Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

But do Homura's actions really deny Madoka's will?

Of course they do. You and I (and others) have been over this extensively on this thread. You yourself freely admitted that one valid criticism that can be made against Homura here is that she is denying Madoka her own free will. The Law vs. Desires question, remember? What suddenly prompts you to change your stance on this?

Madoka made it clear she would choose "Law" over "Desires", strongly implying she would choose to continue on as "The Law of Cycles" if given the choice to do so. Homura is essentially forcing Madoka to choose "Desires" over "Law", so Homura is going against Madoka's free will. I don't know how anybody can reasonably deny this, especially given the one time we see Madokami briefly reassert herself.

Also, I think that Madoka was very content and satisfied in her Madokami role. I think that she likely found that very fulfilling. And she may well find life as a normal human less fulfilling, even if it is filled with more desires.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Of course they do. You and I (and others) have been over this extensively on this thread. You yourself freely admitted that one valid criticism that can be made against Homura here is that she is denying Madoka her own free will. The Law vs. Desires question, remember? What suddenly prompts you to change your stance on this?

I don't even remember my previous stance, and it's interesting to see the matter from a different angle anyway.

Homura is essentially forcing Madoka to choose "Desires" over "Law", so Homura is going against Madoka's free will. I don't know how anybody can reasonably deny this, especially given the one time we see Madokami briefly reassert herself.

That's the conflict they want to setup, yes (although, it was "duty" vs "desires", not "law" vs "desires"), but this assumes that Madoka's place as god or the law of cycles is a necessity. If it's not, then trying to become a god again is just a personal desire as well, not duty.

Let's assume that Homura's world works just fine. Let's assume it works better than Madoka's. What would be the point of letting Madoka be god again? Is it even okay to go back to the previous world (provided it's even possible) even though this one is better, just so Madoka can be god again?

If Homura's world is actually fucked up and doomed somehow, than I would say Madoka has a legitimate reason to reassert herself and regain her position. If that's not the case, there is no reason except a personal desire from her part, which would render the ideological conflict meaningless.

So we have to conclude that Madoka doesn't desire to be god. That she took the role of god because it was her duty, because it was a necessity for the world or at least the magical girl system to work properly. But what if that necessity doesn't exist anymore? What if that duty has been taken care of by something else and everything is working just fine or even better than before?

More than denying Madoka's free will, what Homura did is removing the reason Madoka had to become god in the first place.

[Akito Kinomoto]

That's a lot of ifs.

Madokami's purpose is to preserve the Puella Magis' wishes and stop them from corrupting. Even if Homerun found a way to deal with the Wraiths, it's all she can do to stop one Puella Magi to remember who she is, let alone the eventual girls who would eventually come back to their senses (or realize they've become witches. And we know how they all felt about becoming 'zombies'). If the world turned out better, then she's barely keeping it together. And, that's assuming she gives a damn about anyone other than Madoka.

[Szadek]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

That's a lot of ifs.

Madokami's purpose is to preserve the Puella Magis' wishes and stop them from corrupting. Even if Homerun found a way to deal with the Wraiths, it's all she can do to stop one Puella Magi to remember who she is, let alone the eventual girls who would eventually come back to their senses (or realize they've become witches. And we know how they all felt about becoming 'zombies'). If the world turned out better, then she's barely keeping it together. And, that's assuming she gives a damn about anyone other than Madoka.

She does.It shows in her reactions after the death of Mami and Kyoko, and also in a at least one monologue in Rebellion(before the fight with Mami).
Another evidence is that the other girls are inculded in her dreamworld.
It's also an evidence that she ships Kyoko and Sayaka,but that's besides the point.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

That's a lot of ifs.

Not as much as it seems.

Madokami's purpose is to preserve the Puella Magis' wishes and stop them from corrupting.

And that seems to be covered. Note how Kyouseke still has his arm healed. Sayaka's wish hasn't been denied. And Sayaka herself is alive in the world, in human form. She's not a witch. Do witches even exist anymore. I don't think so, because there are Wraiths instead.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's the conflict they want to setup, yes (although, it was "duty" vs "desires", not "law" vs "desires"), but this assumes that Madoka's place as god or the law of cycles is a necessity. If it's not, then trying to become a god again is just a personal desire as well, not duty.

Let's assume that Homura's world works just fine. Let's assume it works better than Madoka's. What would be the point of letting Madoka be god again? Is it even okay to go back to the previous world (provided it's even possible) even though this one is better, just so Madoka can be god again?

If Homura's world is actually fucked up and doomed somehow, than I would say Madoka has a legitimate reason to reassert herself and regain her position. If that's not the case, there is no reason except a personal desire from her part, which would render the ideological conflict meaningless.

So we have to conclude that Madoka doesn't desire to be god. That she took the role of god because it was her duty, because it was a necessity for the world or at least the magical girl system to work properly. But what if that necessity doesn't exist anymore? What if that duty has been taken care of by something else and everything is working just fine or even better than before?

More than denying Madoka's free will, what Homura did is removing the reason Madoka had to become god in the first place.

That's all well and good, but the issue remains that Homura forced Madoka into it. You can't escape that.

If everything was so reasonable, why drag Madoka out by force? Why not talk to her and get her permission? Why continue to brainwash her after all is said and done?

If everything ended so perfectly she could have just explained everything and Madoka would have gone along with it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endscape

That's all well and good, but the issue remains that Homura forced Madoka into it. You can't escape that.

Let's say you're a firefighter, but suddenly someone else invents some sort of machine that eradicates fire incidents. You can't be a firefighter anymore because of this person, but that doesn't mean that person forced you into anything. It might look like Homura forced Madoka into a normal life because of the imagery in the scene when she grabs Madoka's hand and pulls her out of her god form and all that stuff. But Homura changed the world. In her world Madokami is (apparently) not necessary anymore. If that's the case, it stands to reason that Madoka would go back to be a normal girl.

If everything ended so perfectly she could have just explained everything and Madoka would have gone along with it.

Well, that's what makes the matter ambiguous. We wouldn't be having this discussion if everything was too clearcut. It wouldn't be any fun.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Not as much as it seems.

Can I if too?

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And that seems to be covered. Note how Kyouseke still has his arm healed. Sayaka's wish hasn't been denied. And Sayaka herself is alive in the world, in human form. She's not a witch. Do witches even exist anymore. I don't think so, because there are Wraiths instead.

Homulily, because Madokami couldn't get to her.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Let's say you're a firefighter, but suddenly someone else invents some sort of machine that eradicates fire incidents. You can't be a firefighter anymore because of this person, but that doesn't mean that person forced you into anything. It might look like Homura forced Madoka into a normal life because of the imagery in the scene when she grabs Madoka's hand and pulls her out of her god form and all that stuff. But really what Homura did is to eradicate the necessity of having a Madokami in the first place. Without that, Madoka defaults into her normal girl persona.

The machine's made after the fact. Madoka cleared the fires, Oktavia is being contained. If Sayaka's situation is like Homura's (an illusion), it won't end well when she or any Puella Magi remembers. Homura barely keeps one person in check, and lacks the omnipotence to track everyone else.

Originally Posted by Szadek

She does.It shows in her reactions after the death of Mami and Kyoko, and also in a at least one monologue in Rebellion(before the fight with Mami).
Another evidence is that the other girls are inculded in her dreamworld.
It's also an evidence that she ships Kyoko and Sayaka,but that's besides the point.

I don't recall Homura reacting badly to either death, and if she did, the thing with Mami in Rebellion was before she realized she became Homulily (thus falling to despair). Including the other girls in her world is supposed to normalize it enough for Madoka not to suspect anything. Not that it really worked.

[Kazu-kun]

^ Sorry, I don't really know what you're talking about. Did you watch the movie? Because it seems like you're talking about something else.

[AuraTwilight]

There has to be a legitimate, compelling reason why Madoka would try to return to the Law of Cycles because, by both her and Homura's characterization of herself, she's not someone who would throw away her life and humanity lightly, but is so wonderful that she would rise to the call and make that choice.

Madoka does it because she genuinely feels it's necessary, and if she's still trying to wake up and return to the Law of Cycles after Homura's world was created, there must be some flaw with it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's the conflict they want to setup, yes

Exactly. That is the conflict they're trying to setup, which means that Madoka's free will is being denied her. Otherwise, the conflict makes no sense. If Madoka would not be opposed to what Homura is doing if Madoka knew the whole truth, then there is no reason for this conflict to exist, or for certain key scenes in the last few minutes of the movie to be there.

Let's assume that Homura's world works just fine. Let's assume it works better than Madoka's.

Why should we assume any of this? There's absolutely no good reason to assume this. In fact, there's plenty of good reason to assume the exact opposite (including some rather disturbing-seeming symbolic imagery at the very end of the movie).

If Homura's world works just fine, or even better than Madoka's, then why would Homura go to such lengths to change Madoka's personal history and keep Madoka in the dark about her real true history?

If Homura's world works just fine, or even better than Madoka's, then it is the heights of stupidity and silliness for Homura to not simply tell Madoka and the other main cast Puella Magi that. After all, if this was the case, then you really do have a considerably improved situation overall because Akuma Homura, unlike Madokami, can interact directly with the real world even while being in an ascended status. In other words, Akuma Homura doesn't appear to have to sacrifice as much at a personal level as Madokami did, and I'm sure Homura could make a convincing argument along those lines to Madoka and Sayaka and Nagisa.

The ending of this movie only makes sense at all if there is in fact some serious downsides to what Homura has done. And those same serious downsides almost certainly do run contrary to Madoka's will or Homura would not be mind-wiping Madoka and Sayaka and Nagisa, for crying out loud. I mean, mind-wiping people is a pretty big deal!


So tl;dr, Homura is denying Madoka her free will. We can debate and discuss whether or not that is justified, but it is in fact happening. The movie's narrative does not make any sense otherwise.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, that's what makes the matter ambiguous.

What's ambiguous is the exact nature of the downsides to Homura's world. What isn't ambiguous is that at least one such downside is there, because for the reasons that Endscape and AuraTwilight and myself and perhaps others have laid out, the end of this movie makes no sense unless there is a significant downside to Homura's world (downside relative to Madoka's world).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why should we assume any of this? There's absolutely no good reason to assume this. In fact, there's plenty of good reason to assume the exact opposite (including some rather disturbing-seeming symbolic imagery at the very end of the movie).

No, there are hints. It's not confirmed one way or another. That leaves the matter open to interpretation.

If Homura's world works just fine, or even better than Madoka's, then why would Homura go to such lengths to change Madoka's personal history and keep Madoka in the dark about her real true history?

So that Madoka can fully live a normal life.

The ending of this movie only makes sense at all if there is in fact some serious downsides to what Homura has done.

Yet the movie doesn't really confirm any downsides. Just so you know, I'm not denying the possibility that there are downsides. I'm only saying that it's not confirmed so we can't prove there are.

Perhaps there are none.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, there are hints.

No, it's not just the visual hints. It's also the argument that I made.

Again, the end of this movie makes no sense at all if Homura's world has no downsides, for the reasons I've laid out.

It's not confirmed one way or another.

There's much better reason to think that there are significant downsides to Homura's world than to think otherwise.

So that Madoka can fully live a normal life.

Madoka can be aware of her Madokami history and still fully live a normal life.

But here's something for you to consider - Even if we completely put aside Madoka!World vs. Homura!World, Homura's mind-wiping alone could easily be considered an action denying Madoka's free will. I think it's a pretty safe bet that if Madoka had a choice between keeping her Madokami memories or being denied them, she'd choose to keep them, even if she still had to surrender her ascended status to Homura.

Perhaps there are none.

If there are no downsides, then the ending of the movie makes no sense at all.

It makes a lot more sense to think that there are some significant downsides to Homura's world.

Now, those downsides may well be one's that you personally would be fine with, but would Madoka be fine with them? That's what matters here when we discuss Madoka's will.

Any way you cut it, Homura is denying Madoka her free will. "She's doing it to protect Madoka from the Incubators". That was your argument some months ago, IIRC, and it's an argument that I can respect. I respect that argument a lot more than I do an argument which would make a complete mockery out of the ending to this movie and the core conflicts that it raises. As for your previous argument, I can completely understand and respect Homura making that threat assessment of the Incubators and taking drastic actions because of it. I may find it sad that it's come to this, but I can respect it, as it would make some sense to me.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So that Madoka can fully live a normal life.

Maybe that can explain why she removed her memories of Madokami, but why rewrite her memories so that she never met her friends?

There's no justification for that except that she wanted to have her all for herself, which is far from OK.

Yet the movie doesn't really confirm any downsides. Just so you know, I'm not denying the possibility that there are downsides. I'm only saying that it's not confirmed so we can't prove there are.

Perhaps there are none.

Again, if there are no downsides, why not explain everything to her? Why brainwash her?

[Kazu-kun]

Any way you cut it, Homura is denying Madoka her free will. "She's doing it to protect Madoka from the Incubators". That was your argument some months ago, IIRC, and it's an argument that I can respect. I respect that argument a lot more than I do an argument which would make a complete mockery out of the ending to this movie and the core conflicts that it raises. As for your previous argument, I can completely understand and respect Homura making that threat assessment of the Incubators and taking drastic actions because of it. I may find it sad that it's come to this, but I can respect it, as it would make some sense to me.

I still kind of think that way, but it's fun to explore other ideas, and it's true the movie never confirmed if there truly are downsides to Homura's world.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I still kind of think that way, but it's fun to explore other ideas, and it's true the movie never confirmed if there truly are downsides to Homura's world.

There are a few central elements to the ending of this movie that don't make any sense and/or are very cheapened if there are no downsides to Homura's world relative to Madoka's.

1. If there are no downsides to Homura's world relative to Madoka's world, then why would Madokami bother to reassert herself? It makes sense to think that something at least a bit problematic is prompting that reassertion.

2. The "Desires vs. Law" or "Desires vs. Duty" conflict is very cheapened if there are no downsides to Homura's world, because it would render the conflict inconsequential. It would, at most, become "Desires vs. Mere Technicality" which is a rather weak conflict to be at the very core of your movie.

3. The disturbing symbolic imagery near the very end of the movie.


And this is even putting aside the question of how much sense if makes for Homura to leave Madoka in the dark if Homura's world has no downsides relative to Madoka's world.


Now, I don't necessarily think that Homura's world is downright "doomed". My personal speculation is that Homura is sort of overwhelming the system a bit in order to maintain this new reality, causing some fraying of the edges. Maybe extra-nasty enemies pop up from time-to-time to sort of provide balance to an otherwise seemingly "overly perfect" world. And I could see Madoka objecting to the collateral damage caused by this, while Homura may consider it a price she's willing to pay. And if so, I could respect both positions there.

If I was to write a sequel for this myself, that's probably the angle I'd take with it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There are a few central elements to the ending of this movie that don't make any sense and/or are very cheapened if there are no downsides to Homura's world relative to Madoka's.

The assumption that the movie has to make sense doesn't make for solid argument. But even if it did, the fact remains there is no confirmation of downsides at all. If there was a sequel whoever was in charge of the writing would come up with some downsides. They'd have to make Homura's stance a little more problematic somehow because otherwise there would be no conflict and reason to make a sequel.

But as stand alone story, Rebellion doesn't provide such a thing. It leaves the matter floating around.

Now, I don't necessarily think that Homura's world is downright "doomed". My personal speculation is that Homura is sort of overwhelming the system a bit in order to maintain this new reality, causing some fraying of the edges. Maybe extra-nasty enemies pop up from time-to-time to sort of provide balance to an otherwise seemingly "overly perfect" world. And I could see Madoka objecting to the collateral damage caused by this, while Homura may consider it a price she's willing to pay. And if so, I could respect both positions there.

If I was to write a sequel for this myself, that's probably the angle I'd take with it

Yeah, that sounds reasonable for a sequel. I'd probably watch it.

[Sol Falling]

Complimentary to the question of what sort of downsides resulted from Homura's actions is also the question of how Homura's world is actually different from Madoka's. The technical description of what Homura did to Madoka was 'splitting' her off from the Law of Cycles, in particular the traces/history of Madoka before she disappeared from the universe. An interpretation which seems to be deliberately left open by this constructed scenario is that the Law of Cycles is still functioning--witches still do not exist (as suggested by the presence of wraiths), and the intent of magical girls' wishes is thus still being protected.

Aside from the question of what specifically Homura did to Madoka, the main other consequence is Homura's rise to power. Concretely, we are given the examples of Homura gaining dominion over the Incubators, and wielding power over Madoka and Sayaka's memories; the imagery during Homura's transformation and also in the resulting world suggest that she basically wrapped the universe in her equivalent of a witch barrier, which would provide a foundation for her reality warping abilities.

Neither of the two developments above involve any explicit downsides, so I can think of at least two possibilities for conflict based on the above scenarios which don't involve any corruption of Madoka's wish (and therefore her will). The first is that the 'human' Madoka which now exists might be a false or incomplete version of Madoka, a mere fragment (based on, as Homura mentioned, Madokami's history) trying to return to its whole. This would have the effect of placing Homura's current struggle under a lens of futility without involving any wider negative effects upon the universe.

The second idea is, that as a being derivative of a witch, Homura actually does not have conscious control over her powers. Instead, perhaps building on the surreal imagery present in Homura's universe afterwards the universe (i.e. labyrinth) has fallen under the spell of Homura's unconscious desires/impulses. Similarly Homura's emotional state might have become uncontrollably unstable as a result of her devilification. The effect here would be that Homura has traded her conscious control over her abilities and mental stability for the sake of giving Madoka a chance at normal happiness. No negative effects to Madoka's wish, the magical girl system, or the world in general need to be given, except that reality itself has become extremely unstable, with accompanying potential for crisis depending on Homura's emotional state.

[Kazu-kun]

My own interpretation about the problem of Homu's world was a matter of power consumption.

Think about it. To keep this world together Homura needs a vast quantity of power. Her own power isn't limitless. Madoka's power wasn't either. Nothing is limitless. So how does Homura fuel this world? Since the Wraiths are still around, it occurred to me that Homura could be using energy she obtains by hunting down the Wraiths (like Kyube was doing beforehand) to fuel her world. Note that she tells Sayaka they probably will become enemies when the Wraiths are completely eradicated!!

I always thought that was very curious thing to say. Why would the eradication of Wraiths mean that Homura and the magical girls suddenly became enemies? Well, if Homura's world is being powered by energy coming from the Wraiths, once all the Wraiths are hunted down, the world will start to crumble. That's where the others will oppose her.

That been said I also like Sol Falling's idea that human Madoka naturally and involuntary tries to go back to her god form because she's already part of that and it just can't be changed, regardless of what Madoka wants. That's a pretty interesting concept.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

^ Sorry, I don't really know what you're talking about. Did you watch the movie? Because it seems like you're talking about something else.

All I did was meet your assumptions with my own. Despite the Law of Cycles, Homura became Homulily because Madokami couldn't free her in time. Oktavia was about to let loose in Homura's new world, until the latter stopped it. Madoka barely came back to her senses and Homura's labyrinth started to dissipate. Your firefighter example is invalid because Homura forced Madoka out of her duty before she invented the proverbial machine. And based on what we see, Homura doesn't have the capacity to be everywhere at once like Madokami to keep track of everyone. The supposed machine she made is a Labyrinth, but she's barely keeping it going. Now imagine how Sayaka or anyone inside would feel if they rediscovered the truth (this is the assumption part) of the 'world' being false. The lack of stability and possibility of witches (Oktavia) alone would be a problem, let alone how anyone might react to this.

And btw, the problem people have with Homerun is she imprisoned her girlfriend. Stability issues aside.