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Old 2011-01-30, 00:58   Link #561
ClannadDango
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
To be fair this in no way applies to the mystery genre or Sherlock Homes. All the really dedicated fandoms are like this.

But Ryukishi does reference Sherlock holmes in interviews A LOT.
Yup, I agree every medium, fandom, and genre has it's radicals but that the same time even if they are a bit crazy it just shows they are truly passionate about their love for their fandom and I respect that. Now I don't agree with the Sherlock Holmes author for calling his readers fans of a cold, calculating genre, but I understand that when the publishers and readers forced him out of retirement to write more it took the fun out of it for him and made it "heartless" for him.

Edit: Oh and I didn't say Ryukishi07 didn't enjoy writing. He stated he loved writing and working on Umineko/Higurashi with his family, but I think he hinted if the author is forced to provide an answer or explaination then it no longer becomes enjoyable for the author.
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Old 2011-01-30, 00:59   Link #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
To be fair this in no way applies to the mystery genre or Sherlock Homes. All the really dedicated fandoms are like this.

But Ryukishi does reference Sherlock holmes in interviews A LOT.
Indeed. As a matter of fact, we see a "fan" of the mystery genre *coughErikacough* who just so happens to be extremely cold and heartless. So I wouldn't be surprised if Ryukishi was, in fact, leaving a message related to Doyle's eventual hate for mystery and love for fantasy thanks to his demanding fans.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:11   Link #563
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The joy of Umineko was coming out with theories, not to mention the discussion. I believe that while the mystery was important, it was kinda overrated, and the true important thing that should be figured out (which Chiru helped out with) was Beatrice's heart. And yes, I think the whole "think up theories" was so we could feel the same impact Ange felt during EP8. Umineko was a beautiful tale, and I don't really like the fact many people of it's fanbase seem to hate it without quite understanding it. >_>
Despite not really having any problems with EP8, it seems it was the mystery puzzles that I enjoyed the most in Umineko. 8) Although I can appreciate the love story between Beatrice and Battler, of course...

I think the fanbase had some awesome moments when they came up with the Taiwan theory... the Faking theory... and maybe *cough* the Author Theory ... Even though it was after Ryukishi gave us some very big hints... or outright told us the answer... 8)

It was fun to watch the entire process of 'thinking' occur over the entire fan base...

And of course it was fun to see us sabotaging ourselves by thinking about things incorrectly too..


I can only hope his next series generates this much activity again..
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:16   Link #564
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I think the fanbase had some awesome moments when they came up with the Taiwan theory... the Faking theory... and maybe *cough* the Author Theory ... Even though it was after Ryukishi gave us some very big hints... or outright told us the answer... 8)

It was fun to watch the entire process of 'thinking' occur over the entire fan base...

And of course it was fun to see us sabotaging ourselves by thinking about things incorrectly too..


I can only hope his next series generates this much activity again..
Yup, I think that's what Ryukishi stated in an interview back when writing Higurashi, that it's more fun to see the fans come up with their own theories, search for hints, fall for the traps, and communicate with other fans in "solving" the mystery. Ryukishi has devoloped his own unique way of telling a story that not only involves the reader but all the readers together in this game. It's been fun and I look forward to see what he story he spins next.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:17   Link #565
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
Yup, I think that's what Ryukishi stated in an interview back when writing Higurashi, that it's more fun to see the fans come up with their own theories, search for hints, fall for the traps, and communicate with other fans in "solving" the mystery. Ryukishi has devoloped his own unique way of telling a story that not only involves the reader but all the readers together in this game. It's been fun and I look forward to see what he story he spins next.
Well, he seems to be working in that Higanbana manga now, although I wouldn't be surprised if he whips out When They Cry 5 during Natsukomi.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:29   Link #566
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
Edit: Oh and I didn't say Ryukishi07 didn't enjoy writing. He stated he loved writing and working on Umineko/Higurashi with his family, but I think he hinted if the author is forced to provide an answer or explaination then it no longer becomes enjoyable for the author.
I don't see why that would be the case for any instance in which an answer exists. It's one thing to write a piece of intentionally ambiguous fiction, but quite another to do what he did.

Honestly, it sounds like a lot of excuse-making to me. "It wouldn't be enjoyable to me if I just spelled it out" is something I can respect to an extent, but it requires a degree of respect I just don't have to accord him. Consequently... well, it feels like a dodge. "Don't ask me for that or you'll hurt my feelings." Yeah well, you're a big boy. If people are even asking that question, you messed up somewhere along the line.
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I think the fanbase had some awesome moments when they came up with the Taiwan theory... the Faking theory... and maybe *cough* the Author Theory ... Even though it was after Ryukishi gave us some very big hints... or outright told us the answer... 8)
I'm pretty sure every single one of those ideas came up long before the answers to any of them were "outright told" to anyone. The Taiwan theory came out ages ago, for instance, and Author Theory long preceded what I would classify as its outright confirmation via Featherine to the face in ep6. As for faking, that came up in one variation or another from the analysis of the first episode, just not strongly until ep3/ep4... but it wasn't "confirmed," again, until ep6... ep5 if you want to say it was a big hint there.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:30   Link #567
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Well, I think he said he still wanted to an Umineko Rei, right? And even still, I'd think he'd need a year or something to do the research for his next series, if this one was any indication.

Oops.. then again.. he released Higurashi Rei in Dec of 2006... then he released Umineko EP1 in Aug 2007. Man, he works fast.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:33   Link #568
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Indeed. As a matter of fact, we see a "fan" of the mystery genre *coughErikacough* who just so happens to be extremely cold and heartless. So I wouldn't be surprised if Ryukishi was, in fact, leaving a message related to Doyle's eventual hate for mystery and love for fantasy thanks to his demanding fans.
I agree with you.

I think one of his goals was to make his readers reflect on their own actions. From the beginning he knew that people would assume it was a standard mystery, even though he clearly stated otherwise.

Mystery genre readers flocked to this game. What were some things that he may have conveyed about them?
  • They only trust the author if the answers are satisfactory. (EP5)
  • They are like Erika, cold and heartless. (EP6)
  • “They always ignore the heart.” – Will (EP7)
  • They are goats who invade the island with the truth that they expect. (EP8)
So would he chastise his readers because he hates them? Do parents punish their children because they hate them?

I thought it was interesting how Ryukishi had Dlanor, who represented the mystery novel rules, define what is evil:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 5
Dlanor
“No matter how I might interpret it, there is nothing false about the way your tea TASTES. Therefore, I do not worry about how it was PREPARED.”

Narration
Though she looked cold, she was a surprisingly tactful person. If Dlanor were to deny that the black tea had been prepared with magic, this magic would surely be crushed in an instant. However, since the possibility had been presented that a tea set existed and had been used to make the tea normally, the fact that Virgilia had made the tea was, in the end, undisputed.

Dlanor
“Magic that hides the result in darkness is EVIL. I will not permit IT. However, magic that governs the process is not necessarily EVIL. My foe is evil itself, not MAGIC.”

Battler
“I see. The important thing is that you’re being welcomed with some tea, so it’s just common courtesy to avoid complaining about how it was made.”

Narration
...That’s right. It’s common courtesy to be grateful for tea that someone makes for you. There’s nothing elegant about pushing your way into the kitchen and poking around through the tea-making process.
However, even Dlanor herself understood the importance of the result:
Quote:
Battler
“So then... is magic... a gentle... lie?”

Virgilia
“The word ‘lie’ makes it sound bad. The word ‘embellishment’ is probably more fitting.”

Dlanor
“When giving a child candy, you can take a crumpled up one out of your pocket, or use a wonderful bit of sleight of hand to take the candy OUT. The impression you give with each method varies GREATLY.”

Battler
“That’s because it’s cooler to take it out with a little magic trick.”

Dlanor
“WRONG. It is significant because it embellishes the result—giving them the candy—by making it even more beautiful and FUN.”

Virgilia
“Think of when you give Maria-chan a candy. There’s a huge difference between taking it out of your pocket to give to her and slipping it into her pocket and saying a fairy gave it to her for being such a good girl.”

Dlanor
“In my opinion, it would be boorish to then question everyone about their alibis and pinpoint who it was that slipped it into POCKET. The important thing is the result: that the girl received the candy and REJOICED. And it is significant that it was embellished in a way that made her REJOICE.”
Ange finally was able to meet Battler again. Everyone met in the golden land. Rejoice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or, perhaps to put it a bit better, he wanted us to be emotionally invested in the truth (like Ange) so we could appreciate the full emotional impact of learning the catbox will never open (like Ange).

When he wanted us to find the truth, he never said we were to find the truth of Rokkenjima Prime. Our goal was to understand Beatrice, and to understand she wasn't a witch, but a princess in distress. A sleeping beauty who rests peacefully at the bottom of the sea.

Fragments of her feelings bubble to the surface, hoping to be understood. Everyone wants someone to understand their personal puzzle. To be solved and figured out. To have someone know who they are, and thus acknowledge that they existed.
Well said.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:34   Link #569
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Thematically though, what would he put in an Umineko Rei that couldn't have gone in Chiru? Why would it belong there and not elsewhere? Is the story over, or are we supposed to wait for Rei to consider that the "end?" Was Higurashi not over before then? I mean I seem to recall "endings" in both Higurashi and Umineko that didn't rely on an additional... thing.

Just how much patience am I supposed to have?
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Mystery genre readers flocked to this game. What were some of the did he try to convey about them?
  • They only trust the author if the answers are satisfactory. (EP5)
  • They are like Erika, cold and heartless. (EP6)
  • “They always ignore the heart.” – Will (EP7)
  • They are goats who invade the island with the truth that they expect. (EP8)
Nonsense. Those are all malicious generalizations he made about some people. I was fine with it when it was embodied more or less solely in Erika, but he took his veiled contempt too far.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:34   Link #570
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Well, I think he said he still wanted to an Umineko Rei, right? And even still, I'd think he'd need a year or something to do the research for his next series, if this one was any indication.

Oops.. then again.. he released Higurashi Rei in Dec of 2006... then he released Umineko EP1 in Aug 2007. Man, he works fast.
Wait did he offically say there would be a Rei? Well whatever he does he seems consitant with releasing something every Comiket.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:37   Link #571
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I'm pretty sure every single one of those ideas came up long before the answers to any of them were "outright told" to anyone. The Taiwan theory came out ages ago, for instance, and Author Theory long preceded what I would classify as its outright confirmation via Featherine to the face in ep6. As for faking, that came up in one variation or another from the analysis of the first episode, just not strongly until ep3/ep4... but it wasn't "confirmed," again, until ep6... ep5 if you want to say it was a big hint there.
Yah, that's exactly it. I'm also pretty sure I heard most of the theories ever since the end of EP1. However, how did it eventually become accepted? It seemed like most of the theories only became fully accepted (or nearly fully accepted) once some sort of answer came out, i.e. confirmation.

For example, the faking theory... even though EP5 did provide the big hint, it wasn't until EP6 before people accepted it.. and used it to reach for further theories.

I'm thinking that it's a matter of 'confidence.' But rather than confidence of an individual, it's the confidence of a group, which seems to increase much slower. It takes very little to hinder that confidence... just someone providing a very 'true' sounding anti-argument. 8)

So I'm thinking that what Ryukishi said about all of us on the internet... it may not be that much of an advantage at all...
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:40   Link #572
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So I'm thinking that what Ryukishi said about all of us on the internet... it may not be that much of an advantage at all...
Yeah okay but what about the people who were basically right? Who sort of knew where he was going with things? Who appreciated his crappy mystery heart? He seems to be drawing a line in the sand that the only people who exist are the people who understood and agree with his conclusions and the vast unwashed masses who destroy everything with their needy demanding speculation.

That can't be what he really thinks. So what is he actually suggesting here? There's not a lot of examples of nuance offered. Dlanor and Will are really the closest you can get to a middling dissenting interpretation that still gets the point.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:44   Link #573
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Thematically though, what would he put in an Umineko Rei that couldn't have gone in Chiru? Why would it belong there and not elsewhere? Is the story over, or are we supposed to wait for Rei to consider that the "end?" Was Higurashi not over before then? I mean I seem to recall "endings" in both Higurashi and Umineko that didn't rely on an additional... thing.
Spoiler for Oops.. Higurashi Spoilers.:


So, I expect some more loose ends to be wrapped up with Umineko. The story and character seemed to be wrapped up, so I'd think it'd be some kind of final answer session.

That and I'm putting my bets that in Umineko Rei, Gouda swallows one half of the Fuwarazu Magatama. The final mystery is... who swallowed the other half.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:44   Link #574
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Yah, that's exactly it. I'm also pretty sure I heard most of the theories ever since the end of EP1. However, how did it eventually become accepted? It seemed like most of the theories only became fully accepted (or nearly fully accepted) once some sort of answer came out, i.e. confirmation.
Yes it's just like when you're taking the SAT or another type of test and you are confident with your answer but since you never see the results or answer key even if you know you are right it eats away at you what the answer may possibly be.

I think what Umineko is is sort of a reverse Death Note, in DN the rules are laided out an people play around the rules. In Umineko you don't really know the rules and have to keep constantly changing theories and planning with new info. It's like being in a maze in the dark, you have to keep on bumping and feeling walls until you understand the layout.

I'm sorry what was the Fake Theory though?
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:47   Link #575
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I'm sorry what was the Fake Theory though?
That some or all of the deaths were intended to be faked for whatever reason. It started with "Someone in the shed was faking" in ep1 and evolved from there to "maybe all the deaths were just supposed to be a game" by ep3-5ish.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:50   Link #576
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Nonsense. Those are all malicious generalizations he made about some people. I was fine with it when it was embodied more or less solely in Erika, but he took his veiled contempt too far.
Yeah, they were generalizations. However, they were clearly aimed at his readers, who he felt, for the most part, were mystery novel readers. I believe he wanted to bring this crowd in on purpose.

By the way, you know what I call nonsense? Saying "it's always evil to hide the truth". You know nothing of the circumstances and neither do I. However, I know I won't be passing judgement on anyone with the limited knowledge of the circumstances.
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Old 2011-01-30, 01:54   Link #577
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Yeah, they were generlizations. However, they were clearly aimed at his readers, who he felt, for the most part, were mystery novel readers. I believe he wanted to bring this crowd in on purpose.
To what end? To insult them?
Quote:
By the way, you know what I call nonsense? Saying "it's always evil to hide the truth". You know nothing of the circumstances and neither do I. However, I know I won't be passing judgement on anyone with the limited knowledge of the circumstances.
There's nothing nonsensical about the moral belief that more information is always better than less information, which is a perfectly rational (if somewhat extreme) standpoint. Saying "always" is something of a mischaracterization of the point I was making, which is more along the lines of "unless it's made abundantly clear that there exists a reason not to." If he's not going to give us x, he's obligated to demonstrate y to us, not just assure us that y exists and that he therefore need not demonstrate x.
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Old 2011-01-30, 02:05   Link #578
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Yeah okay but what about the people who were basically right? Who sort of knew where he was going with things?
Well, if we were to take a closer look, the actual answer to the mystery existed in our heads. You know, come to think of it, he even gave us the outright answers in EP1, sometimes. Natsuhi: "It's as if Kinzo had Shannon dress up in some kind of Beatrice dress... " etc. (Paraphase.)

So, that thought actually occurred to us and low and behold it's (sort of) right! So... if the thought merely crossed our mind, do we consider ourselves to have been right? I think we all had the suspicion at one time or another, but we don't consider ourselves to have reached the answer because of that...

So, could it possibly be that we were all (collectively) right? 8) I suppose we can just declare a "We Win" in that way... 8)


But... I think in our hearts we know whether we came up with the answer or not based on how much we stuck up for our theories, and were proved correct in the end. That's why I was saying it's a matter of confidence.

So, in the end only we can gauge ourselves on how much we resisted people going, "nahhh." And so maybe finding out if you had the right answer or not is a very personal thing.


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Who appreciated his crappy mystery heart? He seems to be drawing a line in the sand that the only people who exist are the people who understood and agree with his conclusions and the vast unwashed masses who destroy everything with their needy demanding speculation.

That can't be what he really thinks. So what is he actually suggesting here? There's not a lot of examples of nuance offered. Dlanor and Will are really the closest you can get to a middling dissenting interpretation that still gets the point.
I think the other posters here offered some more insight onto what Ryukishi was getting at.

As for me, while I enjoyed the mystery aspect the most, I believed that things that lied outside the mystery couldn't conform to mystery conventions. For example, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel's character development. Most of the Meta World too...and so I enjoyed that stuff as a normal fantasy story.

As for what he really thinks... if you look at those Internet Goat People, it seems like they were easily defeated because they were people who dropped whole parts of the text in order to advance their own theories. So, rather than take the story as a whole, if you drop a chunk of it just to say your theory is true, that that is considered not 'reading the story.' Or brutalizing it.

I think one of the earliest forms of this was when he decried the phrase, "I'll never believe anything other than the red text!" <-- we now know this was extremely, extremely not useful when it was being bandied around in... what.. EP3 or 4? The harm it caused wasn't that we should doubt the red text, but that we decided to ignore the fantasy scenes wholesale. Or so some of the theorizing went around that time, if I remember correctly. "It's fantasy, so ignore it entirely!" .. instead of trying to figure out what it meant...


By the way, sorry, I'm not sure if I gave a proper answer. 8)
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Old 2011-01-30, 02:09   Link #579
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
At first I thought Umineko may have been deconstructive but when looking at others who have deconstructed their mediums, like Alan Moore, I realized Ryukishi was not doing this. Ryukishi was more open with this fans, respected their intelligence, and even say he was making these stories because he enjoyed writing them and seeing the readers' reactions. But I do think that Ryukishi's message in Umineko agrees with Sherlock Holmes author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Mr. Doyle actually believed in fantasy and supernature, even running an occult magazine, and wrote Holmes for fun. When he had enough and retired the fans and publishers demanded more and forced him out of retirement. Now that he was forced to write Holmes he longer felt the joy and realized that the fans and mystery genre was heartless demanding things out of him which is why in his later Holmes books he purposely wrote Holme's cold, calculating logic wrong (though Holmes reveals the cuprit, if you really look at clues they are not the right one like with Hound of Bakervilles).
Basically towards the end of his life, Doyle hated the coldness of the heartless mystery genre and began moving more towards fantasy and supernature.

I am not sure if anyone brought this up but if Ryukishi07 knows his mystery authors he probably read about Arthur Conan Doyle's distain for mystery and love for fantasy. This is what I sort of got from Umineko.
Few corrections:
1)Doyle believed in the supernatural because he lost a loved person. It was a coping mechanism.
2)He didn't write the Holmes stories for fun, he wrote them because he found them interesting.
3)He didn't stop writing them because the genre was heartless. He stopped because he wanted to focus on more literary work.
4)The clues weren't fair because the concept of fairness didn't exist back then.
5)Claiming that Doyle disdains mystery is quite frankly, one of the most outright wrong statements I have ever heard.
6)The reason he eventually went back to writing Holmes wasn't that his fans demanded it. It was that his mom asked him to.
7)The cold, calculating nature of his stories was not something he meant as an insult. He used that to show how the genre was a science.

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Originally Posted by Player View Post
Indeed. As a matter of fact, we see a "fan" of the mystery genre *coughErikacough* who just so happens to be extremely cold and heartless. So I wouldn't be surprised if Ryukishi was, in fact, leaving a message related to Doyle's eventual hate for mystery and love for fantasy thanks to his demanding fans.
Doyle did not hate the mystery genre. He turned to the occult in his later years after losing a loved one and undergoing a severe mental breakdown, even believing that his good friend(a known skeptic) possessed magical powers, which resulted in a fallout between them. It wasn't a sudden change of his reasoning, it was a mental breakdown. To imply he went "oh hey mysteries suck" is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I agree with you.

I think one of his goals was to make his readers reflect on their own actions. From the beginning he knew that people would assume it was a standard mystery, even though he clearly stated otherwise.

Mystery genre readers flocked to this game. What were some things that he may have conveyed about them?
  • They only trust the author if the answers are satisfactory. (EP5)
  • They are like Erika, cold and heartless. (EP6)
  • “They always ignore the heart.” – Will (EP7)
  • They are goats who invade the island with the truth that they expect. (EP8)
So would he chastise his readers because he hates them? Do parents punish their children because they hate them?
Insulting his readers because of generalizations is the sign of not only a bad writer, but an immature human being.

"They only trust the author if the answers are satisfactory."

...Yes. How the hell is that bad? You read a book, you expect it to be a good one!

"They are like Erika, cold and heartless."

Terrible example from Ryu's part, considering how Erika was hated even MORE by mystery fans who did not approve of her methods.

"They always ignore the heart."

I actually disagree with this, since I think his reasoning here wasn't directed at the readers so much as the current "gritty" mystery novels. Considering how the SSVD is supposed to be something writers follow(not that they do), it follows that he was addressing the writers.

"Episode 8 example"

I'd like to avoid talking about this one because of how wrong it is. It's the epitome of not understanding the mystery genre, despite his claims of being the only one who does and that current mystery readers are mislead.

Hope I didn't come off as too much of a jerk here. I love Umineko, it's a great series, but I can't stand certain things said about the mystery genre. It's not so much what is being said as how is being said.

Ryuukishi manages to come off as more arrogant than Raymond Chandler, and goddamn it that's quite an achievement.
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Old 2011-01-30, 02:09   Link #580
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Okay, right, but what's the middle ground? You've got like:
  • People who just come up with whatever based on what they want to be true (goats).
  • People who want an answer that fits all known conditions regardless of whether it's actually true (Erika).
  • People who want the truth to come out for malicious, selfish, or personal ends (Bern).
  • People who are interested in truth but who seem to be missing something important (Will).
  • People who arrive at the conclusion Ryukishi intended and agree with him on all points (Battler, Ange).
There are some... significant gaps in there that could fit large groups of readers.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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