2010-01-14, 14:13 | Link #2141 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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That being said, it is a gameboard created by Lambda (and to some extent, manipulated by Bern, through Erika). Thus, even if things that are unlikely to happen did happen. And these insane changes are actually a much better benefit than random fantasy scene, or anything down to ground like Ep1.
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2010-01-14, 14:22 | Link #2142 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Nope. There is no red text regarding the seals on the windows specifically, only "seals" in general.
I'm not saying that she didn't seal the doors shut, but it should have been next to impossible to seal the windows in that kind of weather. Furthemore, there's no red text regarding her staying up all night OR performing a "scientific investigation". (That one is actually impossible anyway, as it refers to materials in Kinzo's possession, and the study was locked.) Bern is lying about what Erika did in order to get the verdict she wants. Not that the trial wasn't extremely unfair to begin with... I... can't agree with this at all. |
2010-01-14, 14:45 | Link #2143 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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We know it is raining and all, and? I don't see how it is impossible, nor why it should be applied to this kind of setup. Quote:
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That and the fact a plain "anti fantasy" stance with "anyone good enough as the culprit" doesn't work.
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2010-01-14, 16:20 | Link #2144 | |||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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People do not climb around on the outsides of buildings taping windows shut. I'll accept that she did that to the doors, but anything else completely breaks suspension of disbelief. Hell, didn't she even not use a ladder? Quote:
Red truth doesn't work that way. It doesn't need external validation to become a truth... like you said, it's absolute. Yes, for the purposes of that kangaroo of a court, red from the human side needed to have evidence, and what I'm saying is that the evidence presented didn't actually exist. Rather, Bern is just saying the absolute truth without any actual backing, which is the purpose of red text to begin with. It's just against the rules she made up. To put it more simply: From the beginning of Ep5, I believe Bern and Lambda were working together towards a goal of killing both Beatrice and Battler, and blaming everything on Natsuhi, an easy scapegoat. The entire game is one giant sham. Quote:
Mystery is about finding the truth... what Bern/Erika were doing all Ep5, regardless of what they say, was denying the Illusion of the Witch. That's Anti-Fantasy. Bern even SAYS that. |
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2010-01-14, 16:49 | Link #2146 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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How could they fake their own death? This has been at the center of countless debates since EP1 Besides it wasn't really confirmed it was just a blue theory and since Battler at the same time claims he might have killed them, why should you trust the rest?
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2010-01-14, 17:51 | Link #2147 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Likely, the same person helped Genji and the children. I think they could have done it with some Halloween fake wound make up and a bunch of a liquid that looks like fake blood. Did Nanjo see Genji or the children's bodies? I am more interested in Krauss. I thought he was the one on the phone faking the voice himself, but why? I think he was planning to fake his murder and commit suicide so that if he had a life insurance policy, if one existed back then, then Natsuhi would receive some money. The true epitaph killings was probably going to have Kinzo thrown in for the 6th death again. Krauss might have traveled to Kuwadorian the night before the last call to prevent anyone from finding his body, at least at first. I have no clue why he would try to hide his death.
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2010-01-15, 00:05 | Link #2148 | |||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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And seriously, Erika is an exaggerated representation of any detective whim that would occur on a very moderate basis, but turned to be totally overwhelming here. Quote:
Deep down in the gameboard, facts were already done. Just that Erika had to mention these deeds to elevate the red truth to the open. Quote:
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They failed, and that's what I implied: mere anti fantasy stance won't work, and that's what they were doing for the whole episode. I never implied that I was talking about Battler you know? Quote:
Fake deaths are what we generally think of in a closed mystery, especially in Umineko case. However, what's actually surprising is how a WHOLE group does that, and got killed in a unexpected timing for them. Quote:
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2010-01-15, 00:28 | Link #2149 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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With the evidence presented in that episode, I do not think there is any other option other than Jessica, George, and Maria being alive when they were discovered with wounds on their necks. Possibly, they were still been in the process of dying and not actually faking. The description does say the wound is deep.
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2010-01-15, 00:44 | Link #2150 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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The study was not locked AFTER Rudolf broke the window and unlocked the door. She carried out the investigation DURING the missing 10 hours time. If Bern is lying about what Erika had done, Lambda should know it as she was the GM, as a judge, she would be blatantly unfair if she knew Bern was lying but still permitting the entry of Bern's red texts.
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2010-01-15, 01:06 | Link #2152 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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...I don't quite remember, but I believe it was a different investigation she used the forensic tools for, one that took place before Rudolf broke the window. At the time, it struck me as impossible, since the study was locked, but I may be wrong. |
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2010-01-15, 02:19 | Link #2153 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Frankly, I don’t see any difference between “anti-fantasy” and “true mystery” positions, for me it’s just some random BS thrown in by R07 to further confuse things.
I also don’t understand the huge amount of hate or at least suspicion thrown at Bern/Erika for their actions in Ep5. If anything, my respect for Bern went up considerably after Ep 5. People blame her (and, by extension, Lambda) for rigging the game, for making Natsuhi a scapegoat, etc. etc. As I see it, all Bern tried to do in Ep 5 was to faithfully pursue “pro-mystery” position and see it through to its logical end (i.e. exposing the culprit). Granted, she turned up with the wrong culprit, but that doesn’t make her an antagonist or inherently evil per se – she just wanted the game to be over and done with so that she could move on with her life (or was it afterlife?); that is, her motives could be pure and sincere, for all we know. As for Erika, the only thing she can be accused of is being overzealous (albeit to hilarious effects; and admit it, after Ep 5 she is truly the most fascinating/refreshing character which this franchise was in dire need of at that late time in its lifecycle). That’s why saying things like “Bern/Erika intentionally rigged the game”, “Erika could be the culprit”, “Erika misrepresented evidence on purpose”, “Bern’s red was a lie”, “Sealing all doors/windows was not humanly possible for Erika”, "The trial was a farce" is just plain ridiculous because it's missing the point completely. All Bern/Erika wanted was to end the game from “pro-mystery” stance in the speediest way possible which surely led to them being unscrupulous at times, but not intentionally or maliciously unscrupulous; at least we were getting somewhere which can’t be said for games with incompetent Battler as GM/detective who is usually too dense or emo to make a difference when it counts.
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-01-15 at 02:33. |
2010-01-15, 02:35 | Link #2154 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Way to ignore everything the game says about Bern's ridiculous levels of sadism. She and Erika are even more evil, depraved, and twisted than Lambda, because Lambda can at least be reasoned and bargained with.
Bern only blamed Natsuhi for everything because of how Natsuhi would react... the game, again, practically says this. Bern doesn't CARE about finding the real truth, she only cares about solving the mystery in a way that will cause the most suffering for everyone else, all to keep herself entertained. Furthemore, I can't believe people continue to defend Bern when she spent the entire episode making faces like this: Spoiler for trollkastel:
Good people do not make these kinds of faces. |
2010-01-15, 02:51 | Link #2156 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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People can make faces like that, be manipulative, don’t give a shit about others and still work towards what is generally considered “greater good” by simply being cold, rational pragmatics (a case in point is Near from “Death note” - another great character largely misunderstood by the fan community).
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2010-01-15, 02:52 | Link #2157 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Honestly, people that say this are ridiculous. What did Bern and Erika do that was so helpful? They railroaded an innocent woman and everyone died anyway. Yes, that was terribly helpful for all involved.
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2010-01-15, 03:24 | Link #2158 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Only GM is in possession of the ultimate (gold) truth. It’s Lambda’s gameboard after all, where Natsuhi could easily be a mass murderer as well as an adulteress. For all I know, Berun is in the same position as us readers for the duration of EP 5 (as well as in previous episodes, with the only difference the gameboard being of Beato’s doing).
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2010-01-15, 03:31 | Link #2159 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Oh, and the concept of the "greater good" is usually espoused by evil characters anyway. Plus... Bern isn't a cold, rational pragmatic. She's a Bond villain. Quote:
Furthermore, witches know at least some objective truths, since they can create red freely. I'm certain Bern knew exactly what Natsuhi was and wasn't. |
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2010-01-15, 03:32 | Link #2160 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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It's stated that both Bern and Lambda know that Kinzo is dead. Also, Bern gloats and laughs over Natsuhi's distress as she does it, directly contradicting your supposition of her not taking malicious action in her quest to beat the game.
I also notice you didn't address exactly what Bern and Erika were so "helpful" in uncovering.
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