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Alastor Mobius Toth · 2012-10-03, 09:33

Personally, I'd think both Raptor and Black Widow would be a cut above Type-00. Raptor has less CQC advantage, but it has thrust and stealth.

Spoiler for For that one moment in VN:

YF-23 has that too...and CQC capacity. Probably not as good as Type-00s, but still better than Raptors.

The whole dislike thing among American brass over YF-23 is both because no-one likes their doctrine proved to be ineffective, but also because America has...little institutionalized CQC TSF training as other nations do. Both Japan and U.N Pacific Army place it pretty high up on their curriculum, as probably do Soviets and Europeans. For Americans to adopt YF-23, you'd need to adjust entire pilot training scheme...for one TSF, which will probably never constitute entirety of American TSF force.

Which brings us to another point: cost-effectiveness. YF-23 is awesome, but it's also rather cost-inefficient. It's operating time is shorter then Raptor's, it's maintenance more expensive, and it's purchase prize is also more expensive. America is rich in Muv-Luv, but not *that* rich, else we wouldn't have F-16.

Which is why it's in my opinion that YF-23 would suck as a mainstay of U.S Force. It would be like German Tiger tank in WWII - awesome, but too expensive to be fielded en-masse, with short range and being very intensive on your resources. That's before we factor in that Black Widow's would probably operate across the globe if they were put into anti-BETA operations.

Now, for example, the Black Widow would be *good* for specialized units that would have to engage BETA in close quarters by necessity...like Orbital Divers or Marines. But it most certainly won't replace F-22 as 3rd Generation mainstay, especially since it doesn't seem like F-22 will be completely replacing F-15E anytime soon either.

Wild Goose · 2012-10-03, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wellis

Could the YF-23 fit American doctrine well regarding its BETA fighting doctrine? It seems like it can do anti-BETA and anti-TSF fighting equally well. I wonder if things, like the performance of American forces during the Japanese coup, would've changed if the F-23 had been the TSF accepted and deployed to Japan during the coup?

It wouldn't really have affected anything much.

The ATSF flyoffs between the YF-23 and YF-22 demonstrated a number of things: firstly, when it came to shooting and stealth, both TSFs had a similar level of performance, which exceeded that of the F-15. Secondly, the YF-23 was a hangar queen compared to the YF-22; it had longer maintenance downtime, and was more difficult and cost more to maintain, compared to the YF-22. (Note that for IRL Project ATF, similar issues befell the YF-23 prototypes; part of the reason the YF-22 was selected by USAF was because Lockheed completed more test and demonstration sorties while Northrop's boys were fixing up the YF-23.)

As for fitting into US combat doctrine, the YF-23 represented a radical shift in doctrine; American doctrine, ever since the F-4 was deployed, focused on dakka as the primary weapon against BETA, with melee being a secondary priority - the reasonable thinking was that you do not want to play to the strengths of your enemy. At the same time, however, the YF-23 team realised that sooner or later you run out of ammo, and having better melee abilities would be very useful in that regard. It's telling that according to TSFiA, the YF-23 was consistently able to defeat the YF-22 in close combat.

Integrating the YF-22 into existing US forces would have been less of a doctrine issue than the YF-23, as it slots neatly into existing US doctrine (do more of what you do, only better, with stealth!); deploying the YF-23 would have forced the US to come up with a new doctrine, which is not a small thing to do.

To be honest, though, there would have been little difference in results, whether Walken's battalion had been equipped with F-22s or F-23s.

Spoiler for Significant Spoiler on performance of Hunter Battalion's F-22A Raptors in the 12/5 Coup:

Edit: lol, ninja'ed by everyone. ;D

Edit 2: What I could see, perhaps, is something similar to the aftermath of Macross Plus, which had the Advanced Variable Fighter Project - a flyoff between variable fighters, one that was a bit more down to earth (Raptor-inspired) and what was practically a YF-23 expy (the YF-21). YF-21 lost the competition to be the UN Spacy's main variable fighter, which the YF-19 won (mind you, getting the sole prototype blown up probably didn't help General Galaxy's case), but it did win a contract to become a special operations fighter (albeit simplified and toned down into the VF-22 version, which was more practical to operate, while still having a similar level of combat performance to the prototype). The VF-19 and variants became mainline fighters, while the VF-22 was assigned to special forces.

That said, Alternative US is admittedly not rich enough to buy two new 3rd Gen TSFs. The YF-23 would be an awesome Orbital Diver machine and hive fighter, as Alastor Toth Mobius posted above, but the F-22A is the best compromise between a cutting edge next-gen TSF and something affordable that won't sideline too many squadrons for too long as they adjust to doctrine shift and spend time at Replacement Training Units (or Fleet Replacement Squadrons for the Navy).

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2012-10-03, 09:43

Them internet connections and timezones.

Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.

MrTerrorist · 2012-10-03, 10:19

MuvLuv: Comet Chapter 7

Spoiler for Ch 7:

MeisterBabylon · 2012-10-03, 10:53

All these fics puts me to shame. Its too damn good!!

Wild Goose · 2012-10-03, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Them internet connections and timezones.

Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.

^ Exactly. Well said.

There is no point in having an awesome BETA killing machine, if you cannot deploy your awesome BETA killing machine because it is undergoing maintenance.

Spoiler for That would be the most inglorious death ever::

Lt. Colonel Ken Jackson racked the bolt of his M4A1, a dark look on his face. He was not alone; all around him, the pilots of his fighter squadron were hastily drawing small arms, checking ammo, loading themselves with grenades...

The twenty four men and women had some small hope against Warrior and Soldier-class BETA, and no hope at all against the Tank-classes that were on the move towards the FOB.

The F-23A had seemed like a great idea. It was a tremendously capable machine, a powerful TSF, equally able at engaging BETA at range and in melee. The impressive combat results from the ATSF Project trials were borne out by its performance in live combat. The US Army and Air Force chose it on the basis of those results, ignoring Lockweed-Mardin's competing YF-22 design.

At this point, Jackson was sure the brass had made a mistake.

Yes, it was a wonderful machine. Yes, it was a joy to fly. And yes, it could dance around any TSF in service, especially the F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Navy's pride and joy. He'd done just that four months ago at Red Flag; his flight of F-23As had decimated a squadron of F-18Fs. Add the fact that the squadron XO was his son... well that was icing on the cake, showing his boy the old man hadn't totally lost his touch.

But facing a horde of BETA coming to his FOB, and being told that half of his group's F-23As were down for maintennance... well, it was a most inglorious way to die.

"Colonel?" called one of his pilots. "I really hope nobody tells anyone what happened here. I'd hate for anyone to know we died stupid."

"My son would never get off my case about how the Navy has its shit together more than the Army," groused Jackson. He was still sore that David had enlisted for Aviation Officer Candidate School instead of following his footsteps to West Point. Still, at least being on the Kennedy meant that his son wouldn't be dying here beside him today.

"Alright people, we may be pilots, but we're also soldiers. Our lives are forfeit, but we're gonna sell them as dearly as we can. I intend to shoot every goddamned BETA bastard I see until I run out of ammo. Once those fuckers try to eat me, I'm pulling the pin of every single grenade I'm wearing. Let's regroup in hell."

Also, FUCK YES HOGS. I gather Old Snake is supposed to be Big Boss, though when I saw that I immediately thought of Bruce Crandall instead, probably because I'd just recently watched We Were Soldiers.

EagleBlue · 2012-10-03, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Them internet connections and timezones.

Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.

It is still a shame to see the YF-23 just being stored away not being useful for anything except being turned into scrap. I would have been every happy even if they just put the YF-23 in limited production like the Shiranui Type-1C but that's for Japan.

I wish that more TSFs had the ability to mount six weapons like the YF-23. Admittedly it would have been expensive but it will at the very least, it does mean that pilots have more ammo or guns to bring to the fight.

On Comet:

Another great chapter. The one thing I really like in Comet right now is Max. Always fun to see him talking to Yuuya or anyone else. I kind of wanted to see more of Bishop or Alice interacting with Yuuya though.

wellis · 2012-10-03, 14:07

Alastor mentioned one group that fights the BETA in close quarters are the Marines. Is USMC doctrine different from the other US Armed Forces' doctrines?

EagleBlue · 2012-10-03, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wellis

Alastor mentioned one group that fights the BETA in close quarters are the Marines. Is USMC doctrine different from the other US Armed Forces' doctrines?

The American doctrine in MuvLuv focuses on bring their firepower at range and not going for close combat. Most American TSFs are only armed with a Dagger for melee. America is the only one that can supply their forces with enough ammo for the most part and they haven't really fought the BETA yet barring a few of their forces sent overseas.

erakk · 2012-10-03, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleBlue

On Comet:

Another great chapter. The one thing I really like in Comet right now is Max. Always fun to see him talking to Yuuya or anyone else. I kind of wanted to see more of Bishop or Alice interacting with Yuuya though.

Took the words off my mouth.
I'm enjoying Leon being put in his place, Sharon surprised buy his badass mature behaviour, Max seems like a big brother and we want more Alice!!!!

I also want Yui.

kaizerknight01 · 2012-10-04, 23:24

one last loop had been updated

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7112821/...-into-the-Loop

John117xCortana · 2012-10-05, 00:34

Oh no, not Yuuhi too....

And an epilogue next ? Don't tell me that the story is over !!?

Dragonkid11 · 2012-10-05, 04:54

Well,he had been burn to the point being a human charcoal before after being CARPET BOMBED and survive,so I'm sure a SD-11 is not gonna kill him

Also...Yuuhi....well....a 36mm round would indeed pulverize a human body but I'm sure that a huge robot can't aim that well at something that small...right?

Von Himmel · 2012-10-05, 06:21

Since it seem that Takeru manage to block it (a little), I think the shot might missed him but still manage to damage the building, hence the fire. Maybe she'll experience some burns but it's possible that she'll survive.

Now that I think about it, many main female characters seems to get fatal injury in this arc

Dragonkid11 · 2012-10-05, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

Now that I think about it, many main female characters seems to get fatal injury in this arc

And they are sisters too...

Tempy · 2012-10-05, 11:23

After watching a few MADs and trailers, I had the inspiration to do this.

Spoiler for Promotion:

MrTerrorist · 2012-10-05, 11:40

^Another idea for your PMC fanfic?

John117xCortana · 2012-10-05, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

Well,he had been burn to the point being a human charcoal before after being CARPET BOMBED and survive,so I'm sure a SD-11 is not gonna kill him

Also...Yuuhi....well....a 36mm round would indeed pulverize a human body but I'm sure that a huge robot can't aim that well at something that small...right?

They can one shot Tank class BETA just fine.

Also a 36mm round ? I thought it was a 120mm since it caused an explosion like that.

Is it me or did Ikaruga's reason for doing this sounds a lot like our opinion about how stupid it is to think things like national interests in the face of extinction ?

Dragonkid11 · 2012-10-06, 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

They can one shot Tank class BETA just fine.

Also a 36mm round ? I thought it was a 120mm since it caused an explosion like that.

Is it me or did Ikaruga's reason for doing this sounds a lot like our opinion about how stupid it is to think things like national interests in the face of extinction ?

Except we are not in a giant robot and lose our sanity?Yeah

John117xCortana · 2012-10-06, 03:24

Ikaruga basically surrendered to despair didn't he ?

2012-10-03, 09:33	Link #321
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Personally, I'd think both Raptor and Black Widow would be a cut above Type-00. Raptor has less CQC advantage, but it has thrust and stealth. Spoiler for For that one moment in VN: Walken being shot down by Type-94 doesn't count, since his Langley friends sabotaged his Raptor YF-23 has that too...and CQC capacity. Probably not as good as Type-00s, but still better than Raptors. The whole dislike thing among American brass over YF-23 is both because no-one likes their doctrine proved to be ineffective, but also because America has...little institutionalized CQC TSF training as other nations do. Both Japan and U.N Pacific Army place it pretty high up on their curriculum, as probably do Soviets and Europeans. For Americans to adopt YF-23, you'd need to adjust entire pilot training scheme...for one TSF, which will probably never constitute entirety of American TSF force. Which brings us to another point: cost-effectiveness. YF-23 is awesome, but it's also rather cost-inefficient. It's operating time is shorter then Raptor's, it's maintenance more expensive, and it's purchase prize is also more expensive. America is rich in Muv-Luv, but not that rich, else we wouldn't have F-16. Which is why it's in my opinion that YF-23 would suck as a mainstay of U.S Force. It would be like German Tiger tank in WWII - awesome, but too expensive to be fielded en-masse, with short range and being very intensive on your resources. That's before we factor in that Black Widow's would probably operate across the globe if they were put into anti-BETA operations. Now, for example, the Black Widow would be good for specialized units that would have to engage BETA in close quarters by necessity...like Orbital Divers or Marines. But it most certainly won't replace F-22 as 3rd Generation mainstay, especially since it doesn't seem like F-22 will be completely replacing F-15E anytime soon either. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2012-10-03, 09:43	Link #323
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Them internet connections and timezones. Hahaha, yeah. To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did. And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2012-10-03, 10:19	Link #324
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	MuvLuv: Comet Chapter 7 Spoiler for Ch 7: Anderson becomes the succeeding President. (Whether the Illusive Man plan this or not i have no idea) The UN plans to bomb the Maryland Hive in 18 days before Laser classes are made. My God! Those A-10's were beasts! And leading them was no other than Old Snake! General O'Neill. Another Stargate reference! And the veteran Comets teach the rookie Infinities over worrying doing nothing. Finally, the YF-23!!! Can't wait for the conclusion of this arc where the US forces invades the Hive and people will die. Thanks Alastor! __________________

2012-10-03, 10:53	Link #325
MeisterBabylon ~ Your Smile ~ Author Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 346Pro Age: 38	All these fics puts me to shame. Its too damn good!! __________________ 白露型駆逐艦の４番艦、夕立です。第三次ソロモン海戦では、けっこう頑張ったっぽい★？

2012-10-05, 06:21	Link #334
Von Himmel エーレンフェストの聖女 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Dollars	Since it seem that Takeru manage to block it (a little), I think the shot might missed him but still manage to damage the building, hence the fire. Maybe she'll experience some burns but it's possible that she'll survive. Now that I think about it, many main female characters seems to get fatal injury in this arc __________________ 「何かが起こっても、わたくしが守ります」

2012-10-03, 14:07	Link #328
wellis Member Join Date: May 2011	Alastor mentioned one group that fights the BETA in close quarters are the Marines. Is USMC doctrine different from the other US Armed Forces' doctrines?

2012-10-04, 23:24	Link #331
kaizerknight01 Extra Superior Otaku Join Date: Sep 2008	one last loop had been updated http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7112821/...-into-the-Loop

2012-10-05, 00:34	Link #332
John117xCortana Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Oh no, not Yuuhi too.... And an epilogue next ? Don't tell me that the story is over !!?

2012-10-05, 04:54	Link #333
Dragonkid11 A random-man Join Date: Aug 2009	Well,he had been burn to the point being a human charcoal before after being CARPET BOMBED and survive,so I'm sure a SD-11 is not gonna kill him Also...Yuuhi....well....a 36mm round would indeed pulverize a human body but I'm sure that a huge robot can't aim that well at something that small...right?

2012-10-05, 11:23	Link #336
Tempy Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ ) Author Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hotsprings Resort Age: 37	After watching a few MADs and trailers, I had the inspiration to do this. Spoiler for Promotion: YouTube https://youtu.be/pMUN2stm8d0 Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? We are not greedy men. We do not seek glory in battle. We only do what we can with our miserable lives. What you call pride and honor are luxuries we were stripped of long ago. All we can hope for today is for the right to live tomorrow, and if we have to, struggle against the dying of the light. You call us warmongers and parasites. But, you see... This is all we have. "Death isn't an option here. You've no other choice but to live." "Die, die, die! All of you die!" “All units, retreat immediately. Anti-Hive weapon is being deployed.” “Wolfskulls! Show this monster your fangs!” We've lost our motherlands, our friends, our dreams. We have no home but here; no philosophy but ours; no ideology but war. We fight not for country or government, but for ourselves. "Is it really worth risking our lives for this?! We're just following the whims of old men!" "That's going to cost you." “No matter what anyone says, you are my hero.” "Listen! I know this makes no sense but---You need to trust me...!" "So, you're going to save the world?" We need no reason to fight. We fight because we are needed. We are the hatred and fury of those who cannot, the wrath of the downtrodden and abandoned. We will sell ourselves and our service; if demanded, we will be terrorists, demons, heroes. We will be the sword, the shield, and the dagger. "I just want to see our homeland again. Is that too much to ask?" "What are you doing?! Why are you betraying us?!" "Please, come back safe." "All flights, destroy Stonehenge!" We will die. We will die alone or together. "I'm scared." "It’s okay. I am too." “We’re completely surrounded. Those poor bastards!” But we will do so because we allowed it. "We just lost the Fifth and Fourteenth flights! There's too many of them!" "Follow the kid! Don't let any of these bastards touch him!" This is our path, one that we chose. "I beg you. Please... save this planet." “Heh. No rest for the bloody wicked, right?” We have no masters. “Get up. We’re not done yet.” “You must be so exhausted...” "Rise, Izanagi." We are Stray Dogs. "This is the Sixteenth Special Operations Group. We are now entering the operation area and will pursue our objectives to destroy the BETA presence. All hostile forces will be terminated with extreme prejudice. All flights, be advised: stay out of our way." __________________

2012-10-05, 11:40	Link #337
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	^Another idea for your PMC fanfic? __________________

2012-10-06, 03:24	Link #340
John117xCortana Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Ikaruga basically surrendered to despair didn't he ?