[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

His main complaint was that the Detective's Authority was being completely undermind, which is still happening here.

I assume that by Detective Authority you mean her reliable viewpoint (and super-duper observational powers).

Meta-Erika did not get to see End through Piece-Erika's eyes; she saw the game replayed exactly as we did (mostly from Battler's perspective). Since Piece-Erika does not narrate, even to Meta-Erika, Meta-Erika was never "tricked" by relying on Piece-Erika having a falsely reliable viewpoint. In other words, Piece-Erika's reliable viewpoint was not "undermined"; it simply was never expressed in the first place.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If you're arguing that Erika has never had access to her Piece's knowledge, observations, and narration, in what sense is it any different from there being a communication mechanic between Erika and the Gameboard that obfuscates information?

There is no such mechanic. There is only a lack of a special information-sharing mechanic between non-viewpoint Piece-Characters (Piece-Erika in EP5) and Meta-Characters that don't even exist as Meta-Characters yet (Meta-Erika in EP5, at least until the trial). All Meta-Erika gets to see is the replay- the same exact one that we and Meta-Battler got.

Originally Posted by battle22

guys in ep5 first twilight . didnt cousing faked death? but the red.. gosh i hate ep5. !!!!!!!!

The trick was that when those Reds were spoken it was 24:00 on October 5th, which leaves plenty of time for the cousins to die after they fake the First Twilight.

[Drifloon]

The trick was that when those Reds were spoken it was 24:00 on October 5th, which leaves plenty of time for the cousins to die after they fake the First Twilight.

Actually, there are red truths saying that the corpses are definitely and unmistakeably dead before that time, in particular the one made by Virgilia when she visits the game board. But it's never said that those corpses are what were seen by the witnesses in the cousins' room.

[AuraTwilight]

I assume that by Detective Authority you mean her reliable viewpoint (and super-duper observational powers).

Meta-Erika did not get to see End through Piece-Erika's eyes; she saw the game replayed exactly as we did (mostly from Battler's perspective). Since Piece-Erika does not narrate, even to Meta-Erika, Meta-Erika was never "tricked" by relying on Piece-Erika having a falsely reliable viewpoint. In other words, Piece-Erika's reliable viewpoint was not "undermined"; it simply was never expressed in the first place.

Then what is the meaningful difference from never having the authority in the first place? Erika can never act on it or utilize it in any meaningful way.

There is no such mechanic. There is only a lack of a special information-sharing mechanic between non-viewpoint Piece-Characters (Piece-Erika in EP5) and Meta-Characters that don't even exist as Meta-Characters yet (Meta-Erika in EP5, at least until the trial). All Meta-Erika gets to see is the replay- the same exact one that we and Meta-Battler got.

What about when MEta-Erika played EP5 the FIRST time? This is her second time through the board.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Then what is the meaningful difference from never having the authority in the first place? Erika can never act on it or utilize it in any meaningful way.

None, at least in the sense you are talking about. But my point was that the mechanics that lead to Erika's incorrect assumption are far simpler than they were in my earlier theory.

Nothing logically necessitates that Meta-Erika must be able to utilize "the authority" unless you assume that my premise- that Meta-Erika has no direct access to EP5 Piece-Erika's observations whatsoever- is wrong. Don't do that. It's circular reasoning and a complete waste of time.

If you want to attack my theory, and I'm sure that you do, then attack the validity of my premise. It has plenty of weak points you can have fun with.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What about when MEta-Erika played EP5 the FIRST time? This is her second time through the board.

Meta-Erika never Played End in any sense a first or second time; Bernkastel was the Player and, according to my premise, Meta-Erika never experienced End as Piece-Erika.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

None, at least in the sense you are talking about. But my point was that the mechanics that lead to Erika's incorrect assumption are far simpler than they were in my earlier theory.

Nothing logically necessitates that Meta-Erika must be able to utilize "the authority" unless you assume that my premise- that Meta-Erika has no direct access to EP5 Piece-Erika's observations whatsoever- is wrong. Don't do that. It's circular reasoning and a complete waste of time.

If you want to attack my theory, and I'm sure that you do, then attack the validity of my premise. It has plenty of weak points you can have fun with.



Meta-Erika never Played End in any sense a first or second time; Bernkastel was the Player and, according to my premise, Meta-Erika never experienced End as Piece-Erika.

I only really have one problem with this theory. If Erika never really made use of Detective's Authority, and it therefore had practically no impact on the game apart from letting Erika investigate all crime scenes (which she didn't even do, causing her downfall at the end), then why would Ryukishi have put it in EP5 in the first place?

If he put it in just to fake us out, that would be kind of silly...

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Toku

I only really have one problem with this theory. If Erika never really made use of Detective's Authority, and it therefore had practically no impact on the game apart from letting Erika investigate all crime scenes (which she didn't even do, causing her downfall at the end), then why would Ryukishi have put it in EP5 in the first place?

If he put it in just to fake us out, that would be kind of silly...

This is a difficult question to answer because I do not know exactly what you mean. Are you saying that it's strange how Piece-Erika chose not to use her Detective Authority abilities more? If that's the case then I don't think it's a very strongly related issue to my theory.

Anyway, as I think it's probably relevant to your concerns, it seems apparent to me that the ability to enforce the Decalogue also comes with Detective Authority. And the Decalogue certainly had impact on the game of EP5.

[AuraTwilight]

What he's saying is that Erika's reliable perspective never had impact. She both never got to make use of it, and NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT GETTING TO ACCESS HER PIECE'S INFORMATION. Why would she POSSIBLY let that sort of thing stand?

[Toku]

Well, that's not really what I was saying...

More like, since it never had an impact on the story, why did Ryukishi even bother to write it into the story? He might as well have left out Detective's Authority completely.

[GreyZone]

She could still use the Detective's Authority when she entered the cousins room and Battler tried to stop her.

[Keriaku]

Well adding in Detective's Authority added legitimacy to the Mystery side of things. And I like the idea that Beatrice's Gameboard is flexible to create tales with a detective or without a detective, just as different mystery stories have them or not.

And Aura, you never commented on my theory. I'm curious what you and Renall think of it. To me it doesn't undermine the Detective's Authority, but rather just shows that the Mystery side is on equal terms with the Fantasy for what they are capable of.

[AuraTwilight]

Honestly, Keriaku, I'll be frank; I seriously have a difficult time following most of your essays... ^_^;

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What he's saying is that Erika's reliable perspective never had impact. She both never got to make use of it, and NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT GETTING TO ACCESS HER PIECE'S INFORMATION. Why would she POSSIBLY let that sort of thing stand?

This assumes that Erika feels that she has a "right" to such information.

I am saying that she does not have that right nor does she have a reason to feel that she should have that right.

My premise is that there is no information-sharing mechanic between Piece-Erika and Meta-Erika at all (beyond what we see in-story as it is shown to Meta-Battler and ourselves). It's simply how the Meta-World<=>Game-Board relationship works. There is only one version of how the game went and we saw it; there is no Erika-perspective version of the game. No one was directly "regulating" what information went from Piece-Erika to Meta-Erika because there is nothing to regulate. No one is obstructing her. There is no one for Erika to complain to.

Originally Posted by Toku

Well, that's not really what I was saying...

More like, since it never had an impact on the story, why did Ryukishi even bother to write it into the story? He might as well have left out Detective's Authority completely.

Well, I see episode 5 as, among other things, a parody of the Mystery genre demonstrating how unrealistic the genre actually is. Detective Authority plays a part in that. I can't speak for everyone... but at least I found it funny.

But I agree that it's kind of weird that Detective Authority apparently only has, what?, two functions other than the Decalogue, one which was never used at all (the perfect autopsy ability) and the other only used to view a scribble on a wall (right to inspect crime scenes ability).

Although the potential usefulness of these abilities was part EP6's plot, even if they weren't used.

[AuraTwilight]

This assumes that Erika feels that she has a "right" to such information.

I am saying that she does not have that right nor does she have a reason to feel that she should have that right.

This contradicts everything we know about Erika.

Why would she not feel entitled to information she's told her character has access to? It's nonsense.

Wanderer is on a distinguished road

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What he's saying is that Erika's reliable perspective never had impact. She both never got to make use of it, and NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT GETTING TO ACCESS HER PIECE'S INFORMATION. Why would she POSSIBLY let that sort of thing stand?
This assumes that Erika feels that she has a "right" to such information.

I am saying that she does not have that right nor does she have a reason to feel that she should have that right.

My premise is that there is no information-sharing mechanic between Piece-Erika and Meta-Erika at all (beyond what we see in-story as it is shown to Meta-Battler and ourselves). It's simply how the Meta-World<=>Game-Board relationship works. There is only one version of how the game went and we saw it; there is no Erika-perspective version of the game. No one was directly "regulating" what information went from Piece-Erika to Meta-Erika because there is nothing to regulate. No one is obstructing her. There is no one for Erika to complain to.

So Detective's Authority doesn't exist. Got it.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Honestly, Keriaku, I'll be frank; I seriously have a difficult time following most of your essays... ^_^;

What didn't you understand? I'd gladly explain it to you, as it's a chance to further develop the theory as well. Because I seriously think this is the answer for that scene.

And for what Wanderer is saying, I'd say I mostly agree with the idea that Erika probably does not have an unseen perspective on things. The game boards seem to have a a single telling that everyone examines, and this is what is avaliable for reviewing by others, such as what Lion and Will do in EP7. Otherwise we could be asking questions such as if they watched from Erika's perspective or Battler's perspective for EP5.

Of course there is an 'underside' of the game board which is put together by the GM, but I wouldn't think of that as a different perspective but rather extra information that is hidden. It seems to be that there is only one single perspective to see for each game board.

[AuraTwilight]

What didn't you understand? I'd gladly explain it to you, as it's a chance to further develop the theory as well. Because I seriously think this is the answer for that scene.

I'd hate to insinuate "TL;DR", because it's not the case, but due to English not being my native language, plus some brain handicaps I have, I just couldn't mentally piece together such a large post. A summary would be nice.

And for what Wanderer is saying, I'd say I mostly agree with the idea that Erika probably does not have an unseen perspective on things. The game boards seem to have a a single telling that everyone examines, and this is what is avaliable for reviewing by others, such as what Lion and Will do in EP7. Otherwise we could be asking questions such as if they watched from Erika's perspective or Battler's perspective for EP5.

I disagree. EP6 Erika's ability to do things without the Gamemaster's (apparent) awareness indicates that Erika has full control and knowledge of her Piece's actions, as if she were in a Choose Your Own Adventure novel.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'd hate to insinuate "TL;DR", because it's not the case, but due to English not being my native language, plus some brain handicaps I have, I just couldn't mentally piece together such a large post. A summary would be nice.

Okay, cool. Hopefully I can help.
I'm gonna be adding in new elements to the theory as I write it out, and probably not catching everything I originally wrote, but I'll see if I can write up a concise form of the theory. (The concise theory is in quotes)

Here is a key part part of where the theory is coming from. The series of Umineko, and Beatrice's Gameboard, is about a battle of Mystery vs. Fantasy. Within each individual Epsiode, we follow two clashing sides in a battle. In each game we can focus on the Player's side (Mystery) or the Gamemaster's side (Fantasy).

But we, as observers have a 3rd option: to look at the battle as a whole, not limiting ourselves to either perspective. And I believe this is exactly what the invitations to each Episode are about.

You can see what I mean by rereading them again with this in mind.

Spoiler for EP1 Game Invitation:

Spoiler for EP2 Game Invitation:

Spoiler for EP3 Game Invitation:

Spoiler for EP4 Game Invitation:

I think it is clear from these that Beatrice's Gameboard exists as something beyond just the Fantasy vs. Mystery we follow through the series. To us and other observers, the gameboard is a meta-battle where we blend both Fantasy and Mystery to understand what happened. This is what we do, this is what Featherine and all the Theatergoing Witches did. This is why Featherine made such a big deal about 'stepping onto the stage'.

Once we establish this 3rd 'Meta' view, the Game Invitations make sense as addressin us directly, and not talking about Battler. It also puts into perspective how all the theatergoing witches percieve the battles. The EP5 parlor scene exists solely for people thinking from this perspective.

It is interesting to note that it is only from the Meta side that the Truth is actually the focus. The Mystery side just needs to destroy Fantasy. The Fantasy side just needs to exist. It is only from the Meta side that this scene would matter.

So here is a concise form of my theory:

Lamdbadelta is a witch observing the Gameboard with a Meta perspective. When she becomes the Gamemaster, she uses her understanding of how both the Mystery and the Fantasy come together to craft her tale.

Lambda puts both Kanon and Shannon in the parlor, using her ability to create fantasy. She know that it is something that is a crucial detail for understanding the Tale, but also that it won't get brought up in the Mystery vs. Fantasy battle. Though it is technically a Fantasy, it is not there as something for the Mystery side to engage with. It is a hint for those thinking from a Meta perspective.

Even though she is the detective, which is a Mystery construction, Erika sees this Fantasy because it has been set up in a way where her beliefs correspond to the magic being set up. Erika has no 'Anti-Magic Toxin' to destroy Kanon with.

This seems to be exactly what the EP5 Game Invitation is talking about.


The Game Invitation says we should be able to spot something with a clear perspective. And this thing can't be anything that is explained in the narrative, because then there wouldn't be any difficulty. I believe that by putting both Kanon and Shannon in this scene, Lambda is giving a direct hint to people that are trying to find the Truth. Us, other observers, or people like Battler. This is a scene to show everyone that neither side alone is enough. Even the detective can be fooled by the right kind of Fantasy. You have to understand from the Meta perspective Beatrice to actually see the truth of the Gameboard.

From a Meta perspective, alongside the events of the first 4 games, one is able to pick out that this might be a Fantasy. And by identifying that Kanon and Shannon appearing together is a Fantasy, you can quickly understand a lot more about the workings of the gameboard and the truth of the games.

It is from this meta perspective that people like Featherine, Will, and us have been able to understand Beatrice and her tale.

In a way, Shannon and Kanon is some of the most well protected magic through all the narratives we see. Since they are something 'allowed to exist' by so many, they are a very well-protected piece of Fantasy. Which is interesting, considering their relationship to Beatrice.

[AuraTwilight]

Alright, I think I understand, now. So in EP5, under this theory, do Kanon and Shannon legit have individual bodies, or what?

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Alright, I think I understand, now. So in EP5, under this theory, do Kanon and Shannon legit have individual bodies, or what?

Thinking about it in this way might be misleading.

It's rather that all of Rokkenjima exists in a nebulous form where the Fantasy exists solidly, but can easily be wiped away.

Kinzo exists until the Fantasy is destroyed. Kanon and Shannon both exists as there is nothing denying them. Like the battles with the Goats in EP8.

[AuraTwilight]

But what about the 'truth' within the box? Doesn't that lend weight to the non-magical side having a heavier existence than the Fantasy? After all, if things are genuinely mutable, than the red truth doesn't really mean anything.

[Keriaku]

It's not about which exists more. As the Gameboard stands, Fantasy can exist. It's true, if the Book of the Single truth was revealed, then Fantasy and Beatrice probably would have been destroyed forever. EP8 does make a big deal of learning the truth being a one-way street. And that's why it was so important to keep it hidden.

EDIT for thoughts:

Actually, instead of having the truth destroy all fantasy, I think it rather would collapse the infinite (endless) worlds into one single world. And if no fantasy appeared in that one single world, then Beatrice might as well not exist. The truth can never completely destroy the unknown that Fantasy exists in, but by revealing the truth, it'll all but eliminate it from Rokkenjima on that weekend.