Claymore Chapter 91

[Sleepy Speculator]

I never really thought about the feasability of claymore hybrid offspring, but i'd guess that they would be 1/4 yoma naturally, if it were at all possible. But then the org could go and hybridise that because the body was natural and not tampered with. They wouldn't have to worry about taking a warrior out of action if the warrior was already heavily injured, and not fit for battle, say if the warrior had lost an arm or two. But then that's only if it's possible.

And looking at what Helen says out of context, makes it look like she and Deneve were upto something dirty together, Helen's even blushing...

As for S&M gotta be careful most of that is Clare's feelings on the matter, and she's been so ritually abused, that it could be a pavlovian response on the issue.

[Sordes Pilosus]

Pointing out a few minor details. Im sure you could read it but "Much LIKE pleasure" and regarding Pricilla, if you actualy READ my post you will notice i mentioned the pleasure part "AFTER" the awakening. And you say Cyclone that im clueless ? HAH, all my theories have solid grounds in the manga. And i do feel the need to stress out an other point people really forget all the time. Claymore is a Scanlated/Translated manga. Word meanings change all the time and is rarly 100% accuratly translated. To simplefy the process shown in the manga shows the awakening process to be very simular to rape, one can feel good and hate it and feel sick at the same time. But would one call that pleasure ? no. Pleasure is a state of enjoyment, the awakening process does not give that. And while ecstacy might be a suitable word, its important to remember "What are the phrase being told us here" and not look purly on the words written and translated by someone other then the original writer, the meanings may be as close as 95% accurate. But its just like how when translating from Japanease to English the general honorifics often disapear and with that the correct way a sentance is said gets lost.

Adrenaline produces a simular affect to pleasure. This ties very accuratly in the way awakening has been presented. When your scared, exited, angry adrenaline produces very visable changes in a human. Males tend to get very agressive and angry, females on edge but more awaiting (depending on situation ofcourse). But generaly speaking Females are better at handling adrenaline then males do. Is it related to amount of adrenaline produced ? Not sure. But bloody hell LOOK into the manga. Helen is the type you can very easily see would enjoy riverrafting, rollercoaster's and the like. She very much fits the profile. Its proven fact in the manga that Males and Females as Claymore's produced 2 very different results. So why unless its it that Helen produced simular result ? Looking at Adrenaline as the baseline of the theory would show how. So calling me clueless based on this ? Hah, clueless indeed, id rather not hear that from people that dont seam to actualy pay attension to the issue of awakening at all thank you.




Some more direct manga proff:

Case 1: Awakening of Pricilla
Pay close attension to her as she awakens. Does it look like Pricilla is enjoying herself? Thruth is she has lost herself and control of her youki quite clearly in the beginning there, she is angry battle ready. Which when one is in that type of situation have high adrenaline levels in their systems. When she realises she is over her limit she enters the shock phase, it starts to hurt her, has she felt pleasure to this point ? In the direct meaning of pleasure no, ecstacy from the adrenaline rush ? likly. But Adrenaline does only produce the feeling of ecstacy when your in a "good mood" if you realise whats happening to you, say awakening or about to be slashed to pieces etc, it does not produce a good feeling. It makes you very alart etc yes, but no it does not feel good being in that kind of situation (Note: Those that experience the situation countless times over and over again may becomme battle lovers and find ecstacy int he situation.) However Note: AFTER Pricilla awakened she found herself in a high degree of pleasure. But here the pleasure comes as a result of having awakened, not the awakening itself.

Case 2:
Clare in Labona, Clare shows no pleasure in her battle against the Big Youma, the urge to awaken yes, but pleasure ? no.

Case 3:
Katea, does it look like she finds pleasure in her awakening ? It is the case where Pain is the main cause, the told scenario when youki usage when so mentaly strained that one aint able to control the flow of youki in their bodies when strained and heavily injured resulting in overusage and as a result awakening. So it is posible that Katea comes the closest to the Pleasure part, but considering in the manner she was forced to awaken, i doubt she very much enjoyed it.

Case 4:
Clare in her Queens of Blade form in Pieta, here is an other aspect of awakening shown as Clare constantly pushes it, she wants more power and speed. Is it pleasure here ? Very alike it, but as soon as the battle ended she aint in a pleasurable state. Which would have been there if pleasure itself as the awakening drive. No, Adrenaline fits ALOT better to whats actualy happending to her, her battle fever wears off and she asks to die, had she felt really good she would have continued. Like us men usualy do when we are angry etc, we usualy cant help but throw a punch.



It is however to state shown clearly in 2 Cases of Pricilla and Agetha that being awakened causes great pleasure to the one who experienced the actual awakening. But we are discussing the Awakening PROCESS here. It itself works like Adrenaline does. Calling that theory stupid means im calling you blind, cause you cant have read the manga and then look at what ive written here and say it does not work in a very very simular way and at same time say that the awakening process (very atlest in the case of the Females) bringing pleasure as part of the process. While it does fit perfectly with Adrenline and explain how Anger, Fear, Battle etc can cause easier awakening. Clueless indeed.

[Arturro]

As Vinak pointed already pleasure don't cause warriors to awaken. When they awaken they feel pleasure. BTW it could be another reason why Org doesn't like long living warriors. Men are most sexsually active and easili aroused when they are 15-25 years old. So Org creating male warriors created a bunch of sexsually frustrated young men for whom only way to satisfy their desires was to release yoki, to awaken. On the other hand women are most sexsually active when they are 25-35 years old. On other topic there was a speculation, that most warriors are commisioned to active duty when they are 15-18 years old, and an average warrior dies after 13 years od duty. Allowing warriors to live past their 30 birthday is risky not only cause they could learn to much about Org, but also cause of high risk of awakening.

As for pregnancy. I've interpretated Helens words about Raki not beeing Clare child just like Cyclone did. Helen considered Clare having a child as something unprobable but not impossible. I suppose they don't get pregnant cause of alc of potential fathers. Also for most hybrids fertility rate is very low. I don't know if that apply to claymoreverse.

I always liked idea that Miata is a child of Claymore.

[hell88]

Hmmmm, by looking at everyone's posts after mine. I'm not sure anyone understood what I was saying.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I'd personally say the people who are clueless are those who don't base their opinions from the manga and just go on making up their own theories on stuff like adrenaline (not mentioning any names of course...).

There are several quotes in the manga tying the process of awakening to pleasure. There has not been a single one about adrenaline.

chapter 24, Priscilla:
"It feels incredible"

chapter 27, Miria:
"In a sense, awakening is much like pleasure. When a male releases his youma power, he can't suppress the urge to awaken"

chapter 29, Clare herself describes it as:
"I felt a rush of suffering and ecstasy."

chapter 29, Helen:
"I got carried away and lost control. The impulse to awaken was too strong, just like it was for the males."

chapter 37, Ophelia:
"What is this? This pleasant feeling... The pain I had until yesterday seems like a dream. Now it feels... so good..."

and finally by Deneve in chapter 55:
"There is no doubt the feeling of approaching the limit is terrifying. The desire for power, the craving for blood... combined with lust boiling over throughout your entire body. An instant in which you feel the black knot of ugly emotions... hidden deep inside you."

--

So, it seems quite clear that awakening is more and S&M experience, than any adrenaline rush. Please, in the future, before you assume we are idiots, realize your own potential fallibility, double check your facts, and give us some credit for being some serious Claymore geeks who can quote chapter and verse - so please "get that fact straight".

Give it up! The sad thing is that i had the same discussion with the same user a few month ago and he told me that i am clueless too I told him the same things like you did and with cites and quotes
In a few month we will discuss this topic again and so on...

About the issue that sex could be somehow connected to awakening or that a claymore who has sex will somehow awaken we perhaps should ask helen

@sordes_pilossus
This is not biology this is a manga. And if the mangaka through figures like miria in the manga says that it is pleasure/ecstasy connected with pain then so be it.
Perhaps you're right that in the real world adrenaline is connected to ecstasy and pleasure but believe me i know what an adrenaline rush is for example when i had trained several month over 120km per week in running and i stood on the start of the competition i feel lots of adrenaline but no sexual pleasure. In fact the adrenaline rush is so strong that i could run the first kilometer under three minutes and not even feel pain so i have to hold back myself to not ruin my race. Therefore i think personally that awakening is probably a complex mixture of pain, adrenaline sexual pleasure and arousal.

[Vinak]

Originally Posted by hell88

Hmmmm, by looking at everyone's posts after mine. I'm not sure anyone understood what I was saying.

I have a terrible habit of skimming...

Spoiler for .:

which is the most probable cause of a certain misunderstanding that took place a while ago.

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

Perhaps you're right that in the real world adrenaline is connected to ecstasy and pleasure but believe me i know what an adrenaline rush is for example when i had trained several month over 120km per week in running and i stood on the start of the competition i feel lots of adrenaline but no sexual pleasure. In fact the adrenaline rush is so strong that i could run the first kilometer under three minutes and not even feel pain so i have to hold back myself to not ruin my race.

I wish I had that problem... I'm more of a short distance sprinter which I find to be very annoying.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Vinak

I have a terrible habit of skimming...

Spoiler for .:

which is the most probable cause of a certain misunderstanding that took place a while ago.

I wish I had that problem... I'm more of a short distance sprinter which I find to be very annoying.

Then you are like gimli

[Vinak]

ah haha.


Gimli: Keep breathing. That's the key. Breathe.

[Arturro]

Originally Posted by hell88

Everything the org does is mutilation.

No, they are trying to save lives of their citizens. Their actions are ethical (Not moral, but ethical. Ethic and morality are two different things, just look simmilar, same as justice and law).

I don't know what else to say, I have said why many times the org does it to their warriors. They simply don't want any of the girls getting pregnant and having a child because then that would be an unknown hybrid to them that could become a problem when it grows older, such as awakening.

Org need as many experiments as possible. More experitments, bigger chances for succes. An offspring of human/yoma hybrid must be interesting for them.

I don't think they cut the organ, how else would they know what pleasure feels like when they start to awaken? Tying their tubes is the simplest way of doing it, but yeah they might just remove the whole organ that will eventually produce the eggs later on when they start to mature.

To put it bluntly - warriors just need to have their clitoris intact. Chances for warrior to be pregnant are really low. It's hard for them to find a father, warriors do not interact with human population. Probably cause of hybridisation their fertility rate is also low. And if any became pregnant - org always coud send pregnant warrior for suicide mission.

[Vinak]

The Org clearly doesn't care about it's human population or the atrocities that took place in the south would never have happened. Nor would they have allowed the North to be completely destroyed. they could have sent more soldiers.

Lets not forget that little thing about them making Yoma.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Sordes Pilosus

Pointing out a few minor details. Im sure you could read it but "Much LIKE pleasure" and regarding Pricilla, if you actualy READ my post you will notice i mentioned the pleasure part "AFTER" the awakening. And you say Cyclone that im clueless ? HAH, all my theories have solid grounds in the manga. And i do feel the need to stress out an other point people really forget all the time. Claymore is a Scanlated/Translated manga. Word meanings change all the time and is rarly 100% accuratly translated. To simplefy the process shown in the manga shows the awakening process to be very simular to rape, one can feel good and hate it and feel sick at the same time. But would one call that pleasure ? no. Pleasure is a state of enjoyment, the awakening process does not give that. And while ecstacy might be a suitable word, its important to remember "What are the phrase being told us here" and not look purly on the words written and translated by someone other then the original writer, the meanings may be as close as 95% accurate. But its just like how when translating from Japanease to English the general honorifics often disapear and with that the correct way a sentance is said gets lost.

Adrenaline produces a simular affect to pleasure. This ties very accuratly in the way awakening has been presented. When your scared, exited, angry adrenaline produces very visable changes in a human. Males tend to get very agressive and angry, females on edge but more awaiting (depending on situation ofcourse). But generaly speaking Females are better at handling adrenaline then males do. Is it related to amount of adrenaline produced ? Not sure. But bloody hell LOOK into the manga. Helen is the type you can very easily see would enjoy riverrafting, rollercoaster's and the like. She very much fits the profile. Its proven fact in the manga that Males and Females as Claymore's produced 2 very different results. So why unless its it that Helen produced simular result ? Looking at Adrenaline as the baseline of the theory would show how. So calling me clueless based on this ? Hah, clueless indeed, id rather not hear that from people that dont seam to actualy pay attension to the issue of awakening at all thank you.

You will note that I mentioned no names in my post, but my kudos to you for correctly identifying yourself. What fascinates me, is how much offense you seem to take at someone throwing your exact words directly back at you. Do you expect us not to be equally offended by those very same words in your posts? You were the one who was quite rude, not me.

Back to the subject, you are completely ignoring the 2 most important quotes - Clare's and Deneve's:

chapter 29, Clare:
"I felt a rush of suffering and ecstasy."

Deneve in chapter 55:
"There is no doubt the feeling of approaching the limit is terrifying. The desire for power, the craving for blood... combined with lust boiling over throughout your entire body. An instant in which you feel the black knot of ugly emotions... hidden deep inside you."

Ecstasy and lust are feelings that are sexual in nature, not just adrenaline based. Neither Clare nor Deneve have awakened, all they know about is the process of awakening.

Now, as for giving me a lesson in japanese, frankly, I find that quite humorous. I have read the entire manga through in japanese (and many times in english), and I do the occasional translation for it. Now, if you would like, I can post the original japanese and you can re-translate it for us.

Some more direct manga proff:

Case 1: Awakening of Pricilla
Pay close attension to her as she awakens. Does it look like Pricilla is enjoying herself? Thruth is she has lost herself and control of her youki quite clearly in the beginning there, she is angry battle ready. Which when one is in that type of situation have high adrenaline levels in their systems. When she realises she is over her limit she enters the shock phase, it starts to hurt her, has she felt pleasure to this point ? In the direct meaning of pleasure no, ecstacy from the adrenaline rush ? likly. But Adrenaline does only produce the feeling of ecstacy when your in a "good mood" if you realise whats happening to you, say awakening or about to be slashed to pieces etc, it does not produce a good feeling. It makes you very alart etc yes, but no it does not feel good being in that kind of situation (Note: Those that experience the situation countless times over and over again may becomme battle lovers and find ecstacy int he situation.) However Note: AFTER Pricilla awakened she found herself in a high degree of pleasure. But here the pleasure comes as a result of having awakened, not the awakening itself.

Case 2:
Clare in Labona, Clare shows no pleasure in her battle against the Big Youma, the urge to awaken yes, but pleasure ? no.

Case 3:
Katea, does it look like she finds pleasure in her awakening ? It is the case where Pain is the main cause, the told scenario when youki usage when so mentaly strained that one aint able to control the flow of youki in their bodies when strained and heavily injured resulting in overusage and as a result awakening. So it is posible that Katea comes the closest to the Pleasure part, but considering in the manner she was forced to awaken, i doubt she very much enjoyed it.

Case 4:
Clare in her Queens of Blade form in Pieta, here is an other aspect of awakening shown as Clare constantly pushes it, she wants more power and speed. Is it pleasure here ? Very alike it, but as soon as the battle ended she aint in a pleasurable state. Which would have been there if pleasure itself as the awakening drive. No, Adrenaline fits ALOT better to whats actualy happending to her, her battle fever wears off and she asks to die, had she felt really good she would have continued. Like us men usualy do when we are angry etc, we usualy cant help but throw a punch.



It is however to state shown clearly in 2 Cases of Pricilla and Agetha that being awakened causes great pleasure to the one who experienced the actual awakening. But we are discussing the Awakening PROCESS here. It itself works like Adrenaline does. Calling that theory stupid means im calling you blind, cause you cant have read the manga and then look at what ive written here and say it does not work in a very very simular way and at same time say that the awakening process (very atlest in the case of the Females) bringing pleasure as part of the process. While it does fit perfectly with Adrenline and explain how Anger, Fear, Battle etc can cause easier awakening. Clueless indeed.

I'm afraid your mistake comes from the fact you seem to believe that pain and pleasure is mutally exclusive. If you're above 18, you might want to google sadomasochism (aka S&M [safe search off if above 18]) and contemplate just why anyone would want to be whipped, suffocated, or whatever else they like to do to each other (I confess I'm not exactly an expert in it). (remember - both parties are willing participants)

No one said the process of awakening is not painful. But then again, since you mentioned case 2, it's obvious you didn't read my post where I quoted Clare who described that very same incident for us as "suffering and ecstasy", so I'm not too hopeful that you'll read and understand this either...

As for calling your theory stupid - I didn't do any such thing, but again, you correctly guessed what I was thinking. Bravo!

[Ryuken]

Well you guys know about the feel good chemical. It is called dopamine and is released in all proportions depending on the act of the body. Just like a heroine hit, normally a person would not have that part of the brain active but when heroine hit is induced the part becomes very active indeed. For example when someone scratches it is released and you sort of want to keep on scratching and not stop. You do it until you break your skin so much that you would feel pain. Just like during (I dear not say it but) sex, you feel it a lot. A lot to do with pleasure, ecstasy, climaxing and fantasy.

[Defiled one]

Originally Posted by Vinak

The Org clearly doesn't care about it's human population or the atrocities that took place in the south would never have happened. Nor would they have allowed the North to be completely destroyed. they could have sent more soldiers.

Lets not forget that little thing about them making Yoma.

It was an accident? Without proper testing, and fully considering the war, they had to. You guys talk about the Org without realizing their "Titanic" foes. All Claymores, Awakened and Abyssal are products of an experiment to perfect the weapon against something very much worse than all of them combined.

Those "Dragons" along with their Legions "whom we know very little about them" are dangerous and they are aware "Rubel being a spie and all"

Rubel doesn`t age, he has no interest in claymores, finds Clare cute, works for the other side and appears to know everything and I mean "everything" the Org does. Also, he never gets surprised by their discoveries maybe Rubel is the author, Yagi himself?

[Vinak]

accident? so they make more to replace the ones that die? I don't think so.

how far are you willing to go before you, yourself become the evil ones? they clearly have zero ethics when it comes to their experimentations and simply cause more suffering to fight a war that has already concluded.
they create yoma that feed on humans and then charge outrageous prices on it's population to have them killed off. It's extortion at its finest.

[irvinethearcher]

Rubel is a not to underestimating foe. Like the joker in dark knight he is the agent of chaos. We don't even know if he is a human being or has some kind of superstrength himself. Probably both sides are evil(war is hell) and they simply want to win at all costs.

[Defiled one]

Who needs ethics during war? Pfft...The results justify the means.

Maybe the first yoma didn`t turned out quite what they wanted, but that doesn`t mean he stopped being usefull.

[Vinak]

well when you are trying to argue that the organization is the lesser of two evils, then ethics are pretty important imo.

so far we don't know what has happened on the mainland. are they so bad to justify the near genocidal nature of the organization? who knows?

[Defiled one]

No, the Org is not genocidal as far as I know. Evil, Eugenic and Secretive is what makes the Org, well...the Org.

In War, both sides are villanized. Only the winner stands to be the good guy because he, won.

[Sleepy Speculator]

@Arturro

Hooray someone else recognises the morality/ethicality divide.

The org for all intents and purposes despite being entirely dodgy, may be an example of 'well intentioned knight templar/extremists' who really *are* doing what's best for the human population, as a whole. The quote that i find most helpful is a Rubul one, and bare in mind that although Rubul is a confirmed spy, he has taken v.little action to eradicate Clare, who is on the books the exact type of warrior the org has struggled for 100 years to create.

(with regards to Alicia and Beth in conversation with Galatea)
Rubul - "All of this...is only done so the organisation can keep protecting humans from yoma"

If it were just a matter of yoma extermination then trying to create a controllable Ab would be superflous to requirements, as the warriors are deliberately pushed to the brink in eradicating the yoma they themselves apparently create.

From Miria's perspective we know that the org is 'desperate' to create a weapon to fight the dragonkin? and the swords themselves reflect weaponry required for this battle. So the claymore (sword and hybrid) are pre-requisites for fighting this battle, that can not be fought by regular rank and file soldiers. (In fact deploying soldiers with armor and swords would be a waste if they only awaken, this indicates regular hybrids are fighting and dying in droves too)

The willingness to deploy suicidal awakened soldiers, that decimate their own armies on occasion, speaks volumes. Not only is humanity losing, but it is losing vast numbers. I can't remember the ratio, but every soldier in the field has a larger number of civilians supporting them. To willingly use so many soldiers implies that the civilian population is also fairly active in supporting the massive number of soldiers. And this is especially problematic if a war is prolonged over several years let alone 100.

Even in real life the 100 years war in France reduced through various means the population by two thirds...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War

So if a vast human population numbering welll into the millions was being decimated, it's not surprising that it could be viewed as ethical to sacrifice the population of a smaller island which could barely scrape together for argumant sake one million people, in an experiment to create a weapon that could protect a population of much larger magnitude.

The real issue though is that whilst Immoral, it may be ethical. After all the end result is a net saving in lives, despite how distasteful the means.

[iLney]

If we nuke Africa, the world's poverty would be halved.