Macross Frontier - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Tak]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

So what exactly do they hope to achieve then by running away? Frontier is on its last legs and will inevitably fall to a Vajra attack so fighting against Frontier will deplete it of even more resources and make it vulnerable to attack unless they are waiting for Leon to make a mistake.

There is certainly that aspect, waiting for Leon to be stupid. But at the same time, staying is pretty much equal to a purge for the SMS crew. In fact, Leon hoped that they leave, so he can solidify his power without further interruptions. So if I were one of them, I would see no other choice than to leave temporarily.

Yes, further Vajra incursions may be a problem, but what good are you if... you are dead?

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, SMS fought against their former allies, but if you notice, there were no casualties during their brief engagement.

And we are sure of this because...? All we know is that Alto and Luca weren't killed. Were they the only pilots in the engagement? I don't think so (and distinctly remember lots of fighters returning to the Quarter afterwards). How are we sure no one else died?

Originally Posted by Tak

There is certainly that aspect, waiting for Leon to be stupid. But at the same time, staying is pretty much equal to a purge for the SMS crew. In fact, Leon hoped that they leave, so he can solidify his power without further interruptions. So if I were one of them, I would see no other choice than to leave temporarily.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then and see how the series develops this.

Yes, further Vajra incursions may be a problem, but what good are you if... you are dead?

The same could be said about their loved ones - I mean, anyone but Canaria even has a family, tho?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Tak

There is certainly that aspect, waiting for Leon to be stupid. But at the same time, staying is pretty much equal to a purge for the SMS crew. In fact, Leon hoped that they leave, so he can solidify his power without further interruptions. So if I were one of them, I would see no other choice than to leave temporarily.

Yes, further Vajra incursions may be a problem, but what good are you if... you are dead?

- Tak

Was it his intentions to purge the SMS crew? I was under the impression he was bringing them into the military much like what Luca, Alto, and Klan (who also stayed behind) have done.

The only people he has a beef with is Cathy and Ozuma though I question how Leon was able to convince Bliler to disband his military group.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I don't. First of all, what kind of evidence was that, which could be destroyed and they didn't have a single backup? Second of all, how can they just swoop in, when Leon makes a mistake? Third of all, they fought their old allies for real, no theatrics, there.

So, no, I'm not digging SMS part in this, after the last episode...

My biggest problem is how hundreds of people are all on board with this. Even if they don't like the idea of working directly for the government, they're essentionally committing treason, more than a few are probably abandoning their families, and they're probably not even getting paid to do what they're doing.

Even if they were all told that Leon killed the previous President, they have no reason to believe it beyond presumably Ozma's word, and even if they do believe it, they're apparently not in a position to really do anything about it. They have everything to lose by doing what they're doing, and at this point they only seem to be acting out of spite with no direction.

7/10ths is simply too many people to be considered realistic.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And we are sure of this because...? All we know is that Alto and Luca weren't killed. Were they the only pilots in the engagement? I don't think so (and distinctly remember lots of fighters returning to the Quarter afterwards). How are we sure no one else died?

The other pilots in the squadron most likely died or had to eject! they are the same as the red uniform crew member on the landing party from star trek!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And we are sure of this because...? All we know is that Alto and Luca weren't killed. Were they the only pilots in the engagement? I don't think so (and distinctly remember lots of fighters returning to the Quarter afterwards). How are we sure no one else died?

Aside from the fact that we were not shown any deaths during that brief engagement, it was unnecessary to kill. Ozma even went as far as to avoid killing Leon's guards. At best, the SMS probably just disabled pursuing fighters. Besides, Leon was being cheap, sending less than half-dozen fighters to pursuit the Quarter.

Then again, remember, this was part of Leon's plan, and he just wanted them to get the hell out of his way. Taking the SMS down would be a terrible political price to pay. Thus why the lukewarm pursuit.

- Tak

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

My biggest problem is how hundreds of people are all on board with this. Even if they don't like the idea of working directly for the government, they're essentionally committing treason, more than a few are probably abandoning their families, and they're probably not even getting paid to do what they're doing.

Even if they were all told that Leon killed the previous President, they have no reason to believe it beyond presumably Ozma's word, and even if they do believe it, they're apparently not in a position to really do anything about it. They have everything to lose by doing what they're doing, and at this point they only seem to be acting out of spite with no direction.

7/10ths is simply too many people to be considered realistic.

remember that most of the people in SMS are ex-military and people that have known Ozma for a long time thus why they trust him! it is realistic to say that new people like Alto and luca didn't join

[Tak]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Was it his intentions to purge the SMS crew? I was under the impression he was bringing them into the military much like what Luca, Alto, and Klan (who also stayed behind) have done.

Luca might have a political agenda, thus why he stayed (and perhaps for Nanase too). Alto and Klan on the other hand, stayed for sentimental and personal reasons. Alto had Sheryl, and Klan did not want to leave Mike, even though the latter died.

Remember when he heard of the news, he was not surprised at all. His aide told him that "as expected, they have departed", meaning the Quarter fell into Leon's plan. Leon has a beef with Ozma and Cathy, but the crew of the SMS, who found out Leon had assassinate the president, probably would not be too enthusiastic in joining the military.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

Aside from the fact that we were not shown any deaths during that brief engagement, it was unnecessary to kill. Ozma even went as far as to avoid killing Leon's guards. At best, the SMS probably just disabled pursuing fighters. Besides, Leon was being cheap, sending less than half-dozen fighters to pursuit the Quarter.

Ozma didn't avoid killing the guards, he made an informed decision to not waste time dawdling and get the hell out of dodge, so as not to get killed (and harm Cathy, as well). That was in character. Shooting down former friendly craft wasn't, really. It was just a very bratty thing, but like he said himself, he is not an adult, but a man... and he behaved like a little spoiled child, there.
So, no, I don't think they just disabled the other fighters. As you said, they didn't overly state that no one died, either.
If there's one thing we can be sure about this series is that they're not really showing us everything, leaving a lot to be assumed by different lenses of perception.

Then again, remember, this was part of Leon's plan, and he just wanted them to get the hell out of his way. Taking the SMS down would be a terrible political price to pay. Thus why the lukewarm pursuit.

And, just because it was part of his plan, it's excusable? The guy probably has twenty different scenarios played out for breakfast, let alone these kinds of things.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And, just because it was part of his plan, it's excusable? The guy probably has twenty different scenarios played out for breakfast, let alone these kinds of things.

Ya know, I don't care if some of NUNS pilots died during the pursuit. It does not matter to me, nor does it change the fact that:

1. The pursuit itself is intentionally half-assed.
2. It was within Leon's plan to solidify his positions.
3. The SMS really had no better choice. After all, they all know by now that the president was assassinated.
4. This is basically a gamble for the SMS.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

Ya know, I don't care if some of NUNS pilots died during the pursuit.

You know, that's really cold...

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by golthin

remember that most of the people in SMS are ex-military and people that have known Ozma for a long time thus why they trust him! it is realistic to say that new people like Alto and luca didn't join

Hence the awesome company parties.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You know, that's really cold...

Hey, what did you expect the SmS crews to do? Shoot them with paintballs?

- Tak

[Izayoi]

Story is getting more and more boring, talks about how Alto flirts with Sheryl and surprise us with how Sheryl still hasn't cut her wrist yet(?). Luca is depressed over his yet-to-be girlfriend. All that really happened is just SmS crew turn to piracy(hooray), and Sheryl has same ability as Ranka; which we saw coming from mile away. The only thing that really keep me watching is the good soundtrack, and adventure of Ranka Lee. Personal opinion here, keep your disagreement out of it. Oh, and if you blow on it, it produces a lullaby.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by golthin

remember that most of the people in SMS are ex-military and people that have known Ozma for a long time thus why they trust him! it is realistic to say that new people like Alto and luca didn't join

Alto I can believe, since his new to SMS. I'm a bit apprehensive about Luca though, since IIRC was'nt he in SMS longer than Alto?

Originally Posted by Tak

Hey, what did you expect the SmS crews to do? Shoot them with paintballs?

- Tak

I'm more concerned about the ramifications though when those SMS pirates returned and rescued Frontier. IF indeed some of those pilots that were flying with Luca and Alto were killed I would really feel uncomfortable in the shoes of an SMS crewmember who meet the family of one of those killed.

[Wesley84]

If they want to depose Leon, they'll need Grace's severed head either as real evidence, or a bluff.

[LordPhat]

Originally Posted by Tak

Ya know, I don't care if some of NUNS pilots died during the pursuit. It does not matter to me, nor does it change the fact that:

1. The pursuit itself is intentionally half-assed.
2. It was within Leon's plan to solidify his positions.
3. The SMS really had no better choice. After all, they all know by now that the president was assassinated.
4. This is basically a gamble for the SMS.

- Tak

Yep I agree completely. However, Leon's next move is going to have to be quick bold since he (and Frontier) will run out of time in 3 months and his trump card, Sheryl, is seemingly going to be dead soon. No time to just float around and fiddle while Frontier burns. Leon may THINK he eliminated Grace. I assume the new (and sexy in spandex) Grace is another clone.

Likely whatever he and Grace have been planning, he feels he no longer needs her nor Brera to carry it through now he has Sheryl. Given SMS have neither Sheryl nor Ranka perhaps he hopes they are committing suicide by deserting and will be killed by the Vajra. Maybe he hopes they will soften them up for him and he can then fold his forces in with Sheryl for a death blow.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And we are sure of this because...? All we know is that Alto and Luca weren't killed. Were they the only pilots in the engagement? I don't think so (and distinctly remember lots of fighters returning to the Quarter afterwards). How are we sure no one else died?

Nor does it mean that NUNS pilots had to die in that little fight either. But a little bit of common sense would at least make you think that killing NUNS pilots at least would be pointless, no? SMS knows that they're leaving Frontier on it's last legs, killing a few pilots isn't good for the families and friends they're all leaving behind.

Besides, nobody really cares about generic NUNS pilots anyway, you know, like how the Guantanamo carriers and their probable compliment of VF-171's apparently did jack in episode 7 too and SMS being the super soldiers they are, did everything.

[Wesley84]

There's no real point in arguing if the SMS wouldn't have been able to avoid killing the NUNs is there?

[Tabris]

None at all, I was trying to get to that, I think...it's too early in the morning.