical energy.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

That's for you to tell me. You're the one who keeps insisting that they're magi-tanks and that they have crappy performance. But nobody makes crappy equipment for no reason. Since you insist on them being magi-tanks, you justify their existence as magi-tanks by providing them a role to fulfill.

People make crappy equipment generally because they are still 1) somewhat useful, and 2) technology does not allow them to build any better. For example, the PanzerKampfwagen I was pretty crappy. It got machine guns for armament, and the armor is so thin it can be penetrated by an anti-tank rifle. But it was the best they had until they can make PanzerKampfwagen IIand it was better than nothing, so it got shoved onto the stage.

Here's a thought, what if they're museum pieces from the pre-TSAB era? They might not even have used magic at all!

Why hadn't they all been towed back to a museum, then?

On another matter, tanks of any kind would have been useless against flying combat cyborgs with attacks that can cut through armor.

Tanks are designed to fight in environments that have targets that can penetrate their armor.

They'd never be able to train their guns fast enough or high enough to get a bead on them, that's not what they were designed to do. Calling them "crappy" because of that is like calling the M1 Abrams MBT crappy because it cannot engage an antitank helicopter gunship in the air.

Well, isn't that you admitting they are quite crappy in the Midchildran combat environment, since the Combat Cyborgs basically represent the likely high-threat target they will engage?

By the way, it is perfectly possible, even with mere Terran technology, to make a large-caliber, antiair gun tank, such as the Otomatic with a 120RPM capability.

Stop that, we're talking about something that looks like tanks in our world. Don't change the subject to magirifles, I refuse to engage in a debate on the possible performance of presently-nonexistent magirifles. Anyway your scaling proclaimation is ridiculous. We have no information on how much volume does the magic source in the so-called magi-tank occupy, nor do we know how powerful it is. Yet you can say the source would provide "D-equiv." power when downsized to a rifle? That's speculation piled on top of speculation.

Get real. It is a tank. Its approximate dimensions can thus roughly be imagined. Presumably the turret space is for men, and thus the generation / control systems (engine) won't be there. That leaves them with some of the forward compartment and the aft compartment for the "engine". Now, scale that down. Unless you want to argue that the engine might be a pimple in the tank, in which case I can only say that this indicates horrible volumetric efficiency in design, since it is hard to imagine that the tank's technotactical performance would not be vastly increased with a larger engine - in other words, such a tank will be against your idea that designers at least try to design something to be as useful as possible.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

People make crappy equipment generally because they are still 1) somewhat useful, and 2) technology does not allow them to build any better.

That's true, but you still haven't provided a reason for these tanks to exist. What did their builders intend them to do? If they were functional units, what threats were Reguis preparing to face when they were assigned there? I keep asking and you keep dancing away.

Why hadn't they all been towed back to a museum, then?

Maybe this facility is in the middle of an ancient battlefield. And Mid's had mechanized vehicles for longer than Earth.

Tanks are designed to fight in environments that have targets that can penetrate their armor.

Yes, but any defense can eventually be broken. Besides, that's irrelavant to our discussion on power levels.

isn't that you admitting they are quite crappy in the Midchildran combat environment, since the Combat Cyborgs basically represent the likely high-threat target they will engage?

Every equipment has a main purpose, how well it can do anything else is secondary. If those tanks were functional, perhaps they were intended to deal with heavy ground vehicles, mages aren't the only threats after all. There might have been antiair assets in the base, they just weren't in our view at the time. Once they went down, the antiarmor units would be helpless. Oh wait! The Middies couldn't possibly be smart enough to create a dedicated antiair ground vehicle, right? They're too dumb, even if they can make a mechanized ground combat vehicle. That seems to be what you keep trying to tell us.

Get real. It is a tank. Its approximate dimensions can thus roughly be imagined.
That leaves them with some of the forward compartment and the aft compartment for the "engine". Now, scale that down.

No, you get real. Without knowing the output of the magical engine, there's no way you can say "If we halve the volume, we get B-rank output. If the volume was 1/10, we get D-rank output." You're assuming output is in direct perportion to volume all the way from a vehicle-sized engine to a rifle sized one. You're also assuming that there's only one possible design for magic engines for both magi-tanks and magi-rifles and that the size-to-output ratio ramains constant at all sizes. How do we know if those are true? What if smaller things like rifles can have a different engine design that was more efficient for their size but impractical for vehicles, and what if that engine would give B-rank power instead? That's why I'm accusing you of making unwarranted speculation on top of unwarranted speculation.
And like I said, magi-rifles aren't being discussed here. Give me possible roles for magi-tanks and likely powerlevels first!

[Wild Goose]

A note to Ark: military installations do have static displays made from decomissioned hardware. Take the various cold-war SAC bases (before BRAC, anyway) and the many, many decomissioned tanks at various Cav and Armor bases.

Ark, I understand that you're from Hong Kong, which is a rather pacifistic place and such, with not much of a military presence, but surely you've heard of static displays at military bases? Many airbases and military bases that can get museum pieces have them - for instance at Butterworth AB here in Malaysia we've got a number of museum pieces as outdoor displays: old Hunters and an old Mirage, and a number of A-4s that are permanantly retired as outdoor displays.

So no, museum pieces at static displays at a military base are not inconceivable.