Kuzu no Honkai (noitaminA)

[BWTraveller]

I wouldn't compare Hanabi to Akane that much. Yes, she's got a strong potential to walk down that path, but she most certainly is not doing that yet, even with Noriko. When Akane realized she'd taken another girl's love, she enjoyed it, found it entertaining and wanted to continue to hurt others the way she'd hurt her. Hanabi isn't like that. She knows that Noriko's hurt by the relationship, but she isn't happy to be hurting her, she just doesn't care. She even tells Mugi to straight-out reject her as a form of kindness. This is completely different from Akane. If it was Akane, she would have no concern for Mugi beyond the pleasure of knowing that she's desired until Noriko showed up, and then she would've started seducing him, while desperately wanting Mugi to continue stringing her along. This is completely different; Hanabi feels bad about taking him from someone who really likes him even though the person she's taking him from is little more than a stranger. She wants this admirer to move on or for the situation to otherwise be resolved. Sure, her actions are similar in that she's pursuing a relationship with someone else's crush and continues despite knowing that this someone else is more serious than her, but her heart is completely different.

[Harry Dresden]

Well as I said, Hanabi still has a "reason" to behave the way she does but it still comes from her ego and it still gives her a level of enjoyment and self-importance. And Akane has more than few good years of a headstart on that path.

Its not that hard to see Hanabi just outright giving up on ever actually having genuine love along the way if nothing changes and just being content with comfort others around her can provide. Sure she has some form of guilt but the comfort and satisfaction she has form being important outweighs it from actively stopping the toxic relationships she has. Not to mention that while she clearly had concern for Noriko the way their scenes were directed its quite clear at least part of her has a hypocritical sense of enjoyment of having something another wants(most likely because it makes her less hurt about not having something she wants). And its not hard to believe that guilt could fade away over the years too or morph into the idea of taking away from others what she abandoned. And then you'd truly have a Hanabi no different from Akane.

And I'd say with how we ended this episode its very likely for Hanabi to walk down that path considering she is willing to "change" herself to compete with Akane for what she wants. Which frankly I would not be surprised with Akane being okay with too because in the end that would still bring validation to Akane's method's and lifestyle. Whether Hanabi suffers as unrequited interest or completely falls to Akane's level, its a win-win for Akane.

The only real way for Hanabi to actually avoid self-destructive paths in front of her is to actually both make peace with the fact that she can't have Narumi(even if it hurts her teenager ego) and to break off toxic relationships and rethink her life. Alas since the way the episode ended and since we are nowhere near the end of the show, i'd say the journey down the rabbit hole just began. I would actually not be surprised (if the show were to go for darkest ending) if we end with some sort of tragedy and a timeskip to Hanabi having turned out to be like Akane. Whatever happens, frankly I am not expecting a complete happy ending now because it is not that kind of show. The only question is who gets thrown under the bridge.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Well as I said, Hanabi still has a "reason" to behave the way she does but it still comes from her ego and it still gives her a level of enjoyment and self-importance. And Akane has more than few good years of a headstart on that path.

Just when did Hanabi show the slightest evidence of a sense of "self-importance" or pleasure/enjoyment? She showed some antagonism as would be expected toward someone trying to get between them, and she showed some pleasure at Mugi's declaration that he liked even the darker side of her personality, but she didn't say or do anything to suggest that she actually enjoyed being above Noriko or stealing from her. At the time she treated her like an opponent, someone trying to take what was "hers", and maybe a little jealousy. Later she hated herself for the fact that she's been hurting others. But again, I have not seen one shred of evidence that she ever felt any pleasure in the pain she's caused. The closest thing to "evidence" we have is the fact that a person whose mind is already warped sees her, sees how much she attracts others, and believes that she must be meant for her "side".

[Kanon]

I was willing to give this show the benefit of the doubt until now, but the reveal that Akane is a mustache twirling villain slut made it hard to take it seriously anymore. What makes it worse is that it looks like Hanabi is willing to sink to her level to achieve her goals. I really hope she won't do that and will remain the honest girl she is.

Yay for lesbian sex though, I guess.

I don't know who is voicing Hanabi, but her work has been stellar so far, and I don't say that just because her voice reminds me a lot of HanaKana.

[Harry Dresden]

I already wrote about Hanabi and Mugi toxic relationship dynamics and the overall psychology behind that before in this very thread.

There's also the fact that Hanabi still progresses those relationships in spite of them being destructive to all parties invovled, which means she gains something from them. A sense of importance, being a hero in her own story as her lines indicate.
Akane might be more honest about her motives, but that does not meant that Hanabi's issues do not exist just because Hanabi does not openly admit her problems,

Is Hanabi like Akane now? Not yet, obviously . But the path is there, the parallels are there and narrative clearly wants to draw viewers attention to the decisions Hanabi and Mugi are making and at to how Akane is, as a possibility of such path and future, considering its not hard to see how Hanabi and Mugi's current behavior and thoughts already have a strong cynical side to it.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I really hope she won't do that and will remain the honest girl she is.

There's nothing really unreasonable about Akane as a characters. Its pretty much a trope of a "playboy" that is so very common in anime, but gender-swapped. It actually raises awareness at how many people are okay with male characters behaving in similar fashion or shoujo genre glorifying it. At the same time its not hard to see how someone would turn out this way.

As for Hanabi, i f she was genuinely honest she would have either confronted her crush with what she feels or taken steps to move on. She would have also not drawn Ecchan into the mess knowing it can only hurt her. If anything, while Hanabi can be blunt towards others, she has a problem being honest towards herself and actually deciding what she wants to do or who she wants to be. Hence why she is stuck in this giant self-destructive tantrum, a rebellion against adolescence. And hence why coming face to face with Akane's true nature seems to emtionaly destroy her.

[Yamada II]

Episode 4

Wow Akane is a terrible person. The only reason she's with basically any guy is because someone likes that guy. If Hanabi stops wanting Kanai, she'll ditch him instantly. Even though Hanabi knew that Kanai liked Akane, it still hurt her after hearing his confession. And Akane had her come there to witness that. And instead of bothering Mugi, Hanabi has some lesbo sex with Ecchan. Probably the right choice lol. I did expect some sex in this show, but I was thinking more along the lines of hetero sex and not homo sex, though I don't mind this kind of homo sex.

Akane is exploiting those guys who want her so that the girls who want those guys enter a world of emotional pain and suffering because she's some god damn sadist. Hanabi feels she's like Akane because she's using others too, especially Ecchan, for herself. She was using Mugi as a replacement, but now she made use of Ecchan's feelings for some lesbian time and to awaken to her own yuri side, probably.

This show is so full of crappie scum selfish and overall terrible people and Kanai looks so out of place here lol. I don't think I'll come to like any of these people, but I do find things kinda interesting and worth watching. Plus there's a hot lesbian turning her friend into a homosexual.

[AB079]

@BWTraveller About your reply to my post, while I agree with you there is one little detail.

Akane not only wants to steal X person from someone else, she also likes using the ones that fell to her feet. Obviously stealing someone is more exciting for her but the second option is something that she really likes too.

On a side note, even the japanese audience is reacting in a bad way to Kuzu no Honkai, or better said Kuzu no flopai because this is doing really bad.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

I already wrote about Hanabi and Mugi toxic relationship dynamics and the overall psychology behind that before in this very thread.

There's also the fact that Hanabi still progresses those relationships in spite of them being destructive to all parties invovled, which means she gains something from them. A sense of importance, being a hero in her own story as her lines indicate.
Akane might be more honest about her motives, but that does not meant that Hanabi's issues do not exist just because Hanabi does not openly admit her problems,

Is Hanabi like Akane now? Not yet, obviously . But the path is there, the parallels are there and narrative clearly wants to draw viewers attention to the decisions Hanabi and Mugi are making and at to how Akane is, as a possibility of such path and future, considering its not hard to see how Hanabi and Mugi's current behavior and thoughts already have a strong cynical side to it.


There's nothing really unreasonable about Akane as a characters. Its pretty much a trope of a "playboy" that is so very common in anime, but gender-swapped. It actually raises awareness at how many people are okay with male characters behaving in similar fashion or shoujo genre glorifying it. At the same time its not hard to see how someone would turn out this way.

As for Hanabi, i f she was genuinely honest she would have either confronted her crush with what she feels or taken steps to move on. She would have also not drawn Ecchan into the mess knowing it can only hurt her. If anything, while Hanabi can be blunt towards others, she has a problem being honest towards herself and actually deciding what she wants to do or who she wants to be. Hence why she is stuck in this giant self-destructive tantrum, a rebellion against adolescence. And hence why coming face to face with Akane's true nature seems to emtionaly destroy her.

Again, having read the previous post, just where and when was there the slightest indication that Hanabi felt any pride or enjoyment or self-importance over Noriko? I do not see one shred of this; instead she seems to feel legitimate pity. She views her as an object of jealousy and possessive aggression, and as someone who would be better off being released from her own jealousy and possessiveness by a proper full rejection. This is the polar opposite of Akane, who would have been eating it up and struggling to hide her ecstasy at being so superior to the little shrimp. Basically, their actions are very close to the same, but their hearts are still just about as different as they can be. I agree that their "loves" aren't deep enough to use such a term, as I myself had held from day one, but that doesn't equate to a sadistic love of having the power to hurt others. Hanabi is disgusted with herself for having hurt others and used them. She feels herself to be something worthy of derision (as shown by her childhood self) for what she's doing. Akane from the moment she first realized she'd hurt someone had viewed herself as powerful and loved what she did and was capable of. Hanabi may someday become like that if she's not careful, but it is seriously off to claim that she's like her now. That said, it looks like she might try to BECOME like her now to beat her, but that's from here on out, not up till now.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't know who is voicing Hanabi, but her work has been stellar so far, and I don't say that just because her voice reminds me a lot of HanaKana.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one noticing that resemblance.

The VA is Anzai Chika, she played Kousaka Reina in Hibiki Euphonium and also did a stellar job there.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by GMT

...

The series deals in cliches. It informs us of that from the beginning and re-establishes that throughout the series. Episode 4, Titled: Rotten apple.

The bouquet of flowers Hanabi holds in the opening sequence are red roses. Nearly universally accepted as symbols of romantic love. The flowers come undone, their petals scatter as though sakura petals in the wind - sakura another cliche, another truism. Understood as such by the audience. What isn’t shown in the opening credits but what is as universally known -and accepted- is that roses have thorns. Does that need to be stated? Is it so well known that nobody has to spell it out? Unlike the symbolic flowers of the ending credits. perhaps?

Pain is part of the agreement. We accept pain as an element of romantic love. it is expressed in the symbolic representations of romantic love such as roses - and their thorns. Consent is given -a priori- that pain will be experienced even when romantic love is involved. Would consent be withheld if it were known that the pain will be inflicted intentionally? Is consent revoked retroactively if the pain we agreed to suffer is the objective and not the inadvertent by-product of the relationship we enter voluntarily. Do we divorce ourselves from that possibility?

Do we owe someone love if we enter a physical relationship with them? Does it depend on their expectations? Should we expect them to articulate these expectations and -if so- at which point in the relationship?

The actors are all required because the questions of consent change again when third parties are affected. Can we consent to pain inflicted on third parties by our chosen partner(s)? Can we consent without those third parties being aware that the pain will be inflicted upon them, by our actions, not theirs. Can we consent on behalf of someone else, in other words? To explore that Hanabi needed to know Akane’s motives and objectives. The exposition is blatant, crude, but the information is essential. We needed to know. The show employs cliches throughout. Why is this introduction of Akane’s villainous objectives the straw that broke the camels back? Why is having her act and spell out the cliche she personifies here -in word and gesture- a bridge too far?

Akane’s school friend gave her consent to be hurt retroactively. In hind sight when she expressed the desire to remain friends with Akane after information provided in confidence had been used against her to inflict pain on herself. The friend didn’t know the objective was to inflict that pain intentionally, however. Neither, however, did Akane. Now she does. So do we.

Rotten apple leaves the existence of the barrel, of the other apples, unstated but the barrel is required to give the proverb meaning. An idiom, a cliche like all the other things we are shown in this series. The apples in the idiom are also accepted as people, originally neighbours, not literally fruit. Food for thought.

Shakespeare wrote farce. Tragic comedies. Tragedies. Who does this show hope to redeem? Its characters or its audience? Are we required to like characters before we empathise with their plight and their choices? In Akane’s case it is made clear that her choices affect not just herself and her immediate partner but the inadvertent other “partner” in the “adultery” as well. The unwitting “bystander”. What responsibilities does Akane have towards “them”? Does that responsibility change again as she and the hurt third party become better acquainted?

To say that this show is about characters hurting “each other” seems to me to miss what seems to me like a fairly important part of the equations. Crucial even.

Hanabi. Flowers and fire. Fireworks. Who doesn’t like fireworks?

[Alf]

Hanabi seems to start walking on the road to scum like Akane. While she have completely opposite feeling toward affection from others, chance are she will blind herself by desperate desire to win over Akane and perhaps later pleasure of flesh. With both Kanae sensei and Mugi fallen and blind for Akane, Hanabi is pretty much cornered to change herself and strike back.

It looks like the goal is set out to beat Big Bad Akane and become another scum. But since Hanabi is different from Akane in her root, and at least knowing to be considerate of other's pain, there's sufficient chance for her to have a different end.

On Hanabi and Sanae's relationship, I think it's not just yuri pandering, but a story mechanic to differentiate between Hanabi's relationship with Mugi and avoid her going all bitch like in this early stage. If you imagine Sanae being a boy, then the balance of the story is completely different.

[Peanutbutter]

My reaction after this episode:

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[Julio C]

This show is so bad yet so good. It's like putting School Days and White Album together with a hint of Sakura Trick.

Dammit it's just too much.

[Arya]

I still don't get how taking willingly Akane's path would work to fight her back. Letting aside I think she would find more solace by that than anything else, Akane's feminine charm is in a league of its own. But since she doesn't love anyone there's not much to do.
Last, but not the least, as the say goes, you can't kid a kidder!

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Arya

I still don't get how taking willingly Akane's path would work to fight her back. Letting aside I think she would find more solace by that than anything else, Akane's feminine charm is in a league of its own. But since she doesn't love anyone there's not much to do.
Last, but not the least, as the say goes, you can't kid a kidder!

Well its a win win for Akane and loss-loss for Hanabi because in this situation the only way for Hanabi to win is to not to play. Alas as long as she is going to try to have Narumi, the only path she can take is to try to match her.

Originally Posted by bleue

I think someone else already mentioned this, but it feels like they've "overproduced" it visually in the hopes that nobody will notice how shallow the story and characters really are.

There's no such thing as "overproducing". It is second best directed show this season after Rakugo sure, but that's hardly a flaw.

As for being shallow. Its a romance story. But still I'd struggle to find another similar work in this medium(which is usually filled with saccharine idealized "pure" love and harem cliches), beyond maybe another masterpiece which was Aku No Hana. Not only this presents a "teenager love" in realistic way but it manages to do it via realistic characters and without veering too much into stereotypes. Its VERY easy to get an LGBT character like Ecchan wrong and a lot of anime shows mess it up, but the way Ecchan, for example, is written, and the way her thoughts and interactions are handled are incredibly realistic and true to real world. Even the sexual interactions the way they are presented are tastefully done and logical.

[Kuroageha]

Theng go look for seinen and josei if you think that.

[Julio C]

After 4 episodes, I decide to put this show on hold until it's finally over. At this point it's pretty much becoming a sex show (or it already is), and it's just disgusting yet alluring. The only way I can watch it without going through this crap every week is to marathon it and be done with it very quickly. I haven' felt like this since I watched School Days, and I tried watching that show very fast just to see how it ended and yeah we know how that ended. I'm curious of how this show is going to end as well, but it is a painful to watch. I already have lots of shows this season to watch, so I can't pick this one up anyway.

This is easily the most controversial show of the season and perhaps for the year if it keeps it up.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

As for being shallow. Its a romance story. But still I'd struggle to find another similar work in this medium(which is usually filled with saccharine idealized "pure" love and harem cliches), beyond maybe another masterpiece which was Aku No Hana. Not only this presents a "teenager love" in realistic way but it manages to do it via realistic characters and without veering too much into stereotypes. Its VERY easy to get an LGBT character like Ecchan wrong and a lot of anime shows mess it up, but the way Ecchan, for example, is written, and the way her thoughts and interactions are handled are incredibly realistic and true to real world. Even the sexual interactions the way they are presented are tastefully done and logical.

Well, that's one area we will most definitely not agree. This series, imho, is not what I'd call "real". That doesn't mean I think that harems or cheesy romantic comedies are "real". And as I said before, I can understand that someone who's seen/read nothing but romantic comedy and idealized saccharine sweet romance and grown tired of the unreal aspects of that would be raving about how "real" this is, just like they'd be overjoyed at the lack of standard stereotypes. And I suspect if someone were to see tons of stuff like this they'd find some of those sweet romances to be remarkably "real". The problem is looking at this as a simple romance rather than a romantic drama, and realizing that it fits less with the lighthearted comic series and more with the dark, angst-filled class. Comparing one to the other is just dumb and will result in poor judgment. Judging this based on the same standards as general romance is like judging Erased based on the standards of your standard mystery genre. It just doesn't fit, and the result is that you'll either complain about the things you like in the genre that are missing or go on about how awesome it is to see something supposedly in the genre that fixes the problems you perceive in it. This goes both for the relationships and for the characters. Of course you're not going to find a standard tsundere or oblivious innocent who serves no purpose beyond fan service, because those just wouldn't fit in a dark, wangsty story like this. The only thing that might do well in a series like this that you see a lot is the yandere, and even that wouldn't be all that great. There's no reason to cheer for the loss of stereotypes that simply wouldn't happen in a genre.

Just looking at Akane shows how unreal this series is. She's a great character for bringing out what I perceive to be some of the meaning in this series, but still she demonstrates just how far from reality it is. She's just too perfect a villain, and so evil that it comes across to at least a few as funny. And this sort of demonstrates the way that the series fails to be "real". It looks at the absolute worst of the sexual/romantic heart and exaggerates it to demonstrate its weakness. This is the absolute opposite of your more common romances that look first to the purest and most beautiful aspects of the heart and focuses on that to the point of understating the potential for darkness. Neither is realistic, because both only show a part of the human heart.

[Dop]

Akane's not 'evil', she's not a 'villain'. She's a woman who's confident in her sexuality, albeit maybe for the wrong reasons. She's fucked up, and one day she'll find she's got older and can't pull that any more, and maybe realise she's made a big mistake. She's a victim, not a villain.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by Arya

[...]
Side note, Akane put down Wagner's Die Walküre book. And on the wiki page one the first things it says it's how in Norse mythology, a valkyrie is one in a group of female figures who decide which soldiers die in battle and which live.

Curious why no one else commented on the Wagner book and its possible implications for the character, Minagawa-sensei.

Spoiler for music symbolism:

What did you think of the suggestion that there might be a connection with Wagner's work, rivers and characters in Kuzu? A connection with the Rhinemaidens, for example, about which it was written on their Wikipedia page: "The key concepts associated with the Rhinemaidens in the Ring operas—their flawed guardianship of the Rhine gold, and the condition (the renunciation of love) ... "

A rose by any other name...?
皆川 茜 Mina: all, everything; Kawa: River; Akane: Red. Also a flower, Rubia. Hanakotoba:
「私を思って」「媚び」

General question.
Aimed at those advocating abstinence. Asked in the context of soldiers about to ship out for war - soldiers who may have their lives cut short by the valkyrie. Should they "resign themselves" to dying as virgins, if they're not in "committed" relationship(s), prior to getting drafted or enlisting, prior to being sent into battle?

Also, side note, for those who keep insisting on referencing the manga. The Wagner book isn't there in the "equivalent" scene, is it? One element of the anime about which the "source" offers no "guidance"...


Edit:
Harry Dresden wrote, in part:

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

"... and without veering too much into stereotypes... "

Perhaps to clarify why I wrote a previous message about cliches - I think Kuzu no Honkai is effective exactly because it does employ stereotype but then explores those stereotypes, its creators revisit, reexamine stereotypes and in that respect it is no different than other good stories, imo, it does this quite well. Seriously but also with a wry humorous look at human existence. In a Lark or Nightingale sort of way.
Kuzu is not Shakespearean but are Shakespeare's monologues at times not equally as blatant in their expository nature as Akane's scenes this episode? She is being set up and so are we, her audience. I also think Kuzu can quite comfortably exist alongside Aku no Hana.