2012-11-13, 01:16 | Link #5341 | |
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If the character is more of a supporting character, then treat it like one. This is actually becomes very apparent after episode 34. For example, Quattro and Amuro also appear in Zeta. Even though the show spend quite a bit of time for them (and Quattro being a prominent figure for the series itself), there were never any doubt that Kamille was the star or main protagonist of the show. This is the problem with how they deal with Shinn. You can't help to feel like rooting for a lost cause whenever you see him fighting against Kira and co. (especially after he got Destiny) |
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2012-11-13, 01:35 | Link #5342 | |
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2012-11-13, 01:50 | Link #5343 | |
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2012-11-13, 02:36 | Link #5344 | ||
As I make you stop, think
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2012-11-13, 03:13 | Link #5345 | |
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For sure, I'll always blame it on the writing department for not making sure the authority figures above Shinn (in this case, Talia and Athrun) are not given the opportunity to scold the little guy as it should be. In any show involving military units, wars and battles, I always believe some people should be there to fulfill the position as commanding officer(s) because that's how a protagonist evolves into the desired result of a character after following advice from mentors. That's probably the part where the writing department failed in shaping Shinn's character and it was probably already too late when someone noticed it by the time Kira steps into the arena. After that, what are you going to do? I always believed Shinn should have gone through real hell as a combatant; that's also part of how his character would have been shaped differently by being able to see things with a different perspective. |
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2012-11-13, 10:21 | Link #5346 | |
Corrupted fool
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Also, something curious I notice is that Durandal appears to be the show's director. He wished to get the strongest mobile suit pilot, Kira Yamato, but got Shinn instead. He also wished to get one of the most popular personalities, Lacus Clyne, but got Meer instead. He does this to get people's attention and in the process changes parts of the war to make Shinn look like the hero who killed Stella rather than Kira. Who knows? Maybe I just played too much Metal Gear. Last edited by Mad Pierrot; 2012-11-13 at 10:24. Reason: wrong formatting |
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2012-11-13, 14:21 | Link #5347 | |
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Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
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False, Athrun was never the main character of Destiny. It was always Shinn. Athrun was meant to serve as his mentor ala Quattro to Kamille. When Destiny started he did act like a mentor but he seemed far too aggressive with Shinn while Quattro grew to like Kamille and wasn't rough with him at all after they got that out of their system. Quattro also knew how to get Kamille to reach his potential without yelling or trying to embarrass his protege and Quattro never once berated Kamille for taking down an enemy.
Athrun is only in the middle because he's the connection between the old Hero, Kira, and the new Hero, Shinn. That and he's the favorite. Durandal only wanted to use Lacus because of her popularity. Than he figured out that that with SCIENCE he can make a loyal fake Lacus thus he didn't need to risk working with the rebellious Lacus. As for Kira? Durandal could care less for Kira until he started screwing up his plans with his plot armor. As for the movies, yes. There were Athrun bias while the Series was Shinn and later Kira's perspectives with some Athrun while the movies were nearly all Athrun all the time. Quote:
Shinn was punished in the series but Durandal made sure that Shinn was never taken off the battlefield complete because of his potential, natural talent, and loyalty. It's why Durandal was quick to forgive Shinn no matter what but immediately jumped on the chance to try and kill Athrun once he had the evidence he needed to plant the former war hero as a genuine traitor once again. It was always Durandal's intention to manipulate the youthful, and still easily swayed, Shinn while Athrun(already hardened by war and treachery was always suspicious of everything). Hence why he spoiled him, told Shinn what he wanted to hear, gave him nice perks and benefits. It was smart of him since until Kira appeared Shinn was a complete monster on the battlefield and since he was loyal there was no risk at all with him unlike with Athrun. ZAFT also genuinely loved Shinn for his ridiculous accomplishments on the battlefield and Durandal made sure that Shinn's little outbursts from time to time never reached the public eye. Would have been hard to cover all that up had Shinn actually been punished and had he been punished it would have severely damaged the war effort, moral, and doomed the Minerva. |
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2012-11-13, 15:43 | Link #5348 | |
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Plot armor? You mean what Char used to survive at the end of every show? Heero and Setsuna are also users of that and Kamille in Zeta's remake. In fact, every anime protagonist uses that. |
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2012-11-13, 16:28 | Link #5349 | |
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The Destiny SE movies fixed the mess by focusing on Athrun from beginning to end. So yeah, the focus on Athrun was intentional there.
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2012-11-13, 17:06 | Link #5350 | ||
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What I mean is that the writing department didn't give a more serious try at showing Talia and/or Athrun making full use of the authority they have in the times when combat was nowhere on the horizon. Especially in Talia's case, I expected more of her as your typical no-nonsense commanding officer. I'd have paid a lot of money to see Talia and Athrun shouting out loud their discontent into Shinn's ears, and end up giving Shinn confinement time or tasks of cleaning up parts of the ship on his own as punishment. During that time when the violations were nowhere near what Shinn did with Stella, it was the law of the sea and nothing more. And by law of the sea, words about punishment usually don't come out of the ship. Anyway, enduring punishment should always be a good tool for any character to think again about past actions. Too bad the writers didn't think of that. |
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2012-11-13, 19:42 | Link #5351 |
Corrupted fool
Join Date: Nov 2012
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The more I read these comments the more interesting I find SEED Destiny. It reminds me to other series like Scryed, Vagabond, Basilisk, Naruto and Gankutsuou where the focus changes between main characters and they tend to clash between each other (in Scryed it's actually the opposite). It kind of helps to give a better point of view about war as while the first time I watched Stella's death I felt sad, I understood why is it that Kira had to kill her. The same with Shinn violently attacking Kira and destroying Freedom in revenge (curiously the first opening, "Ignited". already used the footage of Freedom vs Impulse).
Durandal ended being on of my favorite Gundam antagonists alongside Zechs when I learned about his backstory. Also, I was surprised to know that Durandal was one of the people behind the Ultimate Coordinator project in Destiny Astray. Now if only Sunrise explained why Kira, Rey, Rau and Mu had small Newtype abilites (those psychic powers that helped Kira learn Neo's true identity) I would be happier. |
2012-11-13, 21:02 | Link #5352 | |
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Also, those "Newtype abilities" in the CE timeline are referring to the "spatial awareness" capabilities that the La Flaga family has, allowing them to control the first generation DRAGOONs and Gunbarrels.
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2012-11-13, 22:27 | Link #5353 | |
he is a CHAR
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So, yes a homage but also apparently still spatial aware. Besides, the true extent of Newtype abilities in CE aren't really known. Prayer, another clone, from Astray has exhibited the most Newtype abilities, undeniably Newtype, not just DRAGOONS, telepathy among them but nobody else has shown these abilities. But really, Kira got everything. He's the ultimate coordinator, mastered SEED mode and has spatial awareness. What kind of monster did they create? (And only at 18 years old. Even Amuro had to wait till CCA to reach his prime.) |
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2012-11-13, 23:11 | Link #5354 |
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The second-generation DRAGOONs on the SFreedom and the Legend have a "quantum communications system", which allows pilots without or little spatial awareness (i.e., normal pilots) to use them properly.
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2012-11-13, 23:55 | Link #5355 | |
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Kira was a great pilot and Durandal obviously wanted him but he knew that Kira wouldn't see eye to eye with him and considering Kira's antics it was best that he never pursued it. Hence why when he had evidence of Athrun talking to Kira he didn't go ask Athrun to try and persuade Kira, he instead used that evidence later to persecute Athrun when he believed that Kira was no longer a factor. Thus taking out two of his greatest threats, Kira/Athrun and than later Lacus. Had they not been around than nothing would have stopped the Minerva from stomping out Logos quickly and Durandal to be in the prime position to enact the Destiny Plan. After all, by the time he pulled the trigger on Athrun he was confident in Shinn's loyalty and his ability to win the war(and he was right, the war would have ended at Orb had Team Kira not shown up).
Char's cockpit wasn't destroyed at the end of Zeta. While the Strike had the chair melted(meaning that Kira should have died from the heat alone than), and the Freedom was stabbed and completely destroyed with parts flying everywhere. Kira also survived an explosion to the face and his no-kill rule would have gotten anyone else killed but because of Kira's plot armor he never suffered any real consequences for not killing. His friends were also magically not in greater danger despite his no-kill rule. I would vastly prefer someone like Athrun or Shinn on my side, at least they aren't blinded by naive idealism and I know they wont leave the entire enemy mostly unscathed or give them a chance to return or to suicide on the ship. Quote:
That and Durandal didn't have all that much faith in Athrun compared to Shinn and I doubt Athrun had the authority to even punish Shinn severely or to take him off the battlefield. Only Talia really had that power and considering Shinn saved their asses multiple times already and is the designated pilot of the Impulse there really isn't much she could have done about him. Talia, after all, did not have the authority to give the Impulse to anyone else and it was far better leaving Shinn, a proven pilot for the Impulse(and popular with the crew since he saved them multiple times already), in the Impulse than to risk it in the hands of another who would have to quickly be adjusted to it(Such as Lunamaria not being good as Shinn in it and it took her awhile to adjust fully to it). Besides, Shinn did what was expected of him on the battlefield, his quirks were almost entirely off the battlefield and didn't really effect his piloting at that point. Talia was required by Durandal to report everything that was happening. Hence why she couldn't pursue any tougher punishments against Shinn or Rey. All Athrun could do is yell at Shinn and get away with putting his hands on Shinn and punching him and the such which is not allowed in the military and could have cost him his position right than and there if the abuse was pursued. As for Rey? His piloting skills may be high but he was never shown to be a greater pilot than Shinn in the series. Besides, he was there to serve as Durandal's eyes and ears as well and to keep Shinn loyal and on track. Leniency also went to Lunamaria since they could have prosecuted her due to her sister's betrayal but instead Durandal had those charges dismissed and assigned her the Impulse even though there was doubt of how loyal she could be if Athrun(the man she used to crush on) and her sister showed up again. |
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2012-11-14, 00:30 | Link #5356 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Rey was a better pilot than Shinn. At least initially. It was mentioned that his scores were higher than Shinn's and it was unusual that Durandal personally had Shinn assigned the Impulse instead (not directly stated, but heavily implied that Durandal, a geneticist knew Shinn had the SEED mode from his medical tests).
And in the first episode this is shown when Neo attacks them with his gunbarrels and Rey dodges perfectly while Shinn takes a minor hit. But yes Shinn eventually surpasses Rey. |
2012-11-14, 09:00 | Link #5358 |
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You need to rewatch Destiny. When her sister betrayed she was suspected of aiding her sister who was in turn aiding the "traitor" Athrun. They could have easily had her imprisoned for a time due to her association with her sister. Instead after just some questioning she was released and Durandal had the Impulse assigned to her.
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2012-11-14, 10:12 | Link #5359 | |
he is a CHAR
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Besides, the point is moot considering Newtype flashes are instant giveaway for spatial awareness. Now, actual full on Newtype is debatable but everybody that has Newtype flashes is at least spatial aware, especially if it occurs multiple times. It's pretty clear in that area. |
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2012-11-14, 18:28 | Link #5360 | |
Corrupted fool
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Also there was a scene in the original SEED series that confused me a lot until I remembered UC. Flay tried to shoot Rau in the middle of the dark but was confused that she stared at Rau and said "Father?!" It was apparently a reference to Zeta's last scene where people saw spirits when staring at Kamille. The confusing thing about the SEED factor and the special awareness is that they have never been the focused of the story other than that scene in which Kira wonders why he survived to Aegis' selfdestruction (in the chibi parody they show how the SEED factor works for the most random thing like tasting food). In Destiny, Kira also had the SEED factor while fighting Shinn and the Impulse actually didn't reach Freedom's cockpit as a second after that we see Kira unscatched and was not drowning when falling to the sea. The Archangel was saved since they did not interfere with that fight and just focused on escaping from the Minerva. Regarding Kira's special awareness, I think it was the result of the Ultimate Coordinator project since Kira never showed superior traits over other Coordinators other than his skills as pilot as in SEED he takes down most of ZAFT's pilots and in Destiny he disables lots of the mobile suits from the Earth Alliance and ZAFT in a single battle. Kira never learns to communicate with the dead or absorb the power from spirits as the director stated that Kira actually wasn't hearing Flay in the finale of SEED and he became unstable while fighting Rau after that. Regarding Kira's idealism, he actually went for the kill at least three times after gaining the Freedom but it was only when the enemy was a big menace like Rau, Stella and Durandal. Even all the pilots from Wing become pacifists in Endless Waltz as they avoid killing the pilot (although Heero somehow managed to avoid having Relena killed after he used all of Wing Zero's power in the last episode). If ZAFT actually accepted him as a colonel in the ending of Destiny Special Edition then I guess he is serious about fighting in future wars. But yeah, most of the complains I hear about Destiny is that it is supposed to be only about Shinn, but that's just following Zeta's pattern and become a cliche. SEED also ended nothing like the original Gundam and the protagonism was shared between Kira, Athrun and Cagalli. Last edited by Mad Pierrot; 2012-11-14 at 18:41. Reason: forgot |
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