(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Nostxlgia

I like this series so much because of it's "realness" and this episode had a lot of that combined with some good comedy at the beginning.

Let's not forget that even though Rudy is Paul's son in this world, he isn't actually. That is also one of the reasons why he didn't even think about how everyone else is doing because he isn't really attached to his "family" the way he would be if he was their actual son.

I've seen some people think that Rudy brought up Sylphie immediately instead of Zenith because Zenith is a high-ranked adventurer and can take care of herself, but it did feel to me more like Sylphie was more of a priority than his parents because of the emotional disconnect.

Said emotional disconnect also made the reunion with Paul harder.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^You say "circumstances", I call it convenience to force this confrontation and to create an excuse for Rudy.

Along with others' comments concerning how wide and separated the Demon continent is, making it very easy for any communications to be missed, I have to say I don't necessarily have a problem with "convenient" circumstances that "force" events in some situations. Particularly when we have at least one individual who's trying to force things in different directions.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Nostxlgia

Let's not forget that even though Rudy is Paul's son in this world, he isn't actually. That is also one of the reasons why he didn't even think about how everyone else is doing because he isn't really attached to his "family" the way he would be if he was their actual son.

I don't think that's true. Paul and Zenith might not be his "original" parents, but you could say the same about any adopted child. The truth remains that he was raised by them, he lived with them for several years, and they are his family, regardless of what he has been in his past life.

The fact that Rudy was left so devastated by his encounter with Paul and Norn amply proves that he does consider them important. If he didn't consider them family, he wouldn't care that much about losing them.

[Chosen_Hero]

^Umm, why is that quote saying I wrote that? I didn't.

Nah, it's convenience, this show is trying way too hard to have Rudy be in the right when Paul was the one spitting out facts.

Not once did Rudy try to understand what happened to himself (if you get randomly teleported across the world, wouldn't you try to find out about it?), if he did he might have learned something, but he never cared, he's just been playing the saviour for Eris and the Superd who never asked him to take on their plight as his mission.

Meanwhile, Paul has spent the last year and a half searching for his family and the people from his land trying to help as many as he possibly can, yet he's somehow the piece of shit for expecting his son to care?

Nah, sorry if I don't side with the 40 (now 50) year old man stuck inside the kid body that keeps proving how horrible of a person he is and how little he actually has changed from his past life.

[azenable]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Considering his behavior during his actual parents' funeral, I think Rudy just doesn't care that much about any version of his parents .

U need to consider the number years he had 'growing up' with this set of parent. Unlikely he Not develop feelings.

the only explanation is plot

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^Umm, why is that quote saying I wrote that? I didn't.

Nah, it's convenience, this show is trying way too hard to have Rudy be in the right when Paul was the one spitting out facts.

Not once did Rudy try to understand what happened to himself (if you get randomly teleported across the world, wouldn't you try to find out about it?), if he did he might have learned something, but he never cared, he's just been playing the saviour for Eris and the Superd who never asked him to take on their plight as his mission.

Meanwhile, Paul has spent the last year and a half searching for his family and the people from his land trying to help as many as he possibly can, yet he's somehow the piece of shit for expecting his son to care?

Nah, sorry if I don't side with the 40 (now 50) year old man stuck inside the kid body that keeps proving how horrible of a person he is and how little he actually has changed from his past life.

I don't think the idea is that Rudy is right and Paul is wrong or the reverse, they just had their own perspectives that ended up clashing here.

I mean, Rudy's first priority was protecting Eris and then he befriended Ruijerd who helped them survive the Demon Continent. Maybe during a lull he should've pondered about the broader implications of what happened to them but in-the-moment I can understand why he was more focused on what was in front of him while Paul had to deal with the immediate aftermath more on an emotional level.

Like, it's not like it's been a cakewalk for Rudy or nothing bad happened to him while they were out there, but it's just a different POV and he was unaware of what was going on outside his worldview, which this shook up.

Paul had too high expectations for Rudy and was kind of projecting his own bitterness but Rudy was ignorant to the real situation involving his family and what's been going in the wider world, and that hit like a sack of bricks when Norn showed up and Paul told him what happened to Zenith and the other girls.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by azenable

U need to consider the number years he had 'growing up' with this set of parent. Unlikely he Not develop feelings.

First, I didn't say that Rudy has no feelings for his current parents at all. I said "he doesn't care that much". Especially when compared to his sisters & his childhood girl-friend.

Second, Rudy also grew up with his actual parents when he was a hikki-NEET. Yet he was busy jacking off to child porn during said parents' funeral. Not much love there, was it?

So, for Rudy, growing up with parents =/= loving his parents so much. If Rudy really do love his current parents, there must be (or should be) a different/deeper factor this time than just growing up with them.

Originally Posted by azenable

the only explanation is plot

That, I agree.

[Nostxlgia]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't think that's true. Paul and Zenith might not be his "original" parents, but you could say the same about any adopted child. The truth remains that he was raised by them, he lived with them for several years, and they are his family, regardless of what he has been in his past life.

The fact that Rudy was left so devastated by his encounter with Paul and Norn amply proves that he does consider them important. If he didn't consider them family, he wouldn't care that much about losing them.

I agree to some degree that he does feel a certain way about them although keep in mid, he's a grown man in a child's body. This is a guy that has already experienced life at some level before, his attachment is per default not the same as it would be if he were to actually grow up with those parents, he was conscious the whole time therefore I don't think he's as attached as everyone thinks.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, for Rudy, growing up with parents =/= loving his parents so much. If Rudy really do love his current parents, there must be (or should be) a different/deeper factor this time than just growing up with them.

We have absolutely no context regarding Rudeus' past life, aside of the fact he was a neet after going through trauma thanks to extreme bullying. That being said, the series has been very clear when it comes to Rudeus being affected by self loathing and other stuff around given what happened to him.

Simply growing up with parents don't magically make any child your cookie cutter lovely kid. A typical example would be the father always at work and barely spending time with his son, while the mother simply pushes her child to strive in school without realizing the underneath issue. I don't want to dig data and testimony regarding children in Japan, but bullying, competition in studies, family expectations etc are a real thing when it comes to children feeling dejected, which is a common reason for them to commit suicide. As such, his behaviour towards his parents in his past life shouldn't be taken as a solid reference because his upbringing is quite different.

Instead of relying on the concept of "parents" and whatnot, it is more pertinent to consider what Rudeus has been doing so far.
Aside of what Jan-poo noted, Rudeus could also feign ignorance when Paul's affair with Lilia came to light. Instead, he defused the situation to save his family at large. After his confrontation with Paul, he tried acting as "usual", but that facade crumbled on the spot. That's coming from a character who was pretty much carefree for years.

Those points are enough to illustrate his opinion about Paul, Zenith and the rest. Of course, he doesn't perceive them as his real parents, but his actions and reactions pretty much demonstrate they are still important to him.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^Umm, why is that quote saying I wrote that? I didn't.

Sorry there must have been some mishap while quoting different posts.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Not once did Rudy try to understand what happened to himself (if you get randomly teleported across the world, wouldn't you try to find out about it?)

And how exactly was he supposed to do that? It's an event that literally happened on the other side of the planet. The logical thing to do in his case was focusing on going back, then he could try to find out more.
It wasn't really reasonable to expect that info on that event would have reached a completely different continent, because he couldn't even expect that it was something that affected anything more than himself, Eris and Ghislaine. In his mind his family was safe and sound.

Even if you want to suggest at all costs that he didn't care at all about his family, you simply cannot deny that he cares about Sylphie, but he didn't worry about her either, and that proves without a shadow of doubts that he didn't think that something happened to his village, and not for lack of care.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Meanwhile, Paul has spent the last year and a half searching for his family and the people from his land trying to help as many as he possibly can, yet he's somehow the piece of shit for expecting his son to care?

Nah, sorry if I don't side with the 40 (now 50) year old man stuck inside the kid body that keeps proving how horrible of a person he is and how little he actually has changed from his past life.

Meanwhile you sympathize with the man who cheated on his wife (probably more than once and with more than one person) and whose ex party members have nothing to say about him apart the fact that he's scum.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, for Rudy, growing up with parents =/= loving his parents so much. If Rudy really do love his current parents, there must be (or should be) a different/deeper factor this time than just growing up with them.

It's the opposite. There should be a deeper different factor that led him to not care that much about his original parents. We didn't really get enough info on that though.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^Umm, why is that quote saying I wrote that? I didn't.

Nah, it's convenience, this show is trying way too hard to have Rudy be in the right when Paul was the one spitting out facts.

Not once did Rudy try to understand what happened to himself (if you get randomly teleported across the world, wouldn't you try to find out about it?), if he did he might have learned something, but he never cared, he's just been playing the saviour for Eris and the Superd who never asked him to take on their plight as his mission.

Meanwhile, Paul has spent the last year and a half searching for his family and the people from his land trying to help as many as he possibly can, yet he's somehow the piece of shit for expecting his son to care?

Nah, sorry if I don't side with the 40 (now 50) year old man stuck inside the kid body that keeps proving how horrible of a person he is and how little he actually has changed from his past life.

First, yes you did write that. At least there's a post in the previous page with your name on it that says that. I didn't make any changes, just clicked the "quote" button.

And just how is this trying to make Rudy right? I didn't get that AT ALL. It was clearly meant to be a horrifying wakeup for Rudy about the magnitude of the situation. Sure, it's not supposed to make Paul entirely "right" either, Rudy was unaware of the scale of the disaster and couldn't really be expected to have even thought for a moment that the explosion extended that far, much less try to confirm it. That's like seeing an explosion in New York and wondering if Georgia's OK (some exaggeration perhaps, but point remains that even the most immense explosions we've had don't compare).

Anyway, who would he have asked? He didn't see anything on the boards, didn't meet any humans, didn't encounter people who'd known about it. You're blaming a guy for being clumsy in a pitch-black room without a flashlight. On top of that, he and Eris were trapped far from home surrounded by danger, both in the form of enemies that want to hurt them and a simple inability to survive with zero credentials or supports. He wasn't "playing hero", he just saw that before he could do anything else or worry about Ghislaine and Eris' family (the only ones he reasonably figured might have been caught up in it) first he needed to at the least get back to a place they knew.

Their situations were far different. The person closest to him was still with him, the next closest was a badass he knew would be able to fight her way out of Hell itself, and given the fact that they were in the most dangerous kind of place survival looked to him like an obvious priority over looking for Eris' family (again, the only ones he had reason to assume had been caught up). Paul on the other hand lost his wife, mistress and one daughter. He was far enough away that he saw the magnitude of the disaster and had plenty reason to understand that it'd probably effected an absurd area. Of course he'd have started investigating and treating it as a nation-wide disaster, while initiating a vast search for his family and anyone else in similar situations.

[Frontier]

I'm guessing Paul also knows what happened to Eris' grandpa so...I'm assuming more family drama is going to ensue one way or another.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

We have absolutely no context regarding Rudeus' past life, aside of the fact he was a neet after going through trauma thanks to extreme bullying. That being said, the series has been very clear when it comes to Rudeus being affected by self loathing and other stuff around given what happened to him.

Simply growing up with parents don't magically make any child your cookie cutter lovely kid. A typical example would be the father always at work and barely spending time with his son, while the mother simply pushes her child to strive in school without realizing the underneath issue. I don't want to dig data and testimony regarding children in Japan, but bullying, competition in studies, family expectations etc are a real thing when it comes to children feeling dejected, which is a common reason for them to commit suicide. As such, his behaviour towards his parents in his past life shouldn't be taken as a solid reference because his upbringing is quite different.

The bolded line is actually my point that I said to argue azenable's point above. He said that simply growing up with parents will make the child (Rudy in this case) have feelings/care for his parents when it's not enough and not that simple. So we're on the same side on that part.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Instead of relying on the concept of "parents" and whatnot, it is more pertinent to consider what Rudeus has been doing so far.
Aside of what Jan-poo noted, Rudeus could also feign ignorance when Paul's affair with Lilia came to light. Instead, he defused the situation to save his family at large. After his confrontation with Paul, he tried acting as "usual", but that facade crumbled on the spot. That's coming from a character who was pretty much carefree for years.

Those points are enough to illustrate his opinion about Paul, Zenith and the rest. Of course, he doesn't perceive them as his real parents, but his actions and reactions pretty much demonstrate they are still important to him.

Regarding the affair stuff, Rudy's motivation for defusing the situation can also be seen as "something he needed to do to avoid greater inconvenience". As we all understand, a strained/broken family is not a good environment to be in/grow up in (it can also be seen as a great hassle). Given his past-life experience where Rudy was hated & kicked out by his relatives, he must've learnt something from it and was urged to do something to keep this new family together for his benefits.

As for Rudy's uneasiness this episode, are you sure it didn't come more from the fact that he was seen as a bully by a lot of people including by his beloved Norn? After all, Rudy angrily smacking Paul in the face was his true/real raw feelings for him and it was Norn that made him stop. It goes to show us that Rudy cares more for Norn than Paul.

And I'll say it again, I didn't say that Rudy has zero feelings towards his parents. But from what I see so far, his feelings is not enough to be considered real love/real caring for his current parents. I need more solid proofs which we might get in the future (or not).

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's the opposite. There should be a deeper different factor that led him to not care that much about his original parents. We didn't really get enough info on that though.

Eh, it's "glass half full or half empty"-kind of thing.

As I & Klashikari said, simply growing up with parents won't make the child love them. In Rudy's case, it's even more complex considering he has the mind & experience of a 40yo hikki-NEET.

[Frontier]

If I remember right, part of the reason Rudy tried to help Lillia was because she kept quite about his fetish for Roxy's panties.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Frontier

If I remember right, part of the reason Rudy tried to help Lillia was because she kept quite about his fetish for Roxy's panties.

That too. Nice reminder.

[BWTraveller]

I'd say he did legitimately care about her. Didn't see her as a parent just like he doesn't really see Zenith or Paul as his parents (after all, first time he saw them he thought of them as "youngsters"). That doesn't mean he doesn't care about them. He didn't want Zenith to be upset, and certainly didn't want someone who mattered to him to walk long distance in the middle of a frigid winter with a newborn.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I've seen some people think that Rudy brought up Sylphie immediately instead of Zenith because Zenith is a high-ranked adventurer and can take care of herself, but it did feel to me more like Sylphie was more of a priority than his parents because of the emotional disconnect.

Said emotional disconnect also made the reunion with Paul harder.

Also that, to his knowledge, Sylphie is still a weak girl who basically couldn't function without him.

[Tenzen12]

One of reasons why it hit Rudy so hard is because he expected Paul aknowledge his efforts and praise him. That's very parent _child thing.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

As I & Klashikari said, simply growing up with parents won't make the child love them. In Rudy's case, it's even more complex considering he has the mind & experience of a 40yo hikki-NEET.

Statistically that's what happens in the vast majority of cases, and that's why normally it makes more sense to ask why a child doesn't love their parents rather than why a child does love their parents.

A child loving their parents is the normality, a child not loving their parents is the abnormality and that means something went wrong.

Now there are two possibilities. Either there's something wrong with the child or there's something wrong with the parents.

We don't know in the case of our protagonist and his original parents which is true, but you seemed to assume that it was his fault, when there's really no reason to think that way unless one starts from assumption that he's scum and therefore if something is wrong it must be his fault.

As for the case of him and his new parents, we don't have any reason to think something went wrong between them (at least not until he was kicked out of the house, but Rudy didn't seem to have taken that badly), and so the assumption here should be that he cares about them, not the other way around, because you need a reason to explain the abnormality not a reason to explain the normality.

The only argument that can be made to provide a reason as to why the abnormality is true, is the fact that Rudy has been reincarnated and he doesn't have the mind of a child. However I don't think that really matters.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

One of reasons why it hit Rudy so hard is because he expected Paul aknowledge his efforts and praise him. That's very parent _child thing.

There are even deeper reasons In my opinion. Rudy has been living this new life as a way to redeem himself and his situation, a way to try again and live properly after messing up badly in his original world.

Part of what he wanted to achieve is a normal and sane relationship with his family. This is why he does care about Paul, Zenith, Norn and even Lilia and Aisha, because being in good terms with them is instrumental in giving him his newfound confidence of being able to live in a proper way.

What happened in the last episode has been particularly shocking to him because he found himself starting straight into the eyes of the ghost of his past life. And this was clearly shown in the episode by making a comparison between how people looked at him after he beat Paul and how people looked at him in the past. Norn looking at him that way, treating him like a stranger and an enemy also reminded him of how he was seen by his original brothers.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Statistically that's what happens in the vast majority of cases, and that's why normally it makes more sense to ask why a child doesn't love their parents rather than why a child does love their parents.

A child loving their parents is the normality, a child not loving their parents is the abnormality and that means something went wrong.

Now there are two possibilities. Either there's something wrong with the child or there's something wrong with the parents.

As for the case of him and his new parents, we don't have any reason to think something went wrong between them (at least not until he was kicked out of the house, but Rudy didn't seem to have taken that badly), and so the assumption here should be that he cares about them, not the other way around, because you need a reason to explain the abnormality not a reason to explain the normality.

The only argument that can be made to provide a reason as to why the abnormality is true, is the fact that Rudy has been reincarnated and he doesn't have the mind of a child. However I don't think that really matters.

If statistic is your bible and you deemed the minority as being "abnormality that needs to be explained" then how do you explain homosexuals who were raised to be straight by straight families? Are they also abnormality that needs to be explained?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We don't know in the case of our protagonist and his original parents which is true, but you seemed to assume that it was his fault, when there's really no reason to think that way unless one starts from assumption that he's scum and therefore if something is wrong it must be his fault.

There are a couple factors that I considered before making my assumption:

• Rudy was self-loathing of himself for his previous life but he never really blamed his parents. That is an indication that his parents might never done something extremely harmful to him.
• The fact that all the relatives were fuming at him during the funeral and climaxed when they finally kicked him outta the house with extreme prejudice clearly helps indicating that he was the troublemaker in the family. At the age of 40 to boot.