Penguin Drum - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[mellomarie]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Am I the only one interested in all the characters? Well I guess that is good for me because no matter who they focus on I don't find it boring.

However favorites are definitely Ringo & Shouma (of the humans at least)

I would say the Penguins too but that doesn't seem to even need a mention as the Penguins are sort of Penguindrum special symbol. They are the mascot characters.

i agree. i'm definitely invested in all of the character's stories and are, at the very least, intrigued by them. i'm emotionally attached to ringo, sho, & kanba (though it's harder to sympathize with him for some people).

as for masako, i think it's harder to be emotionally attached to her because she very much comes off as a caricature, she's insanely dramatic but also not a totally emotive character. i like her so far, but i'm not attached.

speaking of kanba's voice tho, i just remembered that kanba has HAD a younger, child voice like in the flashbacks when he's adamant that his parents are innocent. perhaps kanba's deeper, adult voice was a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing? or that in masako's mind, that's what he's always sounded like?

i don't think it's a case of being "cheap".

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by mellomarie

i agree. i'm definitely invested in all of the character's stories and are, at the very least, intrigued by them. i'm emotionally attached to ringo, sho, & kanba (though it's harder to sympathize with him for some people).

I am glad to hear I am not the only one.

speaking of kanba's voice tho, i just remembered that kanba has HAD a younger, child voice like in the flashbacks when he's adamant that his parents are innocent. perhaps kanba's deeper, adult voice was a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing? or that in masako's mind, that's what he's always sounded like?

i don't think it's a case of being "cheap".

Yeah at first it kind of took me out of the mood but then I realized it kind of adds to the surrealism of the scene and I sort of found it amusing. The idea that is how Masako remembers Kanba also works.

And you are right Kanba's voice did sound different in other flashbacks.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by konart

Sor, I hardly can call her a character at this point - she is a trigger\switch, nothing more.

Not at all. A character is all about its goal. Before episode 8 Ringo's goal was to become her sister. After Shouma saves her this goal disappears. But from episode 16, what she wants is to help Shouma get over his issues. That's what the lines "I'm your stalker" actually means.

Overall, she's a proper character, and a pretty interesting one at that. Besides, after giving up her deranged attempt to become her sister, she became the only character with a mostly healthy psyche. All the others are still obsessively pursuing their hopeless objectives, which is the path to their undoing.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Not at all. A character is all about its goal. Before episode 8 Ringo's goal was to become her sister. After Shouma saves her this goal disappears. But from episode 16, what she wants is to help Shouma get over his issues. That's what the lines "I'm your stalker" actually means.

Overall, she's a proper character, and a pretty interesting one at that. Besides, after giving up her deranged attempt to become her sister, she became the only character with a mostly healthy psyche. All the others are still obsessively pursuing their hopeless objectives, which is the path to their undoing.

Nah i still regard Ringo as the most unstable character for even willing to go that far in the first place, do you understand the scandals that would have broken out had the plans actually gone through?!

I wouldn't be surprised if Ringo did all of this because she was driven by her jealously of Momoka.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Nah i still regard Ringo as the most unstable character for even willing to go that far in the first place, do you understand the scandals that would have broken out had the plans actually gone through?!

I think the most unstable character was Yuri's father

As for the rest of the characters I think they are all degrees of messed up but I don't think I would take things like scandal literally when Ringo was following some diary of destiny which actually does turn out to be diary of destiny.

In the end Ringo didn't go through with her plans and is now trying to help Shouma with his issues in the way he helped her.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ringo did all of this because she was driven by her jealously of Momoka.

I think the series made it very clear that Ringo did it all because she thought becoming Momoka was the way to get her family back together. Her parents fought because of the death of Momoka. Ringo misunderstood (as children often do in these situations) and thought if she was Momoka her parents would not have split up.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Nah i still regard Ringo as the most unstable character for even willing to go that far in the first place, do you understand the scandals that would have broken out had the plans actually gone through?!

If you watch the show with this sort of mindset, you won't be able to understand what it wants to tell you. The fact is that Ringo's plans didn't go through, and now she's probably the only character that isn't wrong in the head one way or another.

Originally Posted by Crontica

I wouldn't be surprised if Ringo did all of this because she was driven by her jealously of Momoka.

But she didn't. Her motivation, which was to put her family back together, was clearly laid out for us. Making up your own fantasy about her motivation will only get you confused on the long run.

Long story short. Stop projecting your preconceptions on the show.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Am I the only one interested in all the characters? Well I guess that is good for me because no matter who they focus on I don't find it boring.

Same,and considering how many of us did complaint that the show was too focused on Ringo for the first 9 episodes,i guess everything will even out at the end.

My only worry is just like Ikuhara fear (or maybe intended to do), the shipping of characters in this shows has increasingly took more focus than the show itself. I means... don't we all want to know what happened at that hotel when Ringo realised she's half naked next to Sho? Probably want to know it more than "what is Penguin Drum " in fact.

At least, we have everyone background now. Himari's fated person is still in question through, considering how Mario seems to be much younger than Himari. And there I'm thinking about shipping rather than how the show may unfold again

[creb]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

At least, we have everyone background now.

Nope, we still need Tabuki. One could even argue Kanba needs an episode of his own as well.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by creb

Nope, we still need Tabuki. One could even argue Kanba needs an episode of his own as well.

Forgot Tabuki. But on Kanba, i think his background will be too close onto the main storyline to need a separate episode.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Same,and considering how many of us did complaint that the show was too focused on Ringo for the first 9 episodes,i guess everything will even out at the end.

I was fine the show focusing on crazy-stalker Ringo. First 8 episodes did a great job at getting me hooked and didn't find Ringo boring, nor did she made me rage to the slightest...

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

My only worry is just like Ikuhara fear (or maybe intended to do), the shipping of characters in this shows has increasingly took more focus than the show itself.

...but this is starting to.
Between Kanba and Himari, there is a real struggle. Kanba's feelings are taboo and she is dieing. There is something really dramatic about them so they are interesting. But Shou and Ringo? Ok if you think they are cute, but they are so terrible normal. There is nothing dramatic bout them except for the "cursed fate" Shouma made up in his head. What if his parents killed Momoka? He has nothing to do with it and Ringo herself said she wanted to be with him. What else does he need? Really?

His sister is dieing, Momoka is dead, his parents missing, can't he realize by himself how promiscuous life is and grab his own happiness while it's there?

Maybe those two are there to fill up the quota of drama and/or made the shoujo fans squeal. Whatever, I will have to wait for the Fabulous the kick back, hopefully sooner than later.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

...but this is starting to.
Between Kanba and Himari, there is a real struggle. Kanba's feelings are taboo and she is dieing. There is something really dramatic about them so they are interesting. But Shou and Ringo? Ok if you think they are cute, but they are so terrible normal. There is nothing dramatic bout them except for the "cursed fate" Shouma made up in his head. What if his parents killed Momoka? He has nothing to do with it and Ringo herself said she wanted to be with him. What else does he need? Really?

His sister is dieing, Momoka is dead, his parents missing, can't he realize by himself how promiscuous life is and grab his own happiness while it's there?

Maybe those two are there to fill up the quota of drama and/or made the shoujo fans squeal. Whatever, I will have to wait for the Fabulous the kick back, hopefully sooner than later.

Okay first of all I am not going to say you are wrong for disliking Ringo/Shouma whatever we all like & dislike different things but I am still going to counter this.


First of all I hardly see Ringo & Shouma as pedestrian. You say so his parents killed her sister. Well society wise that might also be frowned upon (although yes admittedly not as big a deal as incest). Let me ask you something how do you think society might view this couple? Or more simply how do you think Ringo's parents would view her relationship with Shouma? And even though Ringo says she won't abandon him, deep down I guess Shouma is still afraid that she will. Their relationship isn't simple at all and I actually understand why Shouma is afraid to accept Ringo. Not saying he is right but I understand.

And while I enjoy the Himari/Kanba story line (although not in a shipping sense) why do I like Ringo and Shouma more well because it so far is an equal relationship. It's not just about Kanba saving Himari. It's about Shouma & Ringo saving each other.

Also unlike Kanba's feelings for Himari, I can see how and where Shouma & Ringo's feelings developed for each other. I can follow their story from the start. Saying that oh they are just cute and it is just for the shoujo fans is unfair to me as a fan. I don't find Shouma & Ringo cute. I like them because their story is well defined to me. But maybe everyone needs something different out of a story. I don't need something taboo to make it interesting. It's interesting to me because I like to see how the relationship effects the development of the characters & I get that in spades with BOTH Shouma & Ringo.

On another note I hardly see how "shipping" has taken over the series. Shouma & Ringo were in the last episode for less than 2 mins. Their relationship is certainly not having any effect on the crazy & surreal nature of the show.

[YayPepsi]

The only thing I have against Sho and Ringo is how much screen time they get. There's only 24 episodes and they took up a ton (especially Ringo.) I get it, they're the main characters, but they're also one of the more boring aspects of the show for me. Maybe it won't be so bad when the entire series is out and I can watch all the episodes at once, but week after week of Ringo episodes felt excessive. And it made me get bored of Sho too, who was my favorite character in the beginning.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Between Kanba and Himari, there is a real struggle. Kanba's feelings are taboo and she is dieing. There is something really dramatic about them so they are interesting. But Shou and Ringo? Ok if you think they are cute, but they are so terrible normal. There is nothing dramatic bout them except for the "cursed fate" Shouma made up in his head. What if his parents killed Momoka? He has nothing to do with it and Ringo herself said she wanted to be with him. What else does he need? Really?

His sister is dieing, Momoka is dead, his parents missing, can't he realize by himself how promiscuous life is and grab his own happiness while it's there?

I'm with Kirarakim here. I find the Ringo/Shouma dynamic very compelling, and much more interesting than Anime Incest Pair No. 23508.

Does any long-time anime fan seriously still get a "Wow, they're challenging taboos! How dramatic!" feeling from brother/sister incest in anime? Honestly, brother/sister incest relationships have become one of the most commonplace anime tropes around. Within the context of the anime world, it stopped being "dramatic" a long time ago, imo.

Now, what Ringo/Shouma is portraying is something that really is dramatic, particularly within that same "anime world" context.


Ringo spent a long time as a crazy-stalker, as you yourself pointed out. But instead of playing that purely for laughs and/or as totally creepy, the anime explored Ringo's stalker motivations at length, giving her very understandable (albeit also delusional) reasons for pursuing Tabuki.

Ringo simply wanted to restore her beloved family (understandable, "down-to-Earth" even). It's just that she had some delusional viewpoints on how best to achieve that, and that made her into a crazy-stalker.

In real life, "stalker" is one of the labels that tend to result in instant dismissal and/or loathing. It's one of the most loaded labels out there, and carries very strong negative connotations. In anime, "yanderes" often don't fare much better. They're often portrayed simply as creepy, twisted, possibly even beyond the point of ever being normal again.

By making Ringo a sympathetic yandere/stalker during her pursuit of Tabuki, Ikuhara seriously challenged all of that. This is what is daring, and dramatic.


But now Ikuhara is even taking it to another level. Ringo is back as a "stalker" (her own words, and perhaps not entirely misplaced). This time she's stalking Shouma. She's stalking him in the sense that she's refusing to give up on him, and she's going to try to get through to him no matter what (that's what her lines in this episode hint at, anyway).

What is typically portrayed in a negative light is now actually portrayed not merely as sympathetic, but as downright heroic.

Ringo is being made into a truly heroic yandere, a heroic stalker. "Heroic stalker" seems like a contradiction in terms to a lot of people, if not most people.


Now, within the context of the anime world, the Ringo/Shouma dynamic is compelling in another way - It completely inverts how relationships typically play out in eroges and visual novels.

In eroges/visual novels, the male lead goes around helping girls he likes with their issues, often putting his own issues aside to help out that girl. These issues often have a dramatic and/or psychological edge to them, and they're often not easy to resolve. The male lead often has to show considerable will and tenacity (like that of a stalker) in order to succeed in helping out the girl.

Ah, but Mawaru Penguin Drum is turning this entirely on its head. Now it's the girl who is tenaciously helping out the guy that she likes with his issues. The female half of the relationship becomes the proactive one, the aggressive one, the heroic one.

How often do you see female characters like this in anime? How often do you see female characters in relationship dynamics like this in anime?

Not very often, from what I've seen. I find it very refreshing, and compelling. It's great to see the female half of a pairing being the "take charge" half, the half that does most of the legwork for the pairing, the half that makes it all happen and is the one to show the most sincere affection and concern.

Instead of admirable anime male lead slowly melting down the barriers of the depressed ice queen tsundere, we see an admirable leading female slowly bust through the barriers of the cold and depressed guy in need of help.


So there you go. I for one like Shouma/Ringo a lot. In fact, it's probably now the element I like most about this anime.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Let me ask you something how do you think society might view this couple? Or more simply how do you think Ringo's parents would view her relationship with Shouma? And even though Ringo says she won't abandon him, deep down I guess Shouma is still afraid that she will. Their relationship isn't simple at all and I actually understand why Shouma is afraid to accept Ringo. Not saying he is right but I understand.

First, it's not like they had to marry each other or bring it to Ringo's parents right away either. Love and any relationship should be those it involves' business. I can see why Shou is scared but at this point he isn't giving it a try. Backing off in front of the mere thought that, maybe, people will frown upon his relationship with Ringo. Should I feel sympathy for him? Well, no.
Had he try and fail, then yes.

As for the rest of your arguments :

Originally Posted by YayPepsi

The only thing I have against Sho and Ringo is how much screen time they get. There's only 24 episodes and they took up a ton (especially Ringo.) I get it, they're the main characters, but they're also one of the more boring aspects of the show for me. Maybe it won't be so bad when the entire series is out and I can watch all the episodes at once, but week after week of Ringo episodes felt excessive. And it made me get bored of Sho too, who was my favorite character in the beginning.

Pretty much it. With the exception that I like both Shou and Ringo as individual characters. But I feel there are way more interesting elements in penguindrum to dig in than their love story.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm with Kirarakim here. I find the Ringo/Shouma dynamic very compelling, and much more interesting than Anime Incest Pair No. 23508.

I don't like incest, just to be clear. But I do find Kanba obsession over Himari and Sanetoshi trying to interfer more interesting than Ringo/Shou story .

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She's stalking him in the sense that she's refusing to give up on him, and she's going to try to get through to him no matter what (that's what her lines in this episode hint at, anyway).

Or she was too shy to simply say she liked him (how old are you Ringo, 12?) and choose to employ the term which would remind Shou of her past errors. As I see it, she was trying to lowering herself (in a figurative way) as to 1) remind Shou he saved her and she still needs him 2) she won't give up, no matter the excuses he makes up.
So much mellow between those two I'm getting diabetes just remembering that scene.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ah, but Mawaru Penguin Drum is turning this entirely on its head. Now it's the girl who is tenaciously helping out the guy that she likes with his issues. The female half of the relationship becomes the proactive one, the aggressive one, the heroic one.

Shouma hardly proved himself a man among men so far. Maybe because Kanba always steal the spotlight but I've a hard time rejoicing over it. Can't we have two strong characters in a relationship for once?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

First, it's not like they had to marry each other or bring it to Ringo's parents right away either. Love and any relationship should be those it involves' business. I can see why Shou is scared but at this point he isn't giving it a try. Backing off in front of the mere thought that, maybe, people will frown upon his relationship with Ringo. Should I feel sympathy for him? Well, no.
Had he try and fail, then yes.

I would think they have to bring it to Ringo's mom's attention before they get married. Or maybe I have a different idea of relationships than you.

But that is besides the point, I really don't care about any drama like that. Shouma just opening up to Ringo is way more interesting & well human to me. Because in the end sometimes humans are afraid to let other people in and this is regardless if your parents are terrorists.

Or she was too shy to simply say she liked him (how old are you Ringo, 12?) and choose to employ the term which would remind Shou of her past errors. As I see it, she was trying to lowering herself (in a figurative way) as to 1) remind Shou he saved her and she still needs him 2) she won't give up, no matter the excuses he makes up.
So much mellow between those two I'm getting diabetes just remembering that scene.

I think you are COMPLETELY misreading that scene. It was a call back for the audience as much as it was for Shouma (in fact in a surreal way Ringo was talking to the audience).

It's taking the term stalker and turning it around to something positive that is all.

I also don't see how wanting to stick by and help Shouma because she cares about him is lowering herself in any way.

Shouma hardly proved himself a man among men so far. Maybe because Kanba always steal the spotlight but I've a hard time rejoicing

That's because you are missing the point of Shouma's character. Shouma is somewhat weak willed. He does lets Kanba take over and make the decisions. He sees himself as just the house husband in the family. This is a flaw of Shouma's. The point is he has to grow out of this flaw and stop self loathing because of what happened to his family and it's Ringo who will help him do that. That doesn't mean he is going to stay a weak willed character throughout the series. And heck even if he changes towards the end of the series its meaningful. That is what character development is.

But Shouma has stood up to Ringo. He stopped her from raping Tabuki. He told her she was wrong. He was very strong in those moments. In fact this is the opposite of what Shouma is usually like. Because something about Ringo made Shouma assertive. At those times he wasn't just the observer. And because of this (and Shouma telling Ringo you are you) he was able to get through to her.

Can't we have two strong characters in a relationship for once?

Right because Himari is shown to be a strong character in her relationship with Kanba.

In that way I feel both Kanba & Natsume have a more interesting relationship because it's more two sided, at least in terms of strength.

The Kanba & Himari relationship might be compelling because of Kanba but it doesn't feel all that compelling because of Himari.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

I don't like incest, just to be clear. But I do find Kanba obsession over Himari and Sanetoshi trying to interfer more interesting than Ringo/Shou story .

Well, I will say that when you throw Sanetoshi into the mix, Kanba's fight to save Himari becomes a lot more interesting, imo.

So I am enjoying the Kanba/Himari subplot now too.

Or she was too shy to simply say she liked him (how old are you Ringo, 12?)

I think Sho already knows that she likes him, and I think that Ringo knows that Sho knows that she likes him. Her hints are quite obvious there.

She could say "I like you, Sho" to him outright, of course, but I think she's saving that for a moment when she thinks that one line will be the final move needed to get Sho to reciprocate.

and choose to employ the term which would remind Shou of her past errors. As I see it, she was trying to lowering herself (in a figurative way) as to 1) remind Shou he saved her and she still needs him 2) she won't give up, no matter the excuses he makes up.

I think you're on the right track here, but I don't think it's so much about "lowering herself" as it is about rising Sho up, by (yes) reminding him of how he saved her. As such, he's "made amends for his past" (if you go along with his warped view that he's responsible for his parents' actions). Ringo is trying to get Sho to realize the value he has as a person, and that his self-loathing isn't justified. That he's a better guy than he thinks.

Shouma hardly proved himself a man among men so far.

Hey, he did take a hit from a car for Ringo. That's just one small step down from taking a bullet for her.

Can't we have two strong characters in a relationship for once?

It's difficult to write a relationship where both sides are strong and honest with one another, because then... what do you have left to write?

The struggles they face as a couple? Sure, but romance isn't that big a part of Penguin Drum. It's ultimately more about how romance can impact character development, and move things to a certain end, whatever that may be.

[klare]

this is not the first time i am lost in this series but this eps is the most serious one, good to see Masako's story tho

anyway, Himari knows that maid cannot hear her shouting, so she writes it on the paper^^ i think that little part is brilliant

and now Ringo declared herself as Sho's stalker...

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I think you are COMPLETELY misreading that scene. It was a call back for the audience as much as it was for Shouma (in fact in a surreal way Ringo was talking to the audience).

That's you wanting to believe they were breaking the 4th wall here. The serie did that with Sanetoshi in ep 13?14? and it was quite different.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I also don't see how wanting to stick by and help Shouma because she cares about him is lowering herself in any way.

The other way round : she "lower herself" so Shouma will accept she sticks with him. See, part of his problem is that he thinks he doesn't deserve her because of what his parents did. So in his mind they would better no interact so she can eventually find someone else and be happy.
What Ringo, quite subtly, implies when she uses the term "stalker" is that she has her own flows, she was a stalker. Criminal level stalker. And that without Shouma, there would have been no turning back. If not for him, she would have never known happiness anyway so there is no loss on her side by sticking with him.

Using that word here is in my opinion a way to remind Shouma she is in debt toward him, that like you said she doesn't want to let go of him and also that after what she did and what they went through together, she doesn't care about that fate Shouma keeps putting forth again and again.

The point is he has to grow out of this flaw and stop self loathing because of what happened to his family and it's Ringo who will help him do that. That doesn't mean he is going to stay a weak willed character throughout the series. And heck even if he changes towards the end of the series its meaningful. That is what character development is.

I agree with the loathing part. That's his major flaw. And no, doing the chores isn't a flaw if you ask me. His helpful and easygoing nature were what made him such a great character when the serie started.
As for waiting the end of the serie to see him snap out of his emo phase, I sure hope it won't take that long.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think you're on the right track here, but I don't think it's so much about "lowering herself" as it is about rising Sho up, by (yes) reminding him of how he saved her. As such, he's "made amends for his past" (if you go along with his warped view that he's responsible for his parents' actions). Ringo is trying to get Sho to realize the value he has as a person, and that his self-loathing isn't justified. That he's a better guy than he thinks.

Another valuable take of that line, I agree.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Hey, he did take a hit from a car for Ringo. That's just one small step down from taking a bullet for her.

I forgot he did that After knocking himself out with an empty bottle on the floor in ep 15, hard to get back the image of the heroic guy...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's difficult to write a relationship where both sides are strong and honest with one another, because then... what do you have left to write?

Let's write about penguins instead!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Let's write about penguins instead!

So... are you a #1/Esmeralda shipper?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Using that word here is in my opinion a way to remind Shouma she is in debt toward him, that like you said she doesn't want to let go of him and also that after what she did and what they went through together, she doesn't care about that fate Shouma keeps putting forth again and again.

I hardly see how that is lowering herself. And it's not because she owes Shouma a debt, she doesn't owe him anything. She wants to stick by Shouma because she cares about him.

I agree with the loathing part. That's his major flaw. And no, doing the chores isn't a flaw if you ask me. His helpful and easygoing nature were what made him such a great character when the serie started.

If you read the novel you would understand that Shouma himself thinks that being a house husband is all he is good at.

Doing the chores and cooking are not bad (and I am not saying he should stop) but when you feel that is all you are good for that is a problem.

As for waiting the end of the serie to see him snap out of his emo phase, I sure hope it won't take that long.

Well I am not saying it will take that long. But I don't care about the when because I know it will happen. And that's what is important to me.

I forgot he did that After knocking himself out with an empty bottle on the floor in ep 15, hard to get back the image of the heroic guy...

He didn't knock himself out with a bottle, it was No. 2 who left it there. Which might say something about Shouma's real problem is the turmoil in himself.

But still Shouma's self loathing has not been a major interruption in the series: a line here in episode 14, another line in episode 16. It's hardly taken over the series. In fact if anything Shouma's scenes have been reduced in these last couple episodes.