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Old 2020-05-14, 06:39   Link #41
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0cean View Post
Those shows are targeted at kids between 6 and 11 years old. 12 years and older is the demographic of your usual Shounen shows. A good indicator for the age of the target audience is the age of the protagonist. But obviously the target audience isn't narrowed down to people that are exactly as old as the protagonist. So if the protagonist is a teenager, the target audience is 12-25 year olds or so. They're not french art movies, these shows are supposed to have mass appeal. And that's exactly what SAO managed and that's exactly what shows people cite as "good" rarely manage.
It seems you're confusing anime for general audience with anime marketed for otakus. What was SAO's timeslot again? SAO was clearly an anime made for otakus which can be distinguished by its immature fanservice, fetishistic tendency, harem-y nature and how sexually charged the anime is (outside of being an ecchi show or downright hentai). SAO has them in spades. SAO is a big hit in Japan mostly around the anime-fan circles. Average normies probably know SAO from ads instead of actually watching & liking the show. Otaku is a demographic of its own. Otaku harem shows are not something that kids of 5-15yo can watch freely in their livingroom surrounded by family members. Otaku-centric harem fanservice anime like SAO is something that you watch mostly privately or together with your fellow otaku circles (and otaku can be as old as 60yo!). Therefore, SAO (which indulges in various boobshots, loli fanservice, attempted rape and actual tentacle molestation) cannot be put in the same group as battle-shonen shows which are safe for family-viewing in Japan. They're different in nature. I think that's what Haak mostly meant with his original comment (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Also, don't confuse popularity with quality. Popularity can happen to the most random things ever. Doesn't mean it's good. I mean, remember the damn Twilight?
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Old 2020-05-14, 09:33   Link #42
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
[Anohana] also confirmed what I've generally thought about Mari Okada, the writer who conceived the story. She's no doubt prolific and has a good number of hits under her belt, but part of the reason for her considerable output was that, in the early days at least, she wrote from template and well-established tropes. In short, I found many of her stories trite, tiresome and predictable.
My two favorite Okada scripts are pretty far removed from most of her other work, the sci-fi idol outing AKB0048, and the strangely gothic Lupin III: Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna. I couldn't get into Anohana either.
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Old 2020-05-14, 13:40   Link #43
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I think that's what Haak mostly meant with his original comment (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).
To be honest, I was just being a bit of prick. XP

I don't actually disagree with the underlying spirit of 0cean's assertion with SAO but I guess I felt the need to point out that 0cean's assertion of being targeted towards 12 year olds, whilst technically true, was kinda misleading in the sense that a 12 year old would be on the very borderline of the target spectrum and not exactly an accurate representative.

What then followed was a rather predictable game of age classification. 0cean was thinking of 12-25 years old whilst everyone else was imagining "TV-Y7". I guess I just took issue because 0cean was trying to use the "12 year old" figure as an argument to deflect criticism but if he used a more accurate picture "a target demographic of 12-25 year olds" then he would have found his argument far less persuasive. Because on the opposite end of the spectrum if you were to say SAO was targeted towards 25 year olds, that would absolutely fail to shield it from the most "snobbish" criticisms (and would be equally misleading).

Really I actually get what 0cean was saying: Sword Art Online is basically quintessential teen-fic. Same goes for the majority of contemporary Japanese Light Novels including all the isekai web-novels. 0cean takes issue with the criticism because he feels it's inappropriate against a story that isn't trying to be "high-brow". I was just being deliberately obtuse. XP

On a side note (and we are straying off topic here), I do also feel the need to point out that there is good teen fic and bad teen fic. For example, I would also class Boogiepop & Others as teen fic but in terms of storytelling, depth and quality, I would put it in a completely different league to Sword Art Online.

Last edited by Haak; 2020-05-14 at 14:56.
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Old 2020-05-14, 21:18   Link #44
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be honest, I was just being a bit of prick. XP
Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't actually disagree with the underlying spirit of 0cean's assertion with SAO but I guess I felt the need to point out that 0cean's assertion of being targeted towards 12 year olds, whilst technically true, was kinda misleading in the sense that a 12 year old would be on the very borderline of the target spectrum and not exactly an accurate representative.

What then followed was a rather predictable game of age classification. 0cean was thinking of 12-25 years old whilst everyone else was imagining "TV-Y7". I guess I just took issue because 0cean was trying to use the "12 year old" figure as an argument to deflect criticism but if he used a more accurate picture "a target demographic of 12-25 year olds" then he would have found his argument far less persuasive. Because on the opposite end of the spectrum if you were to say SAO was targeted towards 25 year olds, that would absolutely fail to shield it from the most "snobbish" criticisms (and would be equally misleading).

Really I actually get what 0cean was saying: Sword Art Online is basically quintessential teen-fic. Same goes for the majority of contemporary Japanese Light Novels including all the isekai web-novels. 0cean takes issue with the criticism because he feels it's inappropriate against a story that isn't trying to be "high-brow". I was just being deliberately obtuse. XP
Yeah, my problem with 0cean's comment is that by saying a show is for
12yo kids, in Japan, the implication is that you're describing a show for Elementary School kids because 12yo is the peak age of that group. SAO is definitely not made for them and it cannot escape criticism of shitty story by saying that "they're fo kids". SAO obviously targets the otaku market (which usually older than 13-14yo) especially with it having an incestuous kinda-relationship which is there only to add more member to the MC's harem. That is so otaku right there.

And no, I don't think all otaku anime derived from light novels are bad. There are exceptions of course but there's also a lot of self-insert masturbatory stories in that medium. One of my favorite isekai stories is The Twelve Kingdoms and so far none of isekai anime from other LN adaptations can surpass it.
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Old 2020-05-15, 02:40   Link #45
rladls2121
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Wait SAO for 12 year olds?
People around age of 12 actually read Light Novels?
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Old 2020-05-15, 04:48   Link #46
0cean
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Haak has seen through me. I didn't intend to shield the show from all criticism, but it gets tiring to have people complain that anime that are essentially for a children/teen demographic aren't deep and multifaceted allegories for life, that they may try to see in other anime. On that note, back in the days it was very impressive how deep fans of Elfenlied thought the show was. I got the impression that back in those days Elfenlied was even more popular than SAO during it's peak, but maybe that was only around the places of the Internet I hung out. And Elfenlied pretty much ticks all the boxes that SAO did and was even heavier, with themes of not only incest, but child rape and unholy amounts of gore. Yet essentially Elfenlied and SAO have the same demographic. There's nothing that deep about Elfenlied, despite the fans going to hilarious lengths to prove otherwise. It did made for entertaining reads, though.

And I feel there are lots of people who are fans of that one show they really like and think of as different and deeper, when in reality, that's just because they happen to like that specific show.


To get back to the topic at hand, if you're unable to get into a show, it will not only be difficult to see the show as good, but it will also be difficult to view it as deep. The fans say it's deep, while people not being able to get into only feel it's pretentious. For example Heldensagen vom Kosmosinsel. Fans will go on about how good and deep it all is and all I see is badly written fanfic that elevates historical battles into space without adjusting to the fact that you'd have to fight completely different in space. One scene is so hilariously bad, where they treat their space ships as horses and one guy races enthusiastically ahead saying to his friends that they won't be able to catch up with him or something like this. But all of them have the same damn space ship. It's baffling how anyone can treat something written as badly as this as among the greatest anime of all time - but I've come to know many people just like that.

Maybe I'm also a victim of this and shows like Evangelion and Serial Experiment Lain ain't as deep as I like to think, either.
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Old 2020-05-15, 06:55   Link #47
TinyRedLeaf
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Story-telling is a conversation. That has always been the case since the beginning, when story-telling was literally an oral tradition. It's a conversation between the story-teller and her audience. It's also an internal conversation between the story-teller and her characters, who gradually take on a life of their own in her head.

And like with any conversation, we learn from it what we're pre-programmed to hear and absorb. We perceive events and sense-make through the lenses of our lived experience.

Which is to say, some stories will resonate with you more, simply because it chimes with the reality you've lived through and can relate more personally with.

I'm an optimist with regard to human progress, but a realist when it comes to the day-to-day drudgery that it'll take for any of us to get to the future we envision.

And that is most likely why I usually get very annoyed with escapist fiction, especially escapist fiction that is blatantly an exercise in wish-fulfilment. Sword Art Online falls into this category for me. I did enjoy its first season, however, because I went into it knowing full well what it was, and I wasn't expecting anything different. The second season followed the same formula, but unfortunately became even more blatant in indulging the fantasies of its target audience. And so, I abandoned the franchise and never went back.

My outlook on life in particular is probably also why I will never be able to get into Your Name. the way so many thousands of anime fans apparently have. The flaws in its story-telling are very apparent to me, but are glossed over by the effusive praise that people have heaped on the movie. Teens and young adults wanted a happy, feel-good summer blockbuster and, for the first time, Makoto Shinkai actually delivered something like that, so it's no surprise that they loved it.

His story-telling, I felt, suffered because of this approach. And I'm not the only one who noticed it. Esteemed movie-maker Hirokazu Kore-eda (Shoplifters, Our Little Sister) observed that "[Your Name.] was packed with the elements of a hit film...maybe too packed. I think it's about time films moved on from the 'time-travelling high-school girl' trope".

There was an attempt to reach for something deeper and more profound in Your Name., but it got lost in the attempt to please a popular audience, and I was left deeply disappointed, especially in light of what Makoto Shinkai achieved in 5 Centimetres Per Second. It is very ironic, to me, that while 5cm is definitely the inferior film in terms of technical quality, it stands out as being the superior story. 5cm was more real, more honest, and that resonated with me a lot more.

So, I felt vindicated to a certain degree that Weathering With You fetched the mixed response that it did with critics and casual viewers alike. The follow-up effort was Makoto Shinkai doubling-down on what he did with Your Name., and it achieved the expected result: Even bigger commercial success, but with the concurrent dilution in critical praise.

It's not the happy ending that is the problem. It's the bald attempt to reach for a happy ending that annoys me. And I do miss the "poet of heartbreaks" that Shinkai once was, because I felt he was a much more sincere story-teller at the time.

I find it hilarious that this very deeply critical opinion of mine so offended some forum members here that one of them even took to harassing me on my Twitter account (which I luckily do not use as very much more than as a newsfeed aggregator). Said culprit even went so far as to accuse me of spreading fake news!

But the underlying point is the same. We will never approach stories the same way. Our lived experiences are unique unto ourselves, and that's part of the magic of story-telling. You never really know in advance what kind of reaction you will get. Some audiences will love it, others will hate it.

The point is not to debate over such differences of opinion, but rather to acknowledge that the differences exist, and we trade notes on why that is the case.

And it would be great if this philosophy guides the spirit of discussion in this particular thread.
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Old 2020-05-15, 07:22   Link #48
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by 0cean View Post
Maybe I'm also a victim of this and shows like Evangelion and Serial Experiment Lain ain't as deep as I like to think, either.
As someone who likes Evangelion, even I acknowledge that it doesn't have the best writing. Many of the "deep" things in it were literally lifted from Freud almost wholesale. Evangelion is a good example of a not-so-well-written anime got elevated by great directing which, in visual medium, can go a long way. That's probably why I still like it so much to care.

If you're in the mood for listening a podcast, here's an interesting conversation about Eva between professional film & game critic Jonathan R. Lack & Sean Chapman:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2020-05-16, 11:38   Link #49
endarion88
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oh yeah i watched the first season of (technicaly first 2) of Sao and yeah just not for me, maybe liked like 3 episode out of the whole thing

i did like a lot gun gale online alternative tho
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Old 2020-05-16, 17:10   Link #50
RichardFromMarple
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While I enjoyed watching You Lie In April I didn't find it the classic a lot of anime fans make it out to me.

Maybe it was how a lot of the story was told in flashbacks and apart from the main 2-3 characters many other regulars seemed a bit flat personality wise.
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Old 2020-05-17, 23:22   Link #51
Johnny Dy
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Oh, someone here said Detective Conan! Oh yes, alongside Lupin, there's like some of the worse animations in anime I have ever the disgust to come across. Dunno how I forgot about them... Probably because they were never in any question to even want to get into, just horrible. And I don't mean just the animations, but in the slights and bits one gets from the main characters just by mistake, one gets just disgusting gestures and lamo behavior patterns altogether from them. Dreadful, just B.A.D.! I am one that has dealt with bad animation but if we have some solid people there, I can love it. Lupin and Conan for me are the EXACT definition of not solid, I don't even know how to elaborate it, I'm just filled with disgust when I look at them! Aaaaaaaaaaaand of course some people enjoy it... well, if Anpanman is the most successful anime in terms of cashing money (if that's true), I can only imagine what sort of people would watch this shit. No I can't. If you're between 6 and 12 I think Tom and Jerry and Road Runner should satisfy you plenty more. But you can't tell people what to watch, especially children, they're their own masters now. ^^'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also, don't confuse popularity with quality. Popularity can happen to the most random things ever. Doesn't mean it's good. I mean, remember the damn Twilight?
Agree with you there, but for some reason the Twilight characters didn't look like total retards aka Lupin, detective Conan and Anpanman characters. It's just not as bad, not even close. Just my opinion. Twilight was a success because of "cool kids" shit that works among youngsters, that we're fed up with. I get that. The other stuff I just mentioned, I don't get. Maybe Lupin, detective Conan and Anpanman were available when there was nothing else and children just watched them on starvation alone! I would get that... a little bit, but if it were me, I think that I would rather just get into literature from a young age!
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I would suggest that you save your time. I don't think anyone is going to be interested in your attempt at "debate" in this thread. At least, not if you're going to be so hostile and defensive about it.

This thread was clearly opened with the intention to create a safe space for forum members to list and explain why they can't "get into" the anime that "everyone seems to love". If you're going to attack contributors for doing just that, then what's the point of this thread?

I would respectfully urge you to reconsider your tone and attitude, and curb the vitriol. You're clearly not going to agree with many of the opinions here — but that is to be expected for a topic such as this.
Thanks for the heads up, I agree with you for the most part. That being said, luckily there's been no one who couldn't get into Claymore thus far (with the occasional argumentation that really yanks my chain), if you think I've jumped a bit out of my trousers now, wait till you see me go to The Moon (and back!? - if not to the exoplanets) if that ever happens. Let's just hope not. ^^' (I don't remember exactly how many times I've seen Claymore... 26 or was it 27 times!? I lost count... - You just don't wanna get into it with me, that's safe to assume.)
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At least, not if you're going to be so hostile and defensive about it.
For the better part I think I was trying to be funny while rising some good points, but for some reason nobody remembers that, just the hostile part. And it's a bit out of context, when you can't get into something, you should welcome opinions that tell you why you're wrong (because of course you're wrong). Didn't it ever happened to you in real life? Somebody says "let's do this" and you say "nah, I just can't get into that shit", I don't know how many "ok, I'll just leave it at that!" you got back from that, I honestly can't remember any.

@: as a conclusion:
1. yes, people here want to express their lack of trust for some anime they couldn't get into, it's their right. (Or our right, as I've done it too!)
2. they should know they don't know shit about those anime, just like I don't know shit about Samurai Champloo, Cowboy Beebop, Lupin, detective Conan, Anpanman or whatever else anime I just couldn't get into. Those who know stuff about them are those who did get into them, a lot. They will always know more!
3. points 1 and 2 are just fax, and we shouldn't try to punish anyone for being in either category, we should just have fun with it. That's what I feel anyway, hostile or otherwise, everything can be fixed if we raise a question for something that's bothering us. Cheers!
4. this is important: if you feel someone being hostile, just make fun of the situation - treat everything with humor, just as Ricky Gervais says, and Ur life's gonna benefit for it! (That's what I do! Others chose to bann me but I don't hold that against them. That's what they know thus far. - this reminds me, OMG only 3 days left of bann on bakabt forum! Yayks! I feel sorry for them already!)
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Last edited by Johnny Dy; 2020-05-18 at 00:34.
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Old 2020-05-30, 07:07   Link #52
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Basically the isekai genre in general for me. Edgy OP MCs, too much focus on the waifus (sex sells after all), authors trying too hard to be edgy, etc.

This is a huge part of why I haven't watched any new anime for the past 2 years outside of new seasons of older anime. Too many isekai titles with the same exact plot and type of characters and it's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

The only one I got into was Konosuba, but that's because it's basically a parody of the genre. Didn't get into the Re:Zero hype in its heyday because the setting seems too dark and everyone seems to only talk about Rem and Emilia.
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Old 2020-05-30, 14:49   Link #53
Sheba
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I just dont like Raildex. I find the entire "oooh Touma is so unlucky!!" to be unsufferable. Especially, when his lack of luck somehow boil down to conveniently walk into a girl who is in various state of undress. You want unlucky? Try the lancers in the Fate universe, Pedro in Excel Saga, Tolkien's Turin Turambar, Moorcock's Elric, or the Good Olde Oedipus.

Everything about the Raildex universe grates me in various ways, the glorified shonen fare, the unwanted harem, etc... And its sad knowing that its supposed to be one of the better battle highschool harem stories in the genre. But everything about it is unsufferable to me.
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Old 2020-05-31, 09:06   Link #54
SeijiSensei
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Tengan Toppan Gurren Lagann - I've tried a few times to watch this but never got past about six episodes. It's a bit surprising since Kill la Kill is one of my favorite shows from the past few years.
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Old 2020-06-05, 06:33   Link #55
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Anything over 60 episodes or 3 seasons/spin offs (looking at you Fate/Stay). Just to much hassle to get caught up unless I've been watching the show from there beginning
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Old 2020-06-05, 06:57   Link #56
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I just dont like Raildex. I find the entire "oooh Touma is so unlucky!!" to be unsufferable. Especially, when his lack of luck somehow boil down to conveniently walk into a girl who is in various state of undress. You want unlucky? Try the lancers in the Fate universe, Pedro in Excel Saga, Tolkien's Turin Turambar, Moorcock's Elric, or the Good Olde Oedipus.

Everything about the Raildex universe grates me in various ways, the glorified shonen fare, the unwanted harem, etc... And its sad knowing that its supposed to be one of the better battle highschool harem stories in the genre. But everything about it is unsufferable to me.
I like Railgun (the first season, haven't watched the second) but I can't stand Index and its main character either.
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Old 2020-06-05, 09:45   Link #57
Nostxlgia
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I remember looking for shounen recommendations a couple of years back and someone recommended that I should watch Buso Renkin, that was probably imo the worst thing I've attempted to watch ever, period.

Highschool DXD is another example of something I tried watching but just couldn't.
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Old 2020-06-09, 16:07   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I just dont like Raildex. I find the entire "oooh Touma is so unlucky!!" to be unsufferable. Especially, when his lack of luck somehow boil down to conveniently walk into a girl who is in various state of undress. You want unlucky? Try the lancers in the Fate universe, Pedro in Excel Saga, Tolkien's Turin Turambar, Moorcock's Elric, or the Good Olde Oedipus.

Everything about the Raildex universe grates me in various ways, the glorified shonen fare, the unwanted harem, etc... And its sad knowing that its supposed to be one of the better battle highschool harem stories in the genre. But everything about it is unsufferable to me.
I always thought it was more of a tongue in cheek thing; we were never meant to take his bad luck too seriously.

Railgun is awful though. I can't believe it keeps going.
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Old 2020-06-09, 23:48   Link #59
Johnny Dy
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Tengan Toppan Gurren Lagann - I've tried a few times to watch this but never got past about six episodes. It's a bit surprising since Kill la Kill is one of my favorite shows from the past few years.
And they have what in common? I happen to agree TTGL is overrated, I've seen it once, it's ok 8/10, but to call it one of the best or my favorite for God knows what reasons, maybe 2-3 super scenes at best? And the rest? MEDIOCRE! To quote that guy from Mad Max, the newest edition.

Kill la Kill is probably 8.5/10, same mark I give to Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood or Death Note, but it's a difference, because many shows I must do my utmost best to find that hard scrambled quality to rise them to an 8/10, TTGL feels like one of them, while the other 3 I just mentioned, it feels like I held them back with my 8.5/10. I can't pass them past an 8.5/10 just because there are better anime out there that I have to differentiate somehow in rankings with 9, 9.5 and 10/10 from them. Otherwise there's a big difference between 8 and 8.5.

People tend to give 10/10 to many shows 8 and above, I do get that, but for me, there's difference in quality between them, and I must rank them accordingly.


Note: Sorry, I confused Kill la Kill with Akame ga Kill, that was a superb anime. Haven't seen Kill la Kill yet. And I see there's a new Kill la Kill If born in 2019.
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Crime and punishment, an age old dilemma. Man has long sought a solution to societies ills. But at what point does the punishment itself... become a crime?

Sometimes it is an easy thing for a man to cry out for retribution, until he himself has walked in the foot steppes of those suffering the penalty.
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Old 2020-06-10, 15:34   Link #60
SeijiSensei
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Kill la Kill was made by the same scriptwriter and director as Gurren Lagann. They also worked together on the recent movie Promare.

And KlK is complete. I don't expect any further material for that show.
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