[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.

Nobody declares Erika to be a detective of any sort until the very end where Erika introduces herself as "a detective" in red. They very much explicitly disclaim Erika having any detective authority in that episode, on multiple occasions. Battler leaves open the option of taking it, but Erika never does so.

There's no real way she could retroactively reclaim detective authority after committing murders anyway. Unless you're going to argue that she killed people and then declared herself a detective from that point on... and if you argue that, then all one would have to do is state that she didn't kill Kanon, which is an easy fix (suicide and/or personality suppression, either way Erika didn't cause it).

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Renall

Nobody declares Erika to be a detective of any sort until the very end where Erika introduces herself as "a detective" in red. They very much explicitly disclaim Erika having any detective authority in that episode, on multiple occasions. Battler leaves open the option of taking it, but Erika never does so.

There's no real way she could retroactively reclaim detective authority after committing murders anyway. Unless you're going to argue that she killed people and then declared herself a detective from that point on... and if you argue that, then all one would have to do is state that she didn't kill Kanon, which is an easy fix (suicide and/or personality suppression, either way Erika didn't cause it).

Okay, so Knox's 7th can't disprove that Erika shot Kanon. But similarly, my theory about the storm breaking the window can't be disproven right?

[qno2]

[Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.'] I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.
[Request: 'This refers to three people.'] I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Therefore, Kanon never left. "Shannon", if you to bother with all those reds regarding identity, can't leave either, since only Battler left.


Additionally, with your idea Battler could've left on his own without needing a "sacrifice".

Oh just imagine it, after all that trouble Battler left in actuality through the broken window after opening up the chain... and Kanon comes in with no Battler in sight. Oh being Shkanon is suffering. None of her sacrifices mean anything to anyone. In fact, those dearest to her trap her in a room with a homicidial maniac.

edit: Ah, thanks GoldenLand. Must've missed that one... not even "TrollBattler" is possible.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

It's true that the windows can't be "opened", but there's no red or blue text against them being "broken".

Impossible. It is not possible to escape via the windows of that room.

Red text from Ep6:
this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

[Renall]

Even if the windows were to break, the seals shouldn't (the seals probably don't even physically exist), so if someone left via a window it should be possible for Erika to say a seal was broken.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.

There was the Red Statement that "This was a closed room until the end.".That implies that something occurred that no longer made it a closed room scenario.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Renall

Even if the windows were to break, the seals shouldn't (the seals probably don't even physically exist), so if someone left via a window it should be possible for Erika to say a seal was broken.

Yep. Heck, we even have that in red.

Know that an unbroken seal proves that there are still none who have entered or exited.

It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.

Even if they were, Kanon could not have left through them, because...

(Likewise from ep 6)

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Yep. Heck, we even have that in red.







Even if they were, Kanon could not have left through them, because...
(Likewise from ep 6)

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

I may not know what the solution is, but I submit that Beatrice's puzzle to Kanon's disappearance can be found with a truth of Humans!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.

This is what people don't get about the seals: They do not prohibit anyone from entering or leaving. They just give notice to the person who set them that somebody did leave. In other words, if one of her seals were broken Erika has essentially the right to red-truth-level knowledge that the seal was broken. Had that happened, the Logic Error would not even exist, because Battler could just shrug, say, "alright, you got me on that one," and they'd move on to the next puzzle because that by itself doesn't prove anything.

The Logic Error is contingent upon Erika's seals not being broken and Battler's refusal to break them (he could've taken the tape off the chain or not reset the chain and just left, but he chose to agree that those were set). If anyone else broke the seals, it would defeat the purpose of both of their efforts. Kanon's body entered the room and didn't leave it, but Kanon did. There's only two ways a body can enter a room and the person not still be present there, really: if a person can count as something other than a body, or if presence requires being physically alive. Neither of these requires that Erika commit any sort of act on her part, although as has been noted she is perfectly capable of killing in this game if she wishes to, whether intentionally or accidentally.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I may not know what the solution is, but I submit that Beatrice's puzzle to Kanon's disappearance can be found with a truth of Humans!

That's the spirit!

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

There was the Red Statement that "This was a closed room until the end.".That implies that something occurred that no longer made it a closed room scenario.

I've got to pick you up on a detail from earlier, though. I disagree that the red you're referring to here implies that the room was no longer a closed room, but more importantly...this is the red you're talking about there:

The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.

That red wasn't for the guest room that Battler had been in, as you had been presenting it, but for the cousins' room. That's a really disingenuous way to present your argument, because if you knew enough of that red to quote it (even if you misquoted it slightly), you must have known that it didn't apply to the guest room. Are you arguing seriously here?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

That's the spirit!



I've got to pick you up on a detail from earlier, though. I disagree that the red you're referring to here implies that the room was no longer a closed room, but more importantly...this is the red you're talking about there:



That red wasn't for the guest room that Battler had been in, as you had been presenting it, but for the cousins' room. That's a really disingenuous way to present your argument, because if you knew enough of that red to quote it (even if you misquoted it slightly), you must have known that it didn't apply to the guest room. Are you arguing seriously here?

I'm arguing seriously. And I did misquote it. But I could also contend that it could also refer to the Cousins room. Because the seals are pretty much the same right?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But I could also contend that it could also refer to the Cousins room. Because the seals are pretty much the same right?

No. That's not even what you were arguing when you tried to use that red as evidence. You were attempting to make an argument about the status of a specific room, the guest room, as a closed room...using a red which made a guarantee about the closed room status of a specific, different room, the cousins' room. And presenting the red as if it had been about the guest room.

The reds are still not interchangeable in that manner. To pretend that they are would be both intellectually dishonest and absurd. I might as well argue that a hypothetical red saying Battler is dead also applies to Maria. They're both human beings, so they're pretty much the same, right? No, they're not.

Anyway, have you got any ideas which can explain how Kanon could have entered the room, but did not leave it, and yet he did not exist in the room?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

No. That's not even what you were arguing when you tried to use that red as evidence. You were attempting to make an argument about the status of a specific room, the guest room, as a closed room...using a red which made a guarantee about the closed room status of a specific, different room, the cousins' room. And presenting the red as if it had been about the guest room.

The reds are still not interchangeable in that manner. To pretend that they are would be both intellectually dishonest and absurd. I might as well argue that a hypothetical red saying Battler is dead also applies to Maria. They're both human beings, so they're pretty much the same, right? No, they're not.

Anyway, have you got any ideas which can explain how Kanon could have entered the room, but did not leave it, and yet he did not exist in the room?

I suggest the possibility that Lady Erika never did check that one Specific Area that she mentioned. Perhaps there's a fourth area in addition to the bedroom, bathroom and closet(like a living room for example). Kanon could have hidden in the living room.

I furthermore theorize that Knox's rules don't negate this, since Lady Erika herself acknowledged the existence of the room she didn't check.

[Drifloon]

This is all kind of silly, really, because obviously the intention is that the solution reveals something vital about Beatrice's heart, so it would be quite pointless for it to just be some random wordplay trick. But I suppose that this sort of thing can be an amusing intellectual exercise.

Either way, Beatrice responded to "Confirming definition. The inside of the guest room is divided into three sections: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet" with "I also recognize it as such".

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I suggest the possibility that Lady Erika never did check that one Specific Area that she mentioned. Perhaps there's a fourth area in addition to the bedroom, bathroom and closet(like a living room for example). Kanon could have hidden in the living room.

I agree with what Drifloon said. But also...we have the red that Kanon does not exist in the guest room.. Even if there were a living room in the guest room too, that red would apply to it, and Kanon could not exist there.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Let's start off by denying the commonly accepted truth that if Kanon was killed, that solves this riddle.

Even if Kanon is killed, his "corpse" should still be in the closet where Erika shot and killed him.

Blue Truth: Kanon entered the Guest Room and called to Battler so that he could escape. Kanon then escaped along with Battler and reset the chain. In other words, I present the argument that only Erika remained in the Guest room!

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Let's start off by denying the commonly accepted truth that if Kanon was killed, that solves this riddle.

Even if Kanon is killed, his "corpse" should still be in the closet where Erika shot and killed him.

Blue Truth: Kanon entered the Guest Room and called to Battler so that he could escape. Kanon then escaped along with Battler and reset the chain. In other words, I present the argument that only Erika remained in the Guest room!

Well, you've already seen these reds, but here they are again:

Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom. and... Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Well, you've already seen these reds, but here they are again:

Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom. and... Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

**Laughs to myself** Well, you know what they say. If at first you don't succeed, try again.

I present the possibility that it's not the fact that Kanon died that invalidates Kanon's existence. But what if Kanon was killed and removed from the room by a third person! In other words, Kanon never "left" by his own power but was removed via a third party influence.

In fact, he doesn't even have to be killed for this to work. He could've been knocked out and dragged out.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I present the possibility that it's not the fact that Kanon died that invalidates Kanon's existence. But what if Kanon was killed and removed from the room by a third person! In other words, Kanon never "left" by his own power but was removed via a third party influence.

In fact, he doesn't even have to be killed for this to work. He could've been knocked out and dragged out.

Knocked out and dragged out by whom? The only person who left the room was Battler.

In any case...we already have a definition of going in or out of the room. It doesn't include whether or not they left voluntarily.

[Request: 'The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'] I acknowledge it.

Also:

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

Kanon's body entered the room, but did not leave it, and yet Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I'll counter with the argument that Kanon's body is a False Corpse. As proclaimed in the 5th "fake murder" game. Because it's not a real body, Kanon doesn't exist in the Guest Room. Battler placed the corpse in the Closet after setting up the trap with the Shower and escaped.