Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Scarletknive]

lol i just watched episode 10...
Kriemhild Gretchen=Einst Regisseur of Madoka Magica???

[anselfir]

this show is god tier

[kitten320]

Wow, Homura's life happened to be more dramatic than I expected... To go through the same pain of lose over and over, she sure is a string person. My respect for her had risen 10 times.

It must be hard to act cold towards someone you care the most about.

2 more episodes to go for me, hope Madoka will remember her.

[Snork]

2 more episodes to go for me, hope Madoka will remember her.

Well, umph-sdfgokpdgh (stuffs his hand in the mouth)... whew, spoiling the ending is a stronger tempation than I thought. (@kitten320) um, never mind.

[kitten320]

Don't worry, I already finished the series, right after I posted here

[totoum]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Don't worry, I already finished the series, right after I posted here

There should be a rule that says you have to wait 6 weeks between episodes 10 and 11-12 like all the people that watched it while it was airing.

[kitten320]

^Lol, true. Would have more time to speculate and guess like you guys did.

Though once you watch it in one go, show is not as predictable as it seemed in soma places. A lot of waiting time does ruin the impression

[Kaioshin Sama]

Okay unfortunately I have to say this and it's probably going to get me in a lot of hot water (especially considering how popular this episode apparently was with the majority), but the cynical side of me really doesn't like Akemi Homura's backstory of essentially being a submissive moeblob to the point that makes Madoka look assertive (in fact Madoka is basically sempai in the original backstory). That same cynical side of me also feels that her backstory was made in such a way because they knew Japan would respond to a cutesy moeblob version of Homura with pigtails and glasses as a sort of triple whammy.

Sorry, but I felt the exact same way about Alt. Yuki in the Haruhi movie and it's not something I can easily make go away. I also find it pretty far fetched that her personality could change so much because of her situation of being a time traveller because my psyche class taught me that once a person reaches a certain mental age their personalites are more or less set for life and it's very rare to see someone completely invert personalites save for some form of dementia developing which I severely doubt Akemi is suffering from. However the progressive side of me is willingly to very grudgingly accept it because it can sort of work as part of the plot in a sort of post-traumatic stress disorder bringing on dementia manner (even though from our perspective we only see her go through a few loops before achieveing instant badass status from total weak-willed maiden status), but this shows just barely hanging on on this one.

Personally though I think this works far better if original Akemi has even a shred of what we see in her current personality on display in this episode instead of being a polar opposite version. Sadly though this ends up making Kyoko and Sayaka's character changes come across as positively logical and easy to accept by comparison. Granted last episode helped huge for my opinion of Kyoko and Sakura's character arcs, so maybe down the line this backstory will be easier to accept.

Anyway, quite possibly my least favorite plot twist aside, it was interesting and quite a pleasant surprise to see Madoka as a magical girl this episode even if she didn't get to do all that much other than get killed by the Walpurgis Night and then apparently defeat it in one hit the fourth or so time around before turning into a monster witch that will lay waste to Earth. She too seems a lot more brave and confident than her current personality as well. Probably Akemi's eventual influence in trying to scare her off the path of becoming a magical girl and her meeting Madoka before Mami did in the later timelines.

So yeah the strong parts of the episode for me were the animation, getting to see all the girls again briefly, and the scene with Akemi promising to Madoka that she won't let her get tricked into becoming a magical girl anymore ,which was powerful and important enough to deserve the super-charged emotional current running through it (can't always say the same for all scenes, but this show is definitely way more hit than miss in this regard at least and this is an area where many shows falter for me). In the end again it's yet another serviceable explanation of a characters back story and why they are the way they are...even if one that comes off of a bit like a fan fiction/wish fulfillment fantasy version of how it all happened. I really hope I don't have to grudingly accept any aspects of the finale though because this is kind of becoming a negative trend of late for me and this show.

Can't help but feel the shows short length has just caught up with it here and spoiled the trend of really good episodes that had been developing. I know there was quite some time between this episode and the final two, so I really hope they used that time well to come up with a good finale.

[Arabesque]

Well ... I'm going to disagree with you (despite not having studied psyche) since I thought that this was a good episode that helped shed some light on Homura and her approach throughout the series to the rest of the cast and her aims ... but I suppose it has to do somewhat with her base personality being a ''submissive moeblob'' being a major nono with you, while I don't think a lot minded her being more innocent before she got into this situation and eventually developed into a more cynical persona.

To me, it made sense that eventually Homura would develop into this sort of personality after what she had seen and the countless times she had to repeat the same cycle over and over, though I'd agree that yes, it probably would have helped if she had went through this change gradually over more cycles, but after seeing Madoka save her and the promise she made to her, I sallowed that explanation for the change since it struck me as a powerful event that triggered a life changing decision.

And yes the animation was pretty good, which was a given since SHAFT didn't actually animate this episode lol

As for the length ... I honestly think that this story is well crafted for a 12 episode run, and Gen had managed to make the story fit in there comfortably. If there was any shortcomings in the story department, then it has more to do with Gen's ability to balance things than the show being too short (since I think this was planned from the start to be a one cour show, with enough content for that time period)

[Triple_R]

Very interesting thoughts, as always, Kaioshin.

While I did like this episode more than you did, I also wasn't as blown away by it as most were.

Personally, I think that five things contributed to this episode being extremely well-received by the vast majority of viewers:

1. SHAFT and Gen themselves hyped up this episode just a few days before its airing, probably helping to get people psyched up for it. This is something you would have had to witness while watching the anime "live" in order to fully appreciate it, of course.

2. SHAFT and Gen did an extremely good job in making Homura a mysterious "Dark Magical Girl", and so fans were eager to finally see the curtain pulled back on that mystery, and this episode certainly did it in grand, theatrical fashion.

3. Finally getting to see Madoka as a Puella Magi was also very rewarding for many viewers (including myself), and a real treat. Much like the "Homura mystery reveal", the anticipation for this was built up perfectly.

4. This anime was a time-loop episode handled right, almost the total opposite approach of Haruhi's Endless Eight.

5. Even when you tear all of the above away, it was still a pretty solid episode at least.

So I can see why people were blown away by this episode.


You do make an intriguing point on Homura's character development through out this episode, though. I've also studied Psychology, and I have to agree with you that Homura's character development is a bit of a stretch... unless you believe that she's wearing "masks", so to speak. And that's precisely what I think the case is.

I think that the sharp-tongued severe-sounding Homura we've seen in episodes 1 through 9 is at least partly a mask, a strong front that Homura puts up to keep her feelings for Madoka bottled up inside in order to complete her mission. We saw in Episode 8 what happens when Homura finds it impossible to maintain the mask.

I do think that Homura genuinely became more confident, and a bit grittier personality-wise, over the timeloops, but not quite to the extremes that her Episode 1 self would have you believe. Probably nothing beyond the realm of plausibility, in other words.

Also keep in mind that Homura is a teenage girl, and people at that age are often impressionable, and more adaptable, then older adults who are more or less set in their ways.

[Kaioshin Sama]

I just remembered who it is Akemi Homura really reminds me of after Triple_R mentioned the Dark Magical Girl thing, and where I'd swear I'd seen something like this final scenario before (more to do with episode 11). It's Hotaru Tomoe from Sailor Moon S. Same sense of fashion (all dark and black), same distant personality matched with the ability to be also be very caring in her true civilian persona (and not to mention coming off as really weak of body and spirit) while also being quite grim and arguably downright scary in her magical girl persona of Sailor Saturn.

It's almost like Madoka and Akemi are Hotaru Tomoe split into two seperate and distinct characters. Madoka carries the ungodly raw power of Sailor Saturn and Akemi captures her appearance and shifting personalities. Also Walpurgis Night captures a bit of Pharaoh 90 whose existence coming into this world alone was supposed to cause substantial damage and the only thing that could beat it was the combined co-operation of Sailors Moon and Saturn, which of course resulted in Hotaru's sacrifice of turning back into a baby and having to be born anew.

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, I'd say alternate Yuki was a different issue from Homura here.

Spoiler for Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya:

Yuki being a wish fulfillment could be seen as actually intentional; it's allegedly this ideal world she created for the sake of Kyon

I think the ultimate point of this episode is that who were are is really dictated by the situation. We have Madoka who's the true hero, but in the current timeline, she's scared and doesn't know what to do because she's revealed to the truth. Same person but different possibility.

In Homura's case, it actually helps explain why she didn't seem to take the obvious route earlier because in many ways she just didn't know what she was doing and she just didn't get the concept of communicatingto people properly. That's why she often ends up awkward or over the top. She's actually trying too hard to be cool.

As for why she broke down into this cynical being, that's what a few traumatic failures can do. When stuff works, you're not gonna think like that. Self loathing results and you begin to distance you from yourself since you've associated yourself with being too weak. It has a great relation to the mental stability of someone else in a related anime we are currently followimg.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Hmm, I'd say alternate Yuki was a different issue from Homura here.

Spoiler for Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya:

Yuki being a wish fulfillment could be seen as actually intentional; it's allegedly this ideal world she created for the sake of Kyon

I think the ultimate point of this episode is that who were are is really dictated by the situation.

Actually, I think this anime argues the exact opposite, and strongly so.

Spoiler for Some Madoka finale spoilers:

I thin that the anime argues that who we are is not dictated by situations, but rather by a core essence/personality that comes through even as circumstances change. Who we are can overcome very different, and very difficult, situations.

Madoka is ultimately the true hero in every timeline, regardless of how much about the Puella Magi system she learns. The only difference that differing degrees of knowledge makes is how knowledgeable Madoka's decisions and wishes are, but her decisions are consistently of a self-sacrificing and heroic nature in each and every timeline.

Again, this is why I don't think Homura becomes a truly totally cynical person as much as she simply puts on a mask as part of her role of trying to protect Madoka.

The real Homura, as Kaioshin points out in his Episode 11/12 review, is the one that hugged Madoka tightly in Episode 11 while crying a bit. This "moderate" Homura is the real one, in my view, the one with no mask brought about by shyness (Timeline 1) and no mask of cynicism (Timeline 5).

[Archon_Wing]

Well, the people are the same people, but the results can vary widely because of what happens. The point is that different experiences can cause people to change greatly.

It simply did not take that much for Madoka to go from a dedicated Puella Magi to someone who was second guessing herself. It's not because she's weaker in the current timeline, it's that she's exposed to different things, and more importantly, the truth. It's still the same person. Interestingly, the Madoka of the show's main timeline will have the same kind of strength, but it will come out differently.

For example, if I just happened to delete Kamijou from existence, it would be guaranteed that Sayaka would be the same person, but have an entirely different motivation for fighting which would have went down another path.

I'd agree that Homura's probaly pretending a lot of this stuff, as shown by her overacting, but her overall outlook is definitely on the decline; as now she's just completely devoted to saving Madoka and not really anyone else, willing to sacrifice everyone else. Doesn't that sound like another time traveler's descent?

[Jimmy C]

Hope this is the most suitable spot to put this.

Around the time this episode aired, there was a huge argument about why didn't Homura use her timestop while hunting Kyubei? I can't recall if it was settled.

On my most recent rewatch, I finally got it, along with the reason she used magic to blast him instead of her usual weapons. They're in the real world, in a shopping mall, fire from conventional weapons is loud and would attract unwanted attention. There's no telling who could be walking around in this dark area of the mall.

And why didn't she use her timestop? Because she didn't want Kyubei to know that's her power! At this point, that was still important to her and she didn't know he was setting up a meeting with Madoka. If she had, she would have risked exposing her secret to stop him.

Her first kill would have come as a complete surprise to Kyubei. Two or three more kills in quick succession and he could have narrowed down the possibilities to teleportation or timestop. A few more deaths and he could have eliminated teleportation based on the unlikeliness of Homura being positioned to score perfect kills each and every time she arrived via "teleport". That is, she "teleported" with her attack perfectly aimed to kill every time. Quite impossible with mere teleportation.

With teleportation eleminated, he would conclude that timestop would explain how she could be so successful at killing him. And that was something Homura wanted to avoid. Hence, she was pursuing him conventionally. That perhaps was to mislead him into thinking she couldn't use whatever her power was in quick succession as well.

And her deception successfully held for three weeks. He didn't have enough clues to guess timestop until the end of episode 8.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Hope this is the most suitable spot to put this.

Around the time this episode aired, there was a huge argument about why didn't Homura use her timestop while hunting Kyubei? I can't recall if it was settled.

On my most recent rewatch, I finally got it, along with the reason she used magic to blast him instead of her usual weapons. They're in the real world, in a shopping mall, fire from conventional weapons is loud and would attract unwanted attention. There's no telling who could be walking around in this dark area of the mall.

And why didn't she use her timestop? Because she didn't want Kyubei to know that's her power! At this point, that was still important to her and she didn't know he was setting up a meeting with Madoka. If she had, she would have risked exposing her secret to stop him.

Her first kill would have come as a complete surprise to Kyubei. Two or three more kills in quick succession and he could have narrowed down the possibilities to teleportation or timestop. A few more deaths and he could have eliminated teleportation based on the unlikeliness of Homura being positioned to score perfect kills each and every time she arrived via "teleport". That is, she "teleported" with her attack perfectly aimed to kill every time. Quite impossible with mere teleportation.

With teleportation eleminated, he would conclude that timestop would explain how she could be so successful at killing him. And that was something Homura wanted to avoid. Hence, she was pursuing him conventionally. That perhaps was to mislead him into thinking she couldn't use whatever her power was in quick succession as well.

And her deception successfully held for three weeks. He didn't have enough clues to guess timestop until the end of episode 8.

Or, and this is just my theory, she was conserving magical power.

Remember that every time the girls use their magic their soul gem gets tainted and they need to use a grief seed to cleanse it. Let it get too dirty and you turn into a witch so there's an incentive to avoid using magic when not absolutely necessary.

Remember that she had no problems whatsoever with using her magic to catch up to sayaka's soul gem (and even then she only stopped time for short bursts).

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Or, and this is just my theory, she was conserving magical power.

If that were the case, that sequence wouldn't be the most extensive example of Homura's use of magic attacks in the entire series prior to the finale.

[Tainaka]

You know what..

Madoka should have shot the gun out of Mami's hand and then ran up and hugged her and convinced her that everything was okay! XD (Okay I'm kidding, that's just my love for Mami speaking)

That would have been too sweet-- this show was already in the darkness long before this ep, plus Kyouko had already gotten owned...

(Darn this show for not allowing a few fluffy, happy moments to make up for the DEATH and ANGST.)

But 3 Megucas are better than 2 against Walpurgisnacht! ...Again love for Mami speaking ...they'd have died anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

Mami can just make more guns out of thin air. Madoka really only had one shot, so she had to make it count. Unfortunately killing Mami was the only course of action that could've saved their lives.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Sorry, but I felt the exact same way about Alt. Yuki in the Haruhi movie and it's not something I can easily make go away. I also find it pretty far fetched that her personality could change so much because of her situation of being a time traveller because my psyche class taught me that once a person reaches a certain mental age their personalites are more or less set for life and it's very rare to see someone completely invert personalites save for some form of dementia developing which I severely doubt Akemi is suffering from. However the progressive side of me is willingly to very grudgingly accept it because it can sort of work as part of the plot in a sort of post-traumatic stress disorder bringing on dementia manner (even though from our perspective we only see her go through a few loops before achieveing instant badass status from total weak-willed maiden status), but this shows just barely hanging on on this one.

Sorry but I have to dissagree with you... it might have been the case in normal cirsumstances but... from what I remeber each of her time travels is half a year... she had traveled for like 5 times already so she is already 2 and a half year older than originally. Personalitues do change in that time, mine did change. Right now I'm more open with people and myself than like 3 years ago.

Then comes the time travel issue. If she had lived for so long already and always in action, her physical body should be stronger by now.

She had attempted to change the past with her standard personality and approach many times but it did not work... wouldn't it be a sign that you need to change an approach? Besides since she is stuck in the same time loop I'm sure you would eventually stop carrying about many things. If I were to be stuck in time for such a long time I would probably try out all I could like robbing a bank, saying things I wouldn't normally say... after all you can do anything you want without any real back firing, no one will remeber it afterwards. And eventually this rebeliouse side would become a normal thing for you.

The only thing I agree with is that change might have been too sudden. As you said it not easy to suddenly change like that. It would requiere time so I would imagine a few more time travels with her attempting to be different before finally becoming who she is now.

Anime might have decided not to show all the attempts.

To sum it up, such change is possible. The change of surrounding has a huge impact as well as self analyze which you do take in account.


To strenghen my statement I'll give a real life example.
About 4 years ago I hated dancing... I didn't know how and I was too embarassed to do anything, thinking that people would laugh at me. The biggest thing I did was slightly move my hands while standing on place. All I got from this was people laughing at me and talking behind my back. I was getting the reactions I wanted to avoid.

I did not like it one bit so I decided to get involved, to dance with everyone, to be more daring... it took time, about a year maybe more. But I was slowly trying different things, trying to follow other people movements and eventually I started to dance like everyone else, going crazy about it! I've been told many times that I'm a good dancer! If someone were to tell my past self that I'll be like this in the future, I would not believe it.

I still have some issues but they are minor in comparison to what was 4 and more years ago.

So yeh, I can 100% see Homura changing that much.

EDIT: Even if it is a msak she is wearing it still is a change, she is able to control herself more.
Though if you have seen episode 12 you might notice that she still has her old characteristics, her shy and kind self didn't dissapear fully it never will. As you said character is part of us and it will never dissapear fully, but you can always supress it if you really wish for that.