[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[sento]

He said that the "pivotal answers" will come in EP6 and EP7. What he wants is theorization until the end.

And he said that EP5 comes with a trap: "This time, there will be a harsh trap, I believe those who have in some way penetrated to the core of story won't get tricked, those who haven't will probably think 'Huh?' I wish I could say more, but I can't(laughs)."

[Volcanic]

By what Ryukishi has said, I've finally sort of realized how different Umineko and Higurashi really are.

Spoiler for Higurashi Season 1:

In Higurashi, you always knew who the murderer of Keiichi or his friends was. You didn't know who killed off everyone else.

In Umineko, you have no real clue who killed anyone.

In Higurashi, those last few arcs were for answers while completing the story. In Umineko, it'll be awhile before the story ends, and we might not even get the answers to everything.

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai\Matsuri:

I'm thinking that maybe we'll have a bittersweet ending, like Miotsukushi-hen, instead of a completely happy one like Matsuribayashi-hen.

[chronotrig]

Well, Ryuukishi has also said that since people are going to be expecting answers in the second half, he'll probably end up giving some.

No, he does not intend to make any arcs past the Core Arcs. In Higurashi, he was criticized sometimes for spelling out every detail of the answer clearly for the readers, and for revealing quite a lot in the second to last arc. In Umineko, it sounds like he plans to leave some major mysteries until the very end, and some things might never be explicitly explained.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, Ryuukishi has also said that since people are going to be expecting answers in the second half, he'll probably end up giving some.

No, he does not intend to make any arcs past the Core Arcs. In Higurashi, he was criticized sometimes for spelling out every detail of the answer clearly for the readers, and for revealing quite a lot in the second to last arc. In Umineko, it sounds like he plans to leave some major mysteries until the very end, and some things might never be explicitly explained.

Ugh... that last part sounds... meh.

The way of revealing the mysteries and everything sounds really interesting, but I really don't like when there are STILL mysteries and questions even after the story is over. =/

[Marion]

100 bucks says Battler never totally disproves witches :| -shot-

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Marion

100 bucks says Battler never totally disproves witches :| -shot-

Actually this might really happen if he teams up with Beato. By the time they've "defeated" the enemy, they've formed such a friendship Battler can't bear to say "Witches' don't exist" in Red unless there's some way she's still around after. Which is probably the "bittersweet" ending I mentioned, because we all really do like Beato.

The way of revealing the mysteries and everything sounds really interesting, but I really don't like when there are STILL mysteries and questions even after the story is over. =/

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

The original Higurashi games did that with Satoshi, but the anime stuck the relavation of where he was at the end of Kai. Maybe the Umineko Chiru anime (which I am sure we'll get) will cover up some things.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by sento

He said that the "pivotal answers" will come in EP6 and EP7. What he wants is theorization until the end.

And he said that EP5 comes with a trap: "This time, there will be a harsh trap, I believe those who have in some way penetrated to the core of story won't get tricked, those who haven't will probably think 'Huh?' I wish I could say more, but I can't(laughs)."

Never change, Ryuukishi. I can actually see how people can get tricked, but I wouldn't put it past him to completely blow our minds later.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Actually this might really happen if he teams up with Beato. By the time they've "defeated" the enemy, they've formed such a friendship Battler can't bear to say "Witches' don't exist" in Red unless there's some way she's still around after. Which is probably the "bittersweet" ending I mentioned, because we all really do like Beato.

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

The original Higurashi games did that with Satoshi, but the anime stuck the relavation of where he was at the end of Kai. Maybe the Umineko Chiru anime (which I am sure we'll get) will cover up some things.

No Beato at the end!? I'd rather have the whole family die again! D:<

And yeah I know, I'm glad that the anime added that explanation in. I wanted to know what happened to him. ^^;

[Volcanic]

Now that I think about it, I realize something: even if Meta-Battler wins, what happens to him after?

Will he replace piece-Battler in the Real World? Will his memories be transferred to piece-Battler? (which would probably give piece-Battler a mental breakdown) Or will he just keep on living in the Meta-World?


I'd love for him to go to the Golden Land with Beato...;_;

[Auria]

Tbh I don't want Beato to die, that's why I made up a crack theory lol
I'm extremly Anti-Fantasy, although not 100% because of her. She and magic exists, though she can't do very much, like a powerless god. The only thing she can do is repeat the time frame of the game board. As the witch that watches Rokkenjima she saw everyone dieying. She is very hurt that the true culprit tries to make the people think she is the culprit, and as she watched Battler's efforts to prove that it was done by humans, she comes up with an idea: As she isn't allmighty and can't figure out the true culprit by herself, she carefully makes up a plan: Fuel Battler's hate against witches and help him revealing the true culprit. Lambdadelta is interessted in this idea and grants Beato a wish: The creation of the meta-world, where she can interact with Battler and use the red truth. But Lambda of course made a deal: Beato has to restrain her actions and act like a cruel witch towards Battler, be very carefully when using the red truths, being a good actress that listens to her director..
--> the 5th Game, Chiru, Battler discovers the true intentions of the honest and pure Beatrice (which is symbolized by hair-down Beato)

Well, I don't believe in it myself, of course it's dumb so I haven't thought about it further, but I wanted to share it with the BatBeato shippers ;0

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Auria

Tbh I don't want Beato to die, that's why I made up a crack theory lol
I'm extremly Anti-Fantasy, although not 100% because of her. She and magic exists, though she can't do very much, like a powerless god. The only thing she can do is repeat the time frame of the game board. As the witch that watches Rokkenjima she saw everyone dieying. She is very hurt that the true culprit tries to make the people think she is the culprit, and as she watched Battler's efforts to prove that it was done by humans, she comes up with an idea: As she isn't allmighty and can't figure out the true culprit by herself, she carefully makes up a plan: Fuel Battler's hate against witches and help him revealing the true culprit. Lambdadelta is interessted in this idea and grants Beato a wish: The creation of the meta-world, where she can interact with Battler and use the red truth. But Lambda of course made a deal: Beato has to restrain her actions and act like a cruel witch towards Battler, be very carefully when using the red truths, being a good actress that listens to her director..
--> the 5th Game, Chiru, Battler discovers the true intentions of the honest and pure Beatrice (which is symbolized by hair-down Beato)

Well, I don't believe in it myself, of course it's dumb so I haven't thought about it further, but I wanted to share it with the BatBeato shippers ;0

Actually, I've already thought of a way for Beato to exist and witches to not exist, but I'm waiting to see what Ryuukishi has in store for Episode 5 so I can confirm my theories. I'm sure it makes sense, but if it's actually true then it's going to be a huge plot twist for most people (which is why I'm hesitant to really post it at the moment).

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Now that I think about it, I realize something: even if Meta-Battler wins, what happens to him after?

Will he replace piece-Battler in the Real World? Will his memories be transferred to piece-Battler? (which would probably give piece-Battler a mental breakdown) Or will he just keep on living in the Meta-World?


I'd love for him to go to the Golden Land with Beato...;_;

He'll probably be separated from piece-Battler forever, like Bernkastel from Rika. I could see meta-Battler and meta-Beato going to the Golden Land together after it's all over, though, if she survives; they did say it takes two to make a universe, yeah?

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Auria

Tbh I don't want Beato to die, that's why I made up a crack theory lol
I'm extremly Anti-Fantasy, although not 100% because of her. She and magic exists, though she can't do very much, like a powerless god. The only thing she can do is repeat the time frame of the game board. As the witch that watches Rokkenjima she saw everyone dieying. She is very hurt that the true culprit tries to make the people think she is the culprit, and as she watched Battler's efforts to prove that it was done by humans, she comes up with an idea: As she isn't allmighty and can't figure out the true culprit by herself, she carefully makes up a plan: Fuel Battler's hate against witches and help him revealing the true culprit. Lambdadelta is interessted in this idea and grants Beato a wish: The creation of the meta-world, where she can interact with Battler and use the red truth. But Lambda of course made a deal: Beato has to restrain her actions and act like a cruel witch towards Battler, be very carefully when using the red truths, being a good actress that listens to her director..
--> the 5th Game, Chiru, Battler discovers the true intentions of the honest and pure Beatrice (which is symbolized by hair-down Beato)

Well, I don't believe in it myself, of course it's dumb so I haven't thought about it further, but I wanted to share it with the BatBeato shippers ;0

I don't really think it's dumb and I'd love for it to be that way <3

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Ugh... that last part sounds... meh.

The way of revealing the mysteries and everything sounds really interesting, but I really don't like when there are STILL mysteries and questions even after the story is over. =/

I think you might be misunderstanding me. He hopes that people will be able to figure out the mysteries, but he won't necessarily do so explicitly. For example, many of the things that happened in the 'Collecting the Kakera" of Matsuribayashi could have been guessed at given the rest of information that we had. Even if he never showed those scenes, avid readers would be able to figure things out. My guess is that it'll be something like this, instead of just a cliffhanger.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

He'll probably be separated from piece-Battler forever, like Bernkastel from Rika. I could see meta-Battler and meta-Beato going to the Golden Land together after it's all over, though, if she survives; they did say it takes two to make a universe, yeah?

Adam and Eve Plot with Beato and Battler ffft.

Spoiler for Crazy new theory:

I actually have an interesting theory- like Auria said, magic and witches do exist, but Beato never really interacts with Battler- EP1 was the only real game, and everything was done by humans, but Battler was the only survivor. He went paranoid and began to hallucinate before he was somehow put into a coma (attacked by the murderers?) and Beato took pity on him and began to grow attached to him.
One of her powers just happens to be changing and adding memories (think Namine in Kingdom Hearts) and she is also very lonely and wants to have fun with someone. So she begins to make memories of Battler and her playing a game to figure out the murders, and to keep Battler playing, makes herself a cruel witch. She wants Battler to keep his spirits up that his family can be saved.
As Magic exists, eventually the whole 1998 thing happens, but is a bit different, as Ange becomes a full witch and meets the other witches. She finds out what Beato is doing and, since she has only limited memory-editing powers, she manages to edit herself in. Beato finds out and works with this to give Battler more hope.
Beato's trick that fooled us all in EP3 was caused by Beato getting mad and having a mood swing, and the end of EP4 was her feeling so bad about it she really wished she could die, because she knew Battler would begin to hate her. (Even more than he already did)
So this game is where we find that all out, the Memory-making Beato represented by Hair-Down Beato.

...Yes it's insane xDD

[ProdigalSon]

Originally Posted by Archer

Actually, I've already thought of a way for Beato to exist and witches to not exist, but I'm waiting to see what Ryuukishi has in store for Episode 5 so I can confirm my theories. I'm sure it makes sense, but if it's actually true then it's going to be a huge plot twist for most people (which is why I'm hesitant to really post it at the moment).

LOL what's the point of being coy in a thread full of spoilers and theories? What makes you think yours is different than the hundred other ones we see in the forum?

[Archer]

Originally Posted by ProdigalSon

LOL what's the point of being coy in a thread full of spoilers and theories? What makes you think yours is different than the hundred other ones we see in the forum?

Because it assumes that magic doesn't exist, period.

Most of the Umineko fandom seem to take the meta-world for granted, since it's not required for the game to question the meta-world. I don't think that's right.

I've been reading what Ryuukishi's been saying at the moment, and I believe that he's purposely avoiding the main issue of "what are witches?" I take it that it's up to the reader to solve this mystery, and that mystery begins with a simple thought process: what is magic? If we believe what we see, we might end up with the Higurashi-style ending.

If we don't, then I see Umineko ending "outside of the meta-world", and in the actual real world, which doesn't allow for the magical or the supernatural. My theory has to do with that. However, most of english-speaking fandom would believe that such a thing isn't possible, and questioning the meta-world's existence doesn't have any reasonable logic or evidence behind it (Most of the attention in the story thus far have been on the gameboards and the meta-world, so we've gotten accustomed to it).

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Archer

Because it assumes that magic doesn't exist, period.

Most of the Umineko fandom seem to take the meta-world for granted, since it's not required for the game to question the meta-world. I don't think that's right.

I've been reading what Ryuukishi's been saying at the moment, and I believe that he's purposely avoiding the main issue of "what are witches?" I take it that it's up to the reader to solve this mystery, and that mystery begins with a simple thought process: what is magic? If we believe what we see, we might end up with the Higurashi-style ending.

If we don't, then I see Umineko ending "outside of the meta-world", and in the actual real world, which doesn't allow for the magical or the supernatural. My theory has to do with that. However, most of english-speaking fandom would believe that such a thing isn't possible, and questioning the meta-world's existence doesn't have any reasonable logic or evidence behind it (Most of the attention in the story thus far have been on the gameboards and the meta-world, so we've gotten accustomed to it).

Are you saying that the english speaking people aren't open to new theories? Of course we are! That would be very interesting!
I actually had a crack theory about the Meta-World awhile back.

Spoiler for CRACKY CRACK THEORY:

All the witches and demons are real people, and Battler was knocked out after EP1. They use technology they got from the future with Time Travel to make a new "gameboard" and make Battler think it's really "magic." (Well, not MAGIC, since Battler doesn't believe in that. You know what I mean)
They could also be the murderers, or they could be people who knew about the murders and grabbed Battler before he died so they could use him in a game. They want him to think, and also want to distract him so he doesn't lose hope, because they are really worried about him otherwise. They are good people, but they have to act like sadists out of pity for Battler. Beatrice, the ringleader, has the most pity for him, and her good nature begins to show in EP3 and EP4, but she has to "get back in character."
The Meta-World is really just a huge mansion, and Beatrice, Ronove, etc are Time-Travelers with epic technology.

More epic crack xD

[Archer]

Here's what I propose:

Spoiler for Theory:

Beatrice is an ordinary human being in the real world, not a witch.

Let's start with Maria's book. Somewhere in this book there lies a page written by a person whose handwriting differs from Maria's actual handwriting. This page was then signed "Beatrice". The possibility that Maria had two different sets of handwriting (and is suffering from multiple personalities) is there, but it's more likely that somebody else had written on this book.

Later on, with the conversation with the Witch Hunter, we find out that the letters in the bottle had the same handwriting as that page in the book. This supports the former theory earlier, but if that was the case, then Maria had to be lying, since more letters appeared after the first, and they had completely different contents. This could also be explained by "Beatrice" forging Maria's name and trying to propagate the belief in a "Golden Witch".

Finally, the letters sent to the remaining relatives also shared the same handwriting, but the circumstances surrounding these letters and the contents that these letters had directly argue against the idea that an elementary school kid like Maria could've been able to pull off all this. So that leads us to the most likely conclusion that "Beatrice" exists.

As for the "ordinary human" aspect, let's go back to those bottle letters. Why would "Beatrice" need to write a letter to begin with, let alone write so many? If she truly existed as a witch like she claimed, she could've performed magic on the people coming onto the island after the murders were over. Yet, she could not, leading people to believe at first that this was an actual massacre committed by a human culprit, and not a supernatural gore fest. Only the letters made the claim that witches were responsible even plausible.

Although there might be flimsy excuses like the witch couldn't perform in front of the investigators, the more reasonable explanation is that the letters were made to make people believe in witches in the first place. Without it, "Beatrice the Witch" could not have existed in the first place. By writing these letters, "Beatrice the Endless" was born through "Maria Ushiromiya", the "Witch of Creation". "Beatrice" would be an ordinary person otherwise.

While on that note, let me add this:

The gameboards were created from these letters. Beatrice's "Endless Realization" (stated in the EP4 TIPS) would be able to materialize magic, and would be able to do it endlessly. Through the power of the Mariage Sorciere, Beatrice would use Maria's name to create these scenarios and pass down her name as a legend.

Although the reasoning is mine, this really isn't an original theory. I heard it was part of a larger scheme called the "Mariage Sorciere" theory, which is used to deny the meta-world.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Spoiler for Crazy new theory:

I actually have an interesting theory- like Auria said, magic and witches do exist, but Beato never really interacts with Battler- EP1 was the only real game, and everything was done by humans, but Battler was the only survivor. He went paranoid and began to hallucinate before he was somehow put into a coma (attacked by the murderers?) and Beato took pity on him and began to grow attached to him.
One of her powers just happens to be changing and adding memories (think Namine in Kingdom Hearts) and she is also very lonely and wants to have fun with someone. So she begins to make memories of Battler and her playing a game to figure out the murders, and to keep Battler playing, makes herself a cruel witch. She wants Battler to keep his spirits up that his family can be saved.
As Magic exists, eventually the whole 1998 thing happens, but is a bit different, as Ange becomes a full witch and meets the other witches. She finds out what Beato is doing and, since she has only limited memory-editing powers, she manages to edit herself in. Beato finds out and works with this to give Battler more hope.
Beato's trick that fooled us all in EP3 was caused by Beato getting mad and having a mood swing, and the end of EP4 was her feeling so bad about it she really wished she could die, because she knew Battler would begin to hate her. (Even more than he already did)
So this game is where we find that all out, the Memory-making Beato represented by Hair-Down Beato.

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Spoiler for CRACKY CRACK THEORY:

All the witches and demons are real people, and Battler was knocked out after EP1. They use technology they got from the future with Time Travel to make a new "gameboard" and make Battler think it's really "magic." (Well, not MAGIC, since Battler doesn't believe in that. You know what I mean)
They could also be the murderers, or they could be people who knew about the murders and grabbed Battler before he died so they could use him in a game. They want him to think, and also want to distract him so he doesn't lose hope, because they are really worried about him otherwise. They are good people, but they have to act like sadists out of pity for Battler. Beatrice, the ringleader, has the most pity for him, and her good nature begins to show in EP3 and EP4, but she has to "get back in character."
The Meta-World is really just a huge mansion, and Beatrice, Ronove, etc are Time-Travelers with epic technology.

I agree, episode 1 is the only real game and at the end of it something happens to Battler.
What happens after that is anyone's guess but I believe all the games will be significant in figuring out how to reach a good end.

Good end for me = everyone receives love/companionship from the ones they care about before they die.
Survival is not necessary if the theme is that love is eternal (endless witch).