Suisei no Gargantia - generic discussion thread

[finallyanime]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

/snip

...hmmmmmmmmmmm

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

To me, though, the more interesting thing about this episode was those micro creatures that generate enough energy to send lightning up towards the skies. They seem to be important to keep the sea ice free and full of food.

Theory: Ledo's been thrown back in time, and he witnesses the ur-form of the Hideauze ("Hideous"). Dilemma: eliminate the life form before it can evolve and probably cause extinction of humans on Earth, or leave them be and know that this will a galaxy-wide terrible enemy of humanity. You're a soldier who used to follow orders, and suddenly you're the only one who has to face a decision like this. Sure helps you grow as a human, doesn't it. [Note that for this to work, he'd have to be thrown back into a time after most of humanity left earth, but before the enemy appeared. Not sure if this is possible. Not sure being thrown back in time is possible at all.]

I do wonder what those creatures are. Maybe they're just biologically similar and provide a clue as to what makes them tick?

If the time travel theory is possible, these creatures might not be the ur-form but the Hideauze in a reproductive state. Shortly before he fell into the wormhole, Ledo was attacked by a snail with its tentacles latched on to him. Those came off before he got sucked in but they were still also traveling. What if those parts fell through as well but further back in time and the cells started trying to regenerate. Hmmm .... generating power until it gains critical mass? Does a path to doom or symbiosis follow?

That's the pleasure of being early in the series, a lot of speculation is possible.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by garbage

But that's exactly my point! Ledo never had the chance to observe and be part of regular human society including conflicts between humans and optimum actions in resolving conflicts between them. he was trained and controlled from the very beginning to fight Hiddeuz and nothing more. Why then would one expect him to understand the societal implications of his actions? He was never trained as a police officer with a Maximum Tolerance mindset( not even regular police officers would have that in mind in a deadly hostage taking scenario, more so swat snipers), in fact i think that would be detrimental in his duties against the alien menace. That type of "resraint" is just not in his mind, at this point.

All he sees is :
Gargantian=Humans living on earth, the legendary home of humans, needs as a base until possible rescue.
Amy=possible first "ally" in a sense ,only one who "talked" to him, member of Gargantia, likes chamber
Pirates = ENEMY, ( he even asked Amy about that), neutralization of which would further his goal with the gargantians. AND Amy asked him personally.

So how was he trained to deal with enemies?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on what someone like Ledo "should" and shouldn't know, but Ledo as presented has shown both tactical and strategic thinking, so it's not as if he is some mindless grunt (though it begs the question of why he is not simply a mindless grunt).

Putting morality/proportionality aside and looking at Ledo's actions strictly through the goal he was trying to achieve (leverage with the Gargantians), a better course of action would be to use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve his objective of securing Bellows and driving off the pirates. Why? Because while Ledo understands the immediate tactical situation, he has no idea what larger relationship the pirates and the Gargantians have. The stronger Ledo's initial action, the more likely Ledo affects that larger relationship. And if his actions impact that relationship negatively, then he may have actually harmed his goal of achieving leverage with the Gargantians.

But again, from a storytelling perspective, Ledo's actions "work" better than simply going in and threatening the pirates. The Gargantians get to see a display of Chamber's power, it sets up an immediate conflict with the initial antagonists, and it probably also serves to divide the Gargantians about Ledo, adding conflict there.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Trajan

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on what someone like Ledo "should" and shouldn't know, but Ledo as presented has shown both tactical and strategic thinking, so it's not as if he is some mindless grunt (though it begs the question of why he is not simply a mindless grunt).

Putting morality/proportionality aside and looking at Ledo's actions strictly through the goal he was trying to achieve (leverage with the Gargantians), a better course of action would be to use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve his objective of securing Bellows and driving off the pirates. Why? Because while Ledo understands the immediate tactical situation, he has no idea what larger relationship the pirates and the Gargantians have. The stronger Ledo's initial action, the more likely Ledo affects that larger relationship. And if his actions impact that relationship negatively, then he may have actually harmed his goal of achieving leverage with the Gargantians.

But again, from a storytelling perspective, Ledo's actions "work" better than simply going in and threatening the pirates. The Gargantians get to see a display of Chamber's power, it sets up an immediate conflict with the initial antagonists, and it probably also serves to divide the Gargantians about Ledo, adding conflict there.

Ledo is tactical because he's been a trained soldier for all his life. We can assume his actions in episode 1 are because he's been trained for scenarios such as these. The way I see it is, in episode one he was just following his training for such a scenario, and in episode 2 he's just following another scenario from his training, rather than really thinking things through all that much.

[Meruru]

Wasn't really looking forward to this, but what a fantastic start!

Ledo is a much more intersting MC than the promo material made him appear.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

If the time travel theory is possible, these creatures might not be the ur-form but the Hideauze in a reproductive state. Shortly before he fell into the wormhole, Ledo was attacked by a snail with its tentacles latched on to him. Those came off before he got sucked in but they were still also traveling. What if those parts fell through as well but further back in time and the cells started trying to regenerate. Hmmm .... generating power until it gains critical mass? Does a path to doom or symbiosis follow?

That's the pleasure of being early in the series, a lot of speculation is possible.

Very interesting. Didn't think of reproductive states. In that case, couldn't we just do without the entire time-travel aspect? If they reproduce in water and do the salmon thing... Adults leave the planet accompanied by a blast of lightning, and they "rain" back down in some form. If they reproduce through mitosis and only later form "colonies"... Heh, pretty wild speculations there.

[lightbringer]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Heh, from the perspective of the Gargantians this is interesting:

Wtf was that? (We might have attacked that? Good god...)

It's safe to say that they will not try to attack him directly from this point on, having just witnessed his military might, although they might try something more sinister. He's got to eat and sleep, after all. And as another franchise succinctly put it, when facing this kind of fear, you can either submit to or try to destroy the source

But as most promotional material pretty much shows him all buddy buddy with the crew, I'm not really worried long-term.

[NaweG]

SO, any thoughts on the significance of Ledo burning the holes in the horn?

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Putting morality/proportionality aside and looking at Ledo's actions strictly through the goal he was trying to achieve (leverage with the Gargantians), a better course of action would be to use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve his objective of securing Bellows and driving off the pirates. Why? Because while Ledo understands the immediate tactical situation, he has no idea what larger relationship the pirates and the Gargantians have. The stronger Ledo's initial action, the more likely Ledo affects that larger relationship. And if his actions impact that relationship negatively, then he may have actually harmed his goal of achieving leverage with the Gargantians.

because first for most intents and purposes what he used is already the minimum force, Chamber isn't called an annihilation machine for nothing. He is constrained as a matter of fact because he is low on energy. Second that level of thinking is a big step above the basic thinking process of "grunts" as you called them,"thinking of the bigger picture"? and subtle implications regarding human interactions? wow that's leader level thinking already. and as xion said he most probably is just following his training scenarios when dealing with enemies.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

To me, though, the more interesting thing about this episode was those micro creatures that generate enough energy to send lightning up towards the skies. They seem to be important to keep the sea ice free and full of food.

Theory: Ledo's been thrown back in time, and he witnesses the ur-form of the Hideauze ("Hideous"). Dilemma: eliminate the life form before it can evolve and probably cause extinction of humans on Earth, or leave them be and know that this will a galaxy-wide terrible enemy of humanity. You're a soldier who used to follow orders, and suddenly you're the only one who has to face a decision like this. Sure helps you grow as a human, doesn't it. [Note that for this to work, he'd have to be thrown back into a time after most of humanity left earth, but before the enemy appeared. Not sure if this is possible. Not sure being thrown back in time is possible at all.]

well it's possible come to think of it the Hideauze Blossom fortress main attack looks like Lightning Bolts. Whoooooo....nice

Oh no IT'S Misaka Mikoto 's fault!!!!!! nooooooooooo!!!!

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Trajan

I agree that for the story, it was a good way to show Chamber's power to the Gargantians. However, Ledo made a rather poor choice by engaging and destroying the entire pirate force. The better choice would have been a display of force getting the pirates to back down without causing unnecessary damage/casualties (i.e., the way he acted with the Gargantians - the smart solution but perhaps boring to watch the same thing play out again).

Why is that the better choice? Because he has no idea about the existing situation between the pirates and the Gargantians. Perhaps they are engaged in a low-level conflict (the pirates looked to kill only a few Gargantians, and Bellows seemed to think the pirates would take their "booty" and leave without harming the others). Now however, Ledo has escalated the conflict and basically declared war on the pirates on Gargantia's behalf and without their permission. Will be interesting to see if the pirates demand the Gargantians turn Ledo over to them for his "unauthorized" actions, which leads to the inevitable debate where the cute little girl defends Ledo against the "evil" adults.


BTW, with Chamber being such an advanced AI, it raises the question of why it even needs a human pilot at all. But this series seems relatively shallow in its world-building, so best not to go down that rabbit hole . . .

The Pirates ONLY killed a few Gargantians. As if that was no big deal at all.

Those Gargantians undoubtedly have family on the mothership, and were only salvaging equipment from the sea. They were brutally attacked and murdered. What Ledo did, was perfectly acceptable considering even with his superior technology and weaponry, any attempt at subduing them other than what he did, could have caused more immediate casualties to the people he was in negotiation with.

The Pirates 100% got what was coming to them, and anyone who shows sympathy for them, gets a WTF look from me...

[Shalcker]

I don't understand why people see Gargantians as peaceful... Those automatic weapons they have aren't just for show. And they are always ready to respond to any alert in minutes. Pinion definitely had no qualms about just drowning Ledo and taking his Jumboro apart.

They just have limited resources so they have to be careful not to lose more then they might gain from direct confrontation.

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

The Pirates 100% got what was coming to them, and anyone who shows sympathy for them, gets a WTF look from me...

Actually they got sympathy from me... I mean, if they were just shot to shreds, I would be "looking" at their dead body, "HAHA YOU SUCKERS! YOU GOT SHREDDED! YOU GOT WHAT YOU JUST DESERVED!!"

However, they just... got vaporized with nothing left... don't you pity them? There's just nothing left to... insult...

[Om Nerabdator]

Originally Posted by Enternal

Actually they got sympathy from me... I mean, if they were just shot to shreds, I would be "looking" at their dead body, "HAHA YOU SUCKERS! YOU GOT SHREDDED! YOU GOT WHAT YOU JUST DESERVED!!"

However, they just... got vaporized with nothing left... don't you pity them? There's just nothing left to... insult...

well they did get turned into dust...and to make you happy bellows most likely inhaled some of them, so next time she..um relives herself they would....ummm this is getting kinda sick so im stopping myself before i lose a bit of my soul....

[agetreme]

Ledo is tactical because he's been a trained soldier for all his life. We can assume his actions in episode 1 are because he's been trained for scenarios such as these. The way I see it is, in episode one he was just following his training for such a scenario, and in episode 2 he's just following another scenario from his training, rather than really thinking things through all that much.

Yea, it is actually more efficient (solider, remember) compare to something like threatening the pirates. It is supposed to be an blitzkrieg tactic: wipe out enemies with overwhelming firepower. It is faster than threatening and waiting the pirates to go away.

If I didn't forget the objective is: save the hostages not negotiate with the pirates for the safety. So he choose the most efficient way to handle the problem: Wiping out the enemies before they even had the time to shoot the hostages.

SO, any thoughts on the significance of Ledo burning the holes in the horn?

He is making an ocarina of time?

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Enternal

However, they just... got vaporized with nothing left... don't you pity them? There's just nothing left to... insult...

Didn't pity them, but I was slightly unnerved at how they died and Chambers insane precision. It also makes you realize how screwed earth is here if Hideauze ever appeared considering this level of technology to lost them.

EDIT: Wait, Urobuchi is now a tag?

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Shalcker

I don't understand why people see Gargantians as peaceful... Those automatic weapons they have aren't just for show. And they are always ready to respond to any alert in minutes. Pinion definitely had no qualms about just drowning Ledo and taking his Jumboro apart.

They just have limited resources so they have to be careful not to lose more then they might gain from direct confrontation.

Because they ARE peaceful, at the very least far more than the pirates in this harsh world 1) they don't go around attacking other colonies like the pirates for their resources. 2) and Yes those automatic weapons aren't just for show , they're for protection, after all there are pirates roaming the seas. You wouldn't say that Police officers & SWAT teams are not peaceful would you?
3) you forgot the very basic premiss of floating cities like Gargantia in their world. It didn't just sprout overnight. Peaceful people with common goals came together ( rather than attacking each other) in their own boats/ ships , interconnected and are now moving together with the common goal of surviving. 4 ) and yes they have rules and even pinion defers to the decision of their elders & leaders.

I think you're equating non-Peacefulness with the grit & toughness required to live in their harsh world which shouldn't be the case.

[rickadams]

Once again, the "alien script" is a substitution code for English.

[duckroll]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

That sounds similar to the situation Moffat finds himself in with Doctor Who.

He doesn't write every episode but he is still heavily involved (and sometimes even does rewrites).

I am not discounting the director's contribution to the story but I don't think we should discount Urobuchi's role either, even if he doesn't have as large of a hand as his other works he probably still has a very large hand.

I'm not discounting his role, I'm only saying that considering Urobuchi himself has said this is going to be different from the sort of story he's usually associated with, along with the fact that many other people are involved in writing it, suggests strongly that it's not intended to represent the sort of stuff people tend to see in Urobuchi anime so far. Having many writers involved in a series can diversify the tone, and if it doesn't "feel" like the sort of scripts Urobuchi has written in the past, it's also because he's not writing most of the scripts.

If people are not aware of this, there might be false expectations or conclusions drawn. I'm just trying to better represent the nature of the series.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Trajan

...BTW, with Chamber being such an advanced AI, it raises the question of why it even needs a human pilot at all. But this series seems relatively shallow in its world-building, so best not to go down that rabbit hole...

I think you're setting too high a standard. This show's world-building so far seems as good as anything in anime to me. They may stumble as they fill in the blanks, but I find these worlds quite fascinating. They haven't loaded us with a huge freight of background, as a show like Crest of Stars did, but the world makes sense to me so far. The reaction to Red's exploit will be a chance for them to either stumble or soar.

Chamber needs a human pilot because he could go totally and logically berserk at any time, and the responsibility has to rest with a human. Asimov's laws of robotics may be coming into play. In this case, the responsible human is only 16 years old, but one gets the sense that education and even physical/mental maturation may be paced differently in his world: you quickly grow to a point where you can act as an adult, although even adults are treated a bit like children by the System.

As far as Red's use of excessive force, it would likely be quite logical to treat an "enemy" this way in Red's world. The clash of worlds in the next ep could be interesting.

I'm thinking we have not traveled in time, but only space -- however the distinction is a bit moot when you are thinking in relativistic terms and dealing with wormholes.

[grey_moon]

In regards to Red's use of force...

I don't think it was over use of force, my reasoning is because there is only one of him and if he tried to disarm so many targets there is still a chance of something going wrong. For example a pirate could have a hidden weapon and even if it means nothing to Red and Chamber, it could mean a life of a Gargantian.

When a SWAT team storms a hostage situation, they go in to kill all their targets in as short time as possible so it gives the hostile as little time to cause problems.