[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Thinking too much about symbolism is never a good idea in my opinion, you'll always end up seeing more things than you are supposed to, because it's easy to see symbols in almost anything.

I remember someone quoting a sentence in umineko where one said that a terrible event shaved three years of his life. And that was pointed out as a foreshadowing of Yasu's age being reduced by three years.

But in reality that's just a common saying. The same exact sentence appears in Higurashi.

Well, that's the problem with analysing fiction, there's bound to be discussion about it. If everything was as clear as day there'd be no need to analyze. If such a sentence acually always was just that andd nothing more, there'd not even be any possibility to analyze it otherwise. Analyzing fiction is highly subjective...there is nothing like a "foolproof analysis".

I always like to try for a combined approach of what the author said he was heading towards and what I personally see in certain scenes. If an author like Ryûkishi mentions something like the pun within Win-ch(i)ester then it might be worth a try to look at similar puns and metaphors in his work.
But I still think it doesn't lead to the conclusion that there is only the conscious author who does controlled writing, there is also the subconscious level that maybe even the author, maybe nobody but one reader might be aware of.

When I was in school we had a session in our German course about Romanticist poems and we had a homework assignment to analyze one about flowers. Everybody was analyzing it considering love and the brevity of it ... I saw it as full of sexual metaphors (and my teacher later told me, there are both ways to look at it, because he was happy not everybody thought the same way).
That is one of the many reasons why I think that mystery fiction and especially the detective fiction branch had such a bad name for a while. Because everybody was trying to write controlled fiction where everything was a hint with exactly one meaning, a story where everything works towards the conclusion. The problem is, a story like that becomes dry and stale very quick unless the author is very witty.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@Haguruma

Isn't it possible that Ikuko's house is in one of the Izu islands? Why it has to be in the mainland?
Suppose it's in an island near Rokkenjima, then Ange and Amakusa just decided to got there before heading to Niijima. That seems pretty logical. After that they had to take a ferry to reach Niijima and I suppose every island has its own ferry station.

There are several small problems I have with that unless we are supposed to believe that the Hachijô residence is on a fictional island as well, which does not seem to be supported by the text.
1) They are shown to approach and leave Ikuko's house by car. Normally the ferries don't support vehicle transportation, so unless they rented a car for half a day only to get to the Hachijô residence and back, it's rather unlikely that they'd have a car at their disposal. Also most island are not even that big with even Ôshima's town not going deeper than a few kilometers into the island and the whole place only being about 92 km².
2) There is the long car drive together with Amakusa. Assuming that, going by pictures and how it is displayed, Eva's hospital and Okonogi's business are somehwere in central Tokyo the ride to the harbour where the ferry takes off is quite close.
3) I don't remember any ferry sequence or mention of a ferry before they got to Ikuko's house. Ange said that tommorrow they are supposed to take the ferry to Nijima and that they waited until the last moment to get any signal from Hachijô's editor. It seems strange to take a whole day worth on another island if they know they are being followed.
4) The only other island that would seem reasonable might have been Ôshima (there is Toshima as well, but it appears to be to small and only has one village without even a proper roadsystem). This of course might have been, as for example Jessica was said to go to school at a neighboring island and not on the mainland (though Nijima is more reasonable for that). But even on Ôshima they would have had to rent a car.

Many Japanese readers seem to assume that the Hachijô residence is in Shimoda, too. Though of course it's a matter of "likely" and not "surely".

Does anybody remember if there was direct mention where the Nanjô clinic was supposed to be? Was it on any of the island or still on mainland?
In EP7 it's implied that Kinzô went to another island to get Nanjô's help, though of course that could have been before his time as a working physician and he could have been stationed as an army doctor on a nearby island.

[Wanderer]

I thought it was on Niijima.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, that's the problem with analysing fiction, there's bound to be discussion about it. If everything was as clear as day there'd be no need to analyze. If such a sentence acually always was just that andd nothing more, there'd not even be any possibility to analyze it otherwise. Analyzing fiction is highly subjective...there is nothing like a "foolproof analysis".

I always like to try for a combined approach of what the author said he was heading towards and what I personally see in certain scenes. If an author like Ryûkishi mentions something like the pun within Win-ch(i)ester then it might be worth a try to look at similar puns and metaphors in his work.
But I still think it doesn't lead to the conclusion that there is only the conscious author who does controlled writing, there is also the subconscious level that maybe even the author, maybe nobody but one reader might be aware of.

When I was in school we had a session in our German course about Romanticist poems and we had a homework assignment to analyze one about flowers. Everybody was analyzing it considering love and the brevity of it ... I saw it as full of sexual metaphors (and my teacher later told me, there are both ways to look at it, because he was happy not everybody thought the same way).
That is one of the many reasons why I think that mystery fiction and especially the detective fiction branch had such a bad name for a while. Because everybody was trying to write controlled fiction where everything was a hint with exactly one meaning, a story where everything works towards the conclusion. The problem is, a story like that becomes dry and stale very quick unless the author is very witty.

Exactly what I think. Its good to play around with symbolism, it adds depth to the story even if its just for the reader and the author was completely oblivious to them.

Here is what I usually did in umineko. Scenes that felt "heavy" with needless descriptions or dialog probably hid something in its setting or events.

Just recollecting some of the things I remember being weird. Kyrie mentioning a more accurate translation to Kinzo's name, something like "Gold Warehouse" or "Where the gold is stored" gave me the idea that the adults where lead to the "Kinzo" and where bribed to take part in the game.

But thats not really symbolism, just one of the probable hints hidden in "Heavy" scenes. Probable symbolism is the staff given to Eva- Beatrice upon finding the gold. The staff is a symbol of authority, meaning that the position of head went from Beatrice to Eva. The problem with this is that Maria also has that same staff for some odd reason.

Another probable symbolic scene is Battler using his grandfathers cloak/mantle when he found out the truth. "Passing of the Mantle" is also a sign of handing down authority from one to another. We also see Battler doing an about face and start to propagate what Beatrice was IMO trying to do. Which is hide what actually happened in Rokkenjima. So that brings back the Eva-Beatrice scene and adds a little more depth into it, maybe she also inherited Beatrice's will and hid the truth.

Another one was the signing event in EP3, it felt like something out of a messed up wedding. Dont know if thats what he was trying to accomplish.

So I think there are more Jewish/Christian symbolism built into this story that I haven't noticed. Maybe thats another aspect this Umineko is more "western" than Higurashi

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I thought it was on Niijima.

As far as I know that's correct, both the Nanjo Clinic and Kumasawa's son's house are on Nijima and I believe Ange visits them and Kawabata's shop on foot.

It's the closest town of consequence to Rokkenjima, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why Kinzo would go somewhere even further away in his dinky little boat when he could go to the nearest populated island. I get the sense Nanjo didn't work for a hospital (if there even was a public hospital on the island at the time), and you're a lot less likely to find a private physician's clinic the smaller the city is.

[Jan-Poo]

I didn't say it's wrong to analyze a story, I said it's wrong to over-analyze a story. There is a difference. Clearly the boundary between what is "analyzing" and "over-analyzing" is blurred and subject to personal interpretations, but one should always keep in mind that a bundary exists and that it shouldn't be trespassed.


About Niijima I found an interesting video on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x32OwKOvHj0

An interesting fact is that there are no ambulances on Niijima, so Nanjo's clinic must be pretty small.

From what you can see from that video Niijima doesn't seem to be very populated, is there even a school there? If there is one it's probably something like the one in Hinamizawa.

Also interesting part at 23:50 "And I found a glass bottle, with a really old... cork. No letter inside."

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

From what you can see from that video Niijima doesn't seem to be very populated, is there even a school there? If there is one it's probably something like the one in Hinamizawa.

Nijima's 2009 population was 2700 people, so it's a very small town. It does have an airport, however, as well as a decent-sized small vessel seaport and it also has a radio navigation transmitter station, which means it's not exactly podunk, just not heavily-populated.

There is a high school on the island, and from Google Earth it looks like a very standard Japanese-style school. However, if that's the one Jessica (and Lion, in ep7) attend, I'm not sure it's much of an accomplishment to be president of the class. But if they go to school somewhere else (say, Shimoda), that's like a two hour boat ride one way. Hell of a commute, I can't imagine Jessica wouldn't just live in an apartment near Shimoda or wherever instead.

Oh and there's also this town of over 8000, but it's quite a ways out to sea.

[Jan-Poo]

Well Hinamizawa was said to have about 2000 inhabitants.

Jessica and Shannon definitely attended the school at Niijima. I can't really think that it could be a prestigious school. I think that if Jessica was born a male Natsuhi would have rather sent him to a good private school more fit for the successor of the head of the main family.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I didn't say it's wrong to analyze a story, I said it's wrong to over-analyze a story.

I didn't intend to say you were wrong, I just wanted to highlight the fact that there is no definite guide towards a good and a bad analysis. Once the author gives you a manual what individual things are supposed to allude to, it's no longer analysis it becomes mere paint by numbers. But unless you don't have those guidelines everybody is bound to mess up here or there in the eyes of somebody somewhere.

From what you can see from that video Niijima doesn't seem to be very populated, is there even a school there? If there is one it's probably something like the one in Hinamizawa.

Also interesting part at 23:50 "And I found a glass bottle, with a really old... cork. No letter inside."

Nijima is a proper town governed as a part of Tokyo, therefore it also provides proper facilities for it's inhabitants. Hinamizawa is a small mountain village that pretty much seems to govern itself and has distanced itself from the rest of society, they are also probably cut off for some parts of the winter.

Nijima provides three schools, an Elementary (新島小学校), a Jr. High (新島中学校) and a High School (新島高校). There also seemed to be an Elementary school in the northern village Wakagô which closed in 2008.
The Izu islands are not as underdeveloped as some might imagine, even in the 80's. The schools on Nijima were founded in the early postwar era (the middle school in '48 and the highschool in '49).

Originally Posted by Renall

Oh and there's also this town of over 8000, but it's quite a ways out to sea.

I considered Hachijôjima because of the name, but there are several reasons why I ruled it out. The first and foremost being that it is too far out to the sea, the sea route today taking between 11 hours from Tôkyô because of several stops in between, and that it'd be the stop after Nijima even if Rokkenjima was even further out to sea.
And it's rather unlikely that Rokkenjima would be that far out, because it's vegetation and climate doesn't appear tropical enough while Hachijôjima is often described as Japan's Hawaii.

[Renall]

Rokkenjima is described as heavily forested. It looks similar to Nijima in climate, which is also heavily forested. It also takes about 30 minutes by boat to get there, and the harbor in Nijima is on the west side of the island, so if Rokkenjima's off to the southeast somewhere you're probably eating up 3-5 minutes just getting around the southern tip of Nijima.

So it can't be very far from Nijima at all.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Rokkenjima is described as heavily forested. It looks similar to Nijima in climate, which is also heavily forested. It also takes about 30 minutes by boat to get there, and the harbor in Nijima is on the west side of the island, so if Rokkenjima's off to the southeast somewhere you're probably eating up 3-5 minutes just getting around the southern tip of Nijima.

So it can't be very far from Nijima at all.

This as well, thank you.
I totally forgot that there was a time span that Ryûkishi included.
So I'd say my placement of Rokkenjima shouldn't be that far off. It should be either to the direct southeast of Nijima or the west of Shikinejima...though I'd say it's more likely to be the first, as it would explain if both the bottle and Battler traveled in the direction of Shikinejima.

Also we know from the TIPs in I think EP6 that to honour the shrine Kinzô let it be cleaned once a year and that there were several appointments each year where the fishermen from Nijima and the sorrounding areas would come and pray at the shrine as it held a local deity (probably local folklore on a kami which helped fishermen). So it should be in the vicinity of Nijima to be considered effective.

[Jan-Poo]

30 minutes with a high speed boat. It used to be a lot more time before Kawabata changed ship, that happened after 1980 because Battler doesn't remember the travel by boat to be that "scary", also Asumu wouldn't have liked that either.

Now... what's the speed in knots that's required to make a boat jump that much?


Anyway Haguruma, if Ikuko's house really is in Shimoda then Rokkenjima is definitely northwest from Niijima and not south as shown in your map. I will explain why.

First off Kawabata calls the port on Kuwadorian side the "back" that means the main port is facing Niijima while Kuwadorian's port is facing the opposite side. Kawabata needed to circumnavigate the island to reach the "back".

Now we know that Battler escaped from the back with a small boat. Being small it probably didn't have many instruments and Battler had zero experience in navigation plus he was probably still confused from the tragedy. The most reasonable assumption is that he headed straight from the port without thinking too much about the direction. If he ended up in Shimoda, then the "back" was facing the mainland.

Any other solution would make the chance of him reaching shimoda decidedly more improbable.

[Wanderer]

I always thought the submarine port was different from the "back" port.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

30 minutes with a high speed boat. It used to be a lot more time before Kawabata changed ship, that happened after 1980 because Battler doesn't remember the travel by boat to be that "scary", also Asumu wouldn't have liked that either.

Now... what's the speed in knots that's required to make a boat jump that much?

A race-spec speedboat is going to be over 100 mph or so. Kawabata's boat is too large to be a racing boat. If it's REALLY fast, I'd guess 50-60 mph, which in metric... let's just be generous and say 100 kph. At full speed for half an hour (which I highly doubt), you're going to be 50 kilometers away (for us Americans, 31 miles).

So basically, if it's a straight shot full-speed run, which is unlikely, Rokkenjima will be 10-20km further out than Mikura Island is from the south coast of Nijima. Basically more than twice the distance from Nijima to Shimoda.

Something about this just doesn't seem quite right. I suspect I was severely overestimating the speed of Kawabata's boat.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I always thought the submarine port was different from the "back" port.

They are probably very close since the old base is on the kuwadorian side.

Originally Posted by Renall

A race-spec speedboat is going to be over 100 mph or so. Kawabata's boat is too large to be a racing boat. If it's REALLY fast, I'd guess 50-60 mph, which in metric... let's just be generous and say 100 kph. At full speed for half an hour (which I highly doubt), you're going to be 50 kilometers away (for us Americans, 31 miles).

So basically, if it's a straight shot full-speed run, which is unlikely, Rokkenjima will be 10-20km further out than Mikura Island is from the south coast of Nijima. Basically more than twice the distance from Nijima to Shimoda.

Something about this just doesn't seem quite right. I suspect I was severely overestimating the speed of Kawabata's boat.

Yeah... something isn't right.

[rogerpepitone]

;「何しろ、船長自慢の改造高速艇らしいぜ？@　だいぶいじってるらしく、@プロペラは高性能のが４基も付 いてて最高速度は４０ノットを超えるとか何とか自慢してたなー。@いつも自慢されるんで覚えちまったぜ。」 \
;＜朱志香
`"Anyway, it's the captain's pride and joy, and it's a kinda modded high-speed boat.`@` Seems he tinkers with big parts of it.`@` He was bragging about how he attached four-base high efficiency propellers to it so that he could break 40 knots or something like that.`@` I just remember how he's always bragging."`\

ld l,$GEO_WaraiA1,80

;「僕も毎年聞かされるんで覚えちゃったよ。@船長は昔、外国の漁船と速度比べをして負けて以来、スピード 改造に取り憑かれちゃったんだってさ。@その時の相手は漁船なのに３０ノット以上も出せたんだ ってね。」@
;＜譲治
`"Me too, I remember since we're told about it every year.`@` The captain says that since he lost a speed contest with a foreign fishing boat a long time ago, he became obsessed with modding.`@` He says that at the time, even though it was only in a fishing boat, his opponent could go at over 30 knots."`@

[Cao Ni Ma]

So not even 50mph when going full throttle.

[Jan-Poo]

40 knots are about 75 km\h or 46 mph

Supposing Kawabata travel that fast for 30 mins to reach Rokkenjima the distance should be about 37 km or 23 miles away from Niijima.

the distance from Niijima to Shimoda is about 27 miles or 43 km.
That still doesn't sound right...



The red circle represents the various points where Rokkenjima would be if the data I used so far were correct.

[ErenselTheJester]

Hey, I'm stuck on a dilemma. Now I'm going back a few pages, so bear with me.

You see, I've been going along with the idea that the Meta- World are reflections of what's happening with Battler in 1998 in regards to him trying to gain his memory back. And If that's true, then that'll explain the Meta- conversations in the EP1 tea party and after. However, EP2 posed a problem.

If what I just said is correct, then Battler's conversations with Beatrice, including the establishment of Red Truth, could be representations of Battler's conversations with Ikuko, which seperate them from the actual narrative of the story. However, Piece- Battler refers back to their conversations within the story, so I'm stuck trying to figure out whether Ikuko took the time to edit EP2 so that the Meta- conversations are a part of the story or I'm right and none of the meta- stuff is a part of the story including any referrences to them.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

If what I just said is correct, then Battler's conversations with Beatrice, including the establishment of Red Truth, could be representations of Battler's conversations with Ikuko, which seperate them from the actual narrative of the story. However, Piece- Battler refers back to their conversations within the story, so I'm stuck trying to figure out whether Ikuko took the time to edit EP2 so that the Meta- conversations are a part of the story or I'm right and none of the meta- stuff is a part of the story including any referrences to them.

It's a bit late in the night (or maybe I should say early in the morning?) so I can't remember well to which part of Ep 2 you're referring but sometimes meta Battler is sort of possessing piece Battler. Okay, that's not quite right but Ange in Ep 8 said she could either control piece Ange or let her move freely and in Ep 5 you can see piece Battler switching into alternate Meta Battler (or Fantasy Battler) when he saves Beato from the closed room.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's a bit late in the night (or maybe I should say early in the morning?) so I can't remember well to which part of Ep 2 you're referring but sometimes meta Battler is sort of possessing piece Battler. Okay, that's not quite right but Ange in Ep 8 said she could either control piece Ange or let her move freely and in Ep 5 you can see piece Battler switching into alternate Meta Battler (or Fantasy Battler) when he saves Beato from the closed room.

I understand that fully, but that's not what I'm asking.

I'm saying that if Battler possesses Piece- Battler is that: (1) part of the actual story, as in if we were reading it right from the paper, or (2) is it some sort of insert on Ikuko and Touya's part, like maybe Ikuko edited the story