(L) Girls und Panzer

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

... An E-100? :P It's also possible (but the chance is small!) that an IS-3 or an ISU-152 could put a dent in the thing, or at the very least disable it. Another possible candidate is the T95.

Basically anything with more than a 105 mm gun has a chance to take the behemoth out.

If IS-3 and ISU-152 at behind Maus already, if not, their chance is small because Maus's 128mm can smoke them before they outrun Maus, while E-100 with enough strong armor and better speed for outrun Maus. T95 also has strong front armor, but it's 105mm is underpower and speed is just as same as Maus, hardly to outrun Maus, even more T95 is turretless, make it hardly to solo a Maus in clode range.

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

But really, you don't actually need to defeat the Maus. You just need to break contact, stay the fuck away, and kill the flag tank. Remember, it's a flag match, not annihilation.

How are they going to do that? I wonder. Maho’s tank is guarded by other Black Forest Tanks. Ooarai can’t go fight them in open. Their only hope is to stay and lure Black Forest to fight inside the urban area which there is MAUS running around.

Moreover, when Maho group arrives at the urban area, the battle will become even more difficult for Ooarai since they need to fight tanks that coming in from the outside of urban area and escaping MAUS inside the area at the same time. And what will happen if Maho decide to stick her tank with MAUS? Oarai need to do something with MAUS before Maho group come.

If they want to make their life easier somehow, they NEED to disable MAUS. (destroy its cannon or tracked it is enough)

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

... An E-100? :P It's also possible (but the chance is small!) that an IS-3 or an ISU-152 could put a dent in the thing, or at the very least disable it. Another possible candidate is the T95.

Basically anything with more than a 105 mm gun has a chance to take the behemoth out.

Any IS-3 or ISU-152 with HEAT shells can do the job, as would the 17-pounder w/ APDS (at 500 m) or the 90mm T15E2 w/ APCR on some Super Pershings (at 1000 m). T29 or T30 tanks could do so too. The bigger issue is who spots first.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Consider that in the hanger scene before the battle, Maho was looking over her tanks. That included five Panzer IIIs. They only brought one with them. The six Jadgpanzer IVs, the two Tigers (I and II) and the three Panthers seem to all have came along.

My guess is that they usually use Panzer IIIs in numbers with a Tiger and some Panthers, with maybe a few tank destroyers. The extra groups are either fresh or not skilled with their tanks. The threats they had would have been much worse for Panzer III crews.

They are skilled at repairing their tanks in the field though, as all the tanks tracked by the Hetzer (and other problems) were fixed by the end of the episode for the formation shot.

If you've ever had the chance to compare the insides of a Panzer III or IV w/ the Panther or Tigers, the layouts are pretty similar if not the same in order to facilitate crew familiarity when upgrading to new tanks. This would also be simplified further if the new vehicles have similar performance characteristics, so going from a Pz III to Panther would be relatively seemless compared to PzIII to Tiger.

[evil_twin]

Originally Posted by X207

true, but its unlikely given this series where no one can be minorly injured from tank battle. would there even be a weakness between the turret and body? the part under the main gun seems the best location though its probably well armoured. is the fuel tank in a bad location? ive yet to see eps 11-12, though tanks do carry fuel externally. if anything, id guess the external tank would be the weakness to stop the motor and smoke the interior out.

as far as this series goes for being a "safe" sport, namely no injuries, im suprised no one has been allowed very minor bodily harm.

Hell, I don't need 'em girls turned into burnt corpses - I thought more something along the lines of bunch of cuddly critters jumping out of said grenade, who apply tickling / licking action or some such. The idea is if you can't fight the tank, you fight its crew ...

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Marina2

How are they going to do that? I wonder. Maho’s tank is guarded by other Black Forest Tanks. Ooarai can’t go fight them in open. Their only hope is to stay and lure Black Forest to fight inside the urban area which there is MAUS running around.

Moreover, when Maho group arrives at the urban area, the battle will become even more difficult for Ooarai since they need to fight tanks that coming in from the outside of urban area and escaping MAUS inside the area at the same time. And what will happen if Maho decide to stick her tank with MAUS? Oarai need to do something with MAUS before Maho group come.

If they want to make their life easier somehow, they NEED to disable MAUS. (destroy its cannon or tracked it is enough)

The urban area seems very poorly suited to the Maus, though. Look how slowly it made that turn, and how its gun got hung up the first time it tried to rotate its turret. Frankly if Oarai hadn't been frozen in disbelief or whatever staring at it, they would all have gotten away right then. The thing is actually too big to maneuver on those streets. They can easily avoid it in the city. Yeah, anyone that does come across it while playing tag with the rest of Black Forest is going to be in for a world of hurt, but better to let it stay stuck in the tight confines of the city than to let it out into the open where there are nice long clear lines of fire. It's a deadly obstacle, but if they'll just stop acting like deer in the headlights and MOVE, it'll be trying to catch them on a battlefield that plays to their advantages and its weaknesses.

[Ithekro]

Both sides have lost the same number of tanks, but Miho can't afford an attrition fight. They either have to get the flag Tiger or they lose. There is no other option except disqualification.

Black Forest does have one tank that the Type 89 might be able to hurt. The Panzer III. And that is only a maybe...and point blank range. The rest of the Black Forest tanks? Not a chance in hell is that 57mm popgun doing anything but knocking at the door (could penetrate of 20 mm of armor at 500 m. I don't think Black Forest has any tanks there with less than 30 mm of armor at the thinnest part aside from maybe the top plate). I don't even know if it can track any of the other tanks.

[4Tran]

Delightful! This episode was tons of fun from beginning to the end. The action was good, and I liked how the whole thing was composed. This shot was particularly great:



This is the best show.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

The urban area seems very poorly suited to the Maus, though. Look how slowly it made that turn, and how its gun got hung up the first time it tried to rotate its turret. Frankly if Oarai hadn't been frozen in disbelief or whatever staring at it, they would all have gotten away right then. The thing is actually too big to maneuver on those streets.

Technically, the Maus is bad in any terrain. It's not actually (successfully) designed to be driven around. For all that late-war German tanks are horribly over-engineered vehicles that breakdown at the drop of a hat, they're all better designed than a Maus.

[rocket]

Wow. Mind BLOWN. I had high expectations and they were completely exceeded.

So...

1) I'm now convinced Ooarai's going to win. Why? Because Black Forest put out a Final Boss. Being out numbered and out gunned was one thing. Impossible odds demands epic victory.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Meta-wise, to ramp up the already significant levels of drama. As a previous post already noted, Ooarai's teams were already outnumbered AND outgunned, so adding an almost unstoppable monster like this (which just screams FINAL BOSS material) is just icing on an already deliciously tense cake.

In-universe, there are a lot of signs that Shiho's gone "all-in" in trying to prove that her youngest daughter is WRONG. Hence the late-war heavy TDs and tanks.

Yup. Ooarai has to win, Shiho's got to get her comeuppance, and the sisters have to be tearfully re-united. Gotta happen.

2) "Hetzer's gotta hetz" may be my favorite quote about this show. Seriously Turtle team awesome showing! Prez is def my first draft pick - so underrated! Also worth noting that the most tank-otakular moment of the entire series was them showing how much of a fucked up pain in the ass it is to load the gun on the Hetzer. Seriously mad props.

3) Black Forest seems to be characterized as inflexible, but Maho seems unfazed through it all. Junior crews un-experienced with their heavy tanks... quite possibly many of them are not used to lacking a turret either. All of which add up to reasons why Ooarai may still have a chance. Still Maho's battlefield choices are not unreasonable, so I wonder how much of the roster was mommy's idea.

4) So many moments of Ooarai awesome. Duck team's vain but valiant last stand. Hippo team shooting and scoring. Tiger team with the rolling repair and the stunt driving. Of course, Hetzer's gotta hetz... which does leave Rabbit team to be essential in the final inevitable victory.

[Ithekro]

Maybe Black Forest's tanks will run out of fuel before they can chase down Ooarai's tanks.

[sandhy88]

Is it allowed to hide a tank?
I did not see Maus at episode 10 and their tank already 20 when I counted it.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by jmc247

Spoiler:

Black Forest has enough tanks to make a full Panzerkeil formation (the Panzer formation Erwin referred to in episode 2) which they did at the end and that is even not counting two Black Forest tanks elsewhere including a freeking working Maus.

While it was a strong episode I did have an issue with the rules allowing for a team to hide its tanks elsewhere. If that was the case then Oarai should have done the same instead of placing all their tanks in an open field to start off with as it was pure dumb luck that the tank gamers managed to save the day in episode 10 by hitting the reverse at just the right time.

Though my bigger issue was Erwin as a tank commander proved super inept and worthless this issue. She is supposed to be the expert on WW2 of team Oarai and she lets her subordinates try to engage (rather then order a strategic retreat) against a tank that any German WW2 history buff even at the high school level should know a few basics about... that though never mass produced the Maus is a tank that is certainly very much impenetrable by the weapons they have on hand. I know what her name sake would be thinking if he was watching that while his favorite military song Panzerlied was playing.



As for team Oarai they no longer have the tanks on hand to win even resorting to guerrilla tactics short of getting a very lucky long range shot in that kills the flag tank or unless team Hippo is allowed by the rules to commandeer the Maus.

Yes, overall, their response to the Maus was somewhat inept (not quite as bad as KMM when the (spoiler) intermixed into their ranks though) - perhaps a mix of fear and awe slowing their response?

But then, in the "meta" sense, they were trying to establish Maus as something of a threat, even to people who can't tell a PzI from a Maus, and so they have to give it a chance despite its clumsiness.

If you've watched it, replay that scene in your head except with Oarai reacting fast and with optimal moves and imagine how stupid the Maus (I think the whole universe gets they have a Maus now so I'll skip spoiler tags) starts to look.

Besides, after making

Spoiler:

KMM a bunch of morons the whole episode

, I guess they felt that they had to give a little balance.

But then, Oarai

Spoiler:

only lost 1/4th of their heavy (for them) anti-tank firepower

, so if you think they had a chance before, it isn't all gone yet.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Of course, it fits with Shiho's philosophy of victory at all costs. It's also clear now that Black Forest was relying on their tanks, firepower advantages, and probably a few elites, to secure their wins, and they grew complacent. They're paying for that now.

As for that, I figure it was an overreaction to Pravda. Also, I still think Saunders has deeper funds - look at the logistics support they brought along. I suspect Black Forest drained their coffers to get that monstrosity.

Or, Saunders has more money, but KMM gets more special government support (so they won't get fancy extras like salon cars but might get money to buy tanks), being the "best" team to be "strengthened" at the national level.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

They are skilled at repairing their tanks in the field though, as all the tanks tracked by the Hetzer (and other problems) were fixed by the end of the episode for the formation shot.

Rapid tank repair seems to be a basic skill in Tankery

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Which is surprisingly big for a school club - Ooarai's Panzerkraft team has two other clubs crewing for them (Volleyball & Automobile), afterall. Then again, it does have a reputation as a Panzerkraft school.

Technically, Senshado is an elective, not a club, at least in Oarai and competing with not awfully savory alternatives like "flower-arrangement" - I personally still find it hard to believe they started out accumulating only 18 volunteers out of 9000 students in "Normal Department I" alone despite mega bribes and taking every advantage of the lazy (if you don't fill in the form, fill it in late or misfill it, you go to Senshado - you would think more than 18 people in 9000+ will do one of the three), with even WoT players apparently choosing something else.

In KMM, if you believe Miho in the special OVA preview, it is offered as a full-time vocational education option as the 機甲科 (kikouka, Armor Department).

Which makes KMM's performance even more lamentable. KMM supposedly has 100,000 people, most of which are students, some of which are taking full time courses ... and we get what we see.

Personally, I wonder if KMM is in almost as much danger as Oarai of being shut down. They are nominally getting more results (at least in Senshado), but 機甲科 can't be cheap if they use even simulators. Based on their performance, the quality of their 機甲科 alumni must have been dropping for years (and I bet users like the SDF and Senshado professional organizations would have been complaining) and it may be the fact they are still winning in the national Senshado matches that keeps them afloat at all.

With their loss last year, they are in dire straits. Shiho in essence begs for one last chance. Her supporters send her a Maus and other heavy equipment as a "parting kiss". They either win this time, or else...

Originally Posted by X207

true, but its unlikely given this series where no one can be minorly injured from tank battle. would there even be a weakness between the turret and body? the part under the main gun seems the best location though its probably well armoured. is the fuel tank in a bad location? ive yet to see eps 11-12, though tanks do carry fuel externally. if anything, id guess the external tank would be the weakness to stop the motor and smoke the interior out.

as far as this series goes for being a "safe" sport, namely no injuries, im suprised no one has been allowed very minor bodily harm.

I would think the weakness between turret and body would be filled with "carbon lining", but the computer should take it into account.

Originally Posted by Friday

Question
aren't they suppose to reveal all the tanks before the competition???
if so, Blackforest is cheating

Overall awesome episode

bring on the final (and sadly...) last episode

I get the vibe that the audience gets to know the identity and location of each and every tank on the big screen. Their enemy doesn't.

Originally Posted by Marina2

Moreover, when Maho group arrives at the urban area, the battle will become even more difficult for Ooarai since they need to fight tanks that coming in from the outside of urban area and escaping MAUS inside the area at the same time. And what will happen if Maho decide to stick her tank with MAUS? Oarai need to do something with MAUS before Maho group come.

In those narrow streets, Maus will have trouble traversing its turret, so its ability as a guard is reduced.

[Random Wanderer]

Also worth noting that the most tank-otakular moment of the entire series was them showing how much of a fucked up pain in the ass it is to load the gun on the Hetzer.

I was wondering about that. Are the rounds seriously on the opposite side of the gunner from the loader's seat? That seems like a horrible design.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I was wondering about that. Are the rounds seriously on the opposite side of the gunner from the loader's seat? That seems like a horrible design.

Note this:



It had one of the worst ergonomics of any WW2 armored fighting vehicle.

[Ithekro]

I was at best able to count 18 in Episode 10 with visual and verbal suggestions. Some of Miho's information was wrong which didn't help our counts. Plus some of the tanks we see in the hanger didn't come to the battle. Miho's words suggested 10 Panthers, a Tiger, and a Jadgepanther. We saw 1 Tiger I, 1 Tiger II, 5 Panzer IIIs, 6 Jadgpanzer IVs, and 3 Panthers in the hanger before the match. And during the openning and ambush, we saw three or four Panthers, two to three Jadgpanzer IVs, one Tiger I, one Tiger II, one JadgTiger, one Jadgpanther, and the Ferdinand.

And the preview showed us the second Tiger II.

As for hiding tanks...there is nothing in the rules we have been provided that says the teams have to tell the other side what they are using.

In fact that might have been the point of Yukari's infultration mission to Saunders....so they would have an idea what they were facing. They did not such raid on Black Forest using only Miho's knowledge of her previous year at that school for intel.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by sandhy88

Is it allowed to hide a tank?
I did not see Maus at episode 10 and their tank already 20 when I counted it.

Not actually, in ep 10, twe only saw a part of them not all. And there is a plothole between ep 10 and ep 11, at near end of ep 10, we saw Hetzer in the group when they got ambush from KMM, but at beginning of ep 11 when Oorai prepare smoke launcher, the Hetzer not there and already somewhere in brushes.

[Ithekro]

Again the final Count for Black Forest Peak's tanks is as follows

Spoiler for 20 total:

1 Tiger I
2 Tiger II
6 Panther
6 Jadgpanzer IV
1 Jadgpanther
1 Jadgtiger
1 Ferdinand
1 Panzer III
1 Maus

I'm not sure if Katyusha and Darjeeling were suprised by it showing up, or if they were not minding it since it was so far out of the way to begin with. As for the rest...most were sort of dumbfounded by it. Yukari was in her "Oh my God, Wow!" mode. Miho called retreat as soon as it was clear what it was and you ca see a few of her tanks were backing up before she called retreat (including her own).

Quite frankly the thing is so rare I doubt any of them had a clue what they were facing even if they knew what it was. Up til know the StuG III has been able to punch anything they've encountered and the Tiger (P)'s 88 should punch anything as far as they know. Only the Jadgtiger has given them problems. Then there is this THING.

[Infinite Zenith]

For lack of a better word, that was a fun episode to watch. I am expecting an Ooarai victory given that several events and exchanges in the episode have validated my opinion, especially with respect to Miho's adoption of hit-and-fade tactics.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

There may be some truth in Sume's supposition, as the way the Kuromorimine battle line reacted to having a hetzer park beside them doesn't fit with crews used to tanks like Bengal Tigers or Panthers. Rather they reacted like light tank crews, which is to say they scattered like scared chickens.

I didn't think I had to spell this out to you, but there is NEVER ANY truth in what Sumeragi has to say.

[Ithekro]

It is clear that Erika was going to shoot the Ooarai tanks in the river the only thing stopping her was a mix of covering fire, Hetzing, and some luck.

In fact a lot of Ooarai's saves were due to Hetzing and mechnical problems for late war German tanks. Repairs take time...time Miho could use to get places and to set up things. Though honestly the Black Forest tanks didn't need to stick together, though they didn't wait for other tanks to be repaired it seem...though they did wait to get back into formation. (they didn't wait for the Jadgpanther the first time)

[jmc247]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Technically, Senshado is an elective, not a club, at least in Oarai and competing with not awfully savory alternatives like "flower-arrangement" - I personally still find it hard to believe they started out accumulating only 18 volunteers out of 9000 students in "Normal Department I" alone despite mega bribes and taking every advantage of the lazy (if you don't fill in the form, fill it in late or misfill it, you go to Senshado - you would think more than 18 people in 9000+ will do one of the three), with even WoT players apparently choosing something else.

The bribes make it hard to pass off as well as how its viewed as sort of how football is in the USA at a national level in Japan in the GuP world. It would make more sense if there was more fear surrounding it, meaning more people die doing it, but that would mess with the underlying tone of the show.

[Ithekro]

Carbon coating and internal dampening fields