2008-01-01, 03:52 | Link #1481 | |
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As for the rest... yes, when I said it was theatric, I was referring to the way they presented the drama, not that "theatre" is somehow a theme. If you ever go watch a musical on Broadway or wherever, this is somewhat similar -- it jumps from major scene to major scene, emphasizing each through music and symbolism (though of course, it's a different sort of symbolism than you get in theatre). You don't really get a deep dive into a given character, but enough so you can understand where they're coming from and follow along. In a musical, each number has to hit some sort of emotional note or strike a chord with the audience as it builds up towards the climax (because time is limited); the same sort of feeling happens here. So, anyway, that was what I meant by it anyway; it's "theatre-style melodrama" as opposed to typical anime-style. And I do believe it's a style, not a flaw, but that's why I said it's personal preference... |
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2008-01-01, 04:40 | Link #1482 |
Anime Hobbyist
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Well, the thing with Minori was that ef was basically the one thing that put them into bigtime with the first time they put in such a huge budget and arguably the first one to truly be successful. That's what I meant by 'upstart'. Not the most accurate to the meaning of the word, I guess.
I agree with the theatrical part though. Even with Shakespeare, it was BEYOND difficult to attract oneself towards the characters and their strange aloofness in the plays, but their theatrics and wordplay made them come alive and had them become considered the classics we know of them as. Just a different approach that's all. |
2008-01-01, 13:06 | Link #1483 | |||||||
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2008-01-02, 00:05 | Link #1485 |
One PUNCH!
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Finally got to watching episodes 11 & 12 and I totally agree with what's been said about them! This series gets a 10 out of 10 from me!!
After watching ep 12's end, I noticed something interesting: ef - the first tale game open: <--Launching a paper airplane ef anime end: <--Receiving a paper airplane Coincidence? |
2008-01-02, 02:00 | Link #1486 | ||||||
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I think that is why some people think ef should've been better in every way because its stark storytelling style is something rarely ever seen. It raised a lot of expectation due to the effort alone. And again, I think the door is WIDE open for Shaft on some sort of a spiritual followup to ef. For a first time effort, for them to come so close to making a classic of the ages (well, to me it is anyway), I think that's a rousing success. Quote:
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2008-01-02, 08:57 | Link #1488 | |||
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2008-01-02, 09:35 | Link #1489 | |||
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Mediocre to me is maybe... Happiness (scratch that, that show was just horrendous). If I had to put it, maybe ef was like an experiment or an appetizer for the full course to the full potential of Shaft. It was ambitious and whether it was hit and miss, to me the term 'mediocre' or 'average' just doesn't sound right to describe it. Beyond that, I'll have to agree to disagree that it was mediocre in any intrinsic level. |
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2008-01-02, 09:57 | Link #1490 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Chihiro was exciting in part because she was more than one character. She was the amnesiac at various stages of her process: from just had the accident, to simply accepting her strange life, to seeing the possibility of salvation, to despairing of salvation and so strong-willed that she could give up the possibility entirely, to desperately in love and ashamed of her weakness. Weak but strong. She really was a wounded god. I loved the one image of her peering around the door at Chihiro and Yu arguing: there was something almost malevolent in her eye, like some savage ignorant deity. Miyako had a beautifully contradictory nature: dependent and independent, aggressive, playful, despairing, hopeful, hating, loving, etc. In screenwriting, one technique for developing characters is apparently to start with contradictions, and I think that may be what minori did with her. She was as much a breath of fresh air for me as for Hiro. About the only scene that seemed odd to me was in the final episode when Miyako was happy to see the message from Kei. But I accepted that since time had passed. To me, this show was a great melodrama, told in a way that was spare but very strong. It neither had nor needed the time that a normal TV dorama would have to make its emotional strikes. And as others have said, the music was an important part of ef's technique. Real melo-drama ("melo" = "song" in ancient Greek). I have to add that I usually find it illegitimate when people say a show should have done this or that. It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with, rather than trying to appreciate it on its own terms. I'm not saying this is always true, just often.
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2008-01-02, 11:59 | Link #1491 |
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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Impressive how one man's dispute can spawn off so much discussion that everyone else is scared to come here
Wonder how much hell I can raise if I went over to haruhi forum and called it medicore XD (honest opinion is that it is way over hyped). Something to change the mood hmm... http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3...af4a59bwk9.jpg
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2008-01-02 at 12:48. Reason: Changed large in-line image to a link, to save bandwidth |
2008-01-02, 12:49 | Link #1492 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Age: 38
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...did u steal that bottle from my house...-_-;; coulda swore I had a bottle before new years =P, oh wait, who has alcohol left after new years ^^ lol!
I as well, sympathize with the characters. The ride of emotions thorough the anime was a good ride but could it have been a bit smooth? Yea, there was alot of things that just jumped off too much but looking at it in a full view, it was a good experience. |
2008-01-02, 12:59 | Link #1493 | ||
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2008-01-02, 19:37 | Link #1496 | |||
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To make long story short, I talked about how the show was exploring character interactions and worlds were, well, kind of boring, without building any tension, had nothing to do with the overall story. They argued that the show wasn't about epic but enjoying these little moments. But if you have a look at the first and third arc of 12 Kingdoms, they too spend time exploring characters and world, but they all lead upto the epic climax at the end. So then I go back to 'only if Seirei did this and this like 12 Kingdoms...' *edit: all arguments please post back to seirei thread pls~ Did I attempt to turn Seirei into something I was more familiar with (like 12 Kingdoms)? Well, according to you people but no, not in the slightest in my opinion. Try to listen to the things said about the anime and make points to argue back, without criticising posters like 'o this guy must not like new stuff, o this guy can't open up he can only link to past stuff he liked'. If you actually read what 4tran has said, he's criticisining the show's visual presentation and unempathic characters, not its new and bizarre way of telling a story that is of a totally unfarmiliar territory to him. I can see why fans of series aren't going to like statements like this and will try to counter it in some way but that's the kind of thing you have to accept in a forum. to put it bluntly, suck it up and make counter points. It's better than a thread full of 'zomg it was owsome' and horny pictures, in my sincere opinion. Last edited by gaguri; 2008-01-02 at 19:49. |
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2008-01-02, 23:31 | Link #1497 | |
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There's no point providing counter-arguments to subjective opinion. If one says "I would have liked the show better if it did this or that", another can just as easily say "Actually, I really *liked* that they did the other" -- and they'd both be right, in their own eyes at least. 4tran does indeed make a valid point -- he found the show to be mediocre because, in his eyes, it didn't properly develop the characters and thus the drama failed to appeal to him. But, on the flip side, I found the drama to be quite appealing (in spite of the thin prior character development), and the overall show to be quite exceptional for its genre. Would it have been even better if it had done more to 4tran's tastes? To him and those who hold the same values, assumably yes. To everyone else... who knows? If you liked it just fine the way it was, how are you supposed to see the appeal in changing it, especially when that change might have other consequences you can't predict? Even if you can concede that it's a perfectly valid point of view, that doesn't mean that you'll feel the same way. We can speculate forever and ever, but it won't change that some liked it the way it was, and some believe they would have liked it better some other way. This is why there's variety in life -- people have different tastes, and they're all fine. Really, the extent of our discussion in these circumstances can only be to help clarify one's point of view. Once it's clear what each other's thinking, there's no point in discussing further. This isn't something that can be "countered". It has nothing at all to do with "fans of the series not liking statements like this"; if you don't see the problem, you'll have no need for the "solution". So, if your discussion in the Seirei no Moribito thread carried this same flavour, I can see why it wouldn't have lead anywhere constructive. You can't pass subjective opinions and hypothetical scenarios as objective facts/arguments and expect an objective discussion in return. You need to also accept that other perfectly reasonable, intelligent people can see things in a totally different way, and there's nothing wrong with that or with them (it doesn't mean they're just "fanboys"). In short, no matter how insightful you think you are, that doesn't make your opinions fact -- and sometimes, we all just need to suck it up. And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion... |
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2008-01-02, 23:52 | Link #1498 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Age: 38
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It is what and how everyone sees the anime that makes everyone unique. Everyone has different tastes, even though some might share a similarity, overall everyone is different. I gotta agree with relentlessflame here, once you understand what the other person is trying to say, you either agree or disagree and should be end of it unless its something that is a "fact". When we start to go with "what ifs", we only end up with an infinite number of possibilities.
anyways, I just loved the scene when Renji looked so miserable when Chihiro forgot about him in the church when she collapsed...The way Renji acted was just so realistic ^^, <3 that part. |
2008-01-03, 00:51 | Link #1499 | ||||||||
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Thank you, gaguri, for covering my points for me.
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Miyako, on the other hand, I couldn't give a damn about. Quote:
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2008-01-03 at 01:48. Reason: Oops... I couldn't even get Renji's name straight. |
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2008-01-03, 01:06 | Link #1500 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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heh. If we're sharing favourite moments, I've got something of a weird one.
At the very start of the series, episode 1, Renji spends some time talking about how he'd always imagined himself to be a knight who fought valiently to save a princess. He's also looking at a career interest survey during that scene. A couple moments later, Renji speaks (as in, outside of a narrative voice) for the first time: "it seems I didn't make it. what should I do?" I'm not all too sure what he meant by that line, but the thought that struck me at the time was that Renji was saying he had just missed his chance in life. Like, I mean, his meaning, his purpose, what he was set on earth to do. That's what I thought he meant, so the way he said those lines was just profoundly funny to me. It was profound because of the careless conviction with which he said "it seems I didn't make it", like he somehow knew exactly what he was meant to do, and that he knew for certain that he had failed, missed his chance, with no alternate course forthcoming. It was funny when in response to what would be for me an immeasurable loss, he asked in a slightly whiny, gently distressed voice, to nobody in particular, "what should I do?". It was relaxing, refreshing, in a really personal way. mm, I just watched it again. Well, I guess I'm just sharing this moment with you guys. edit: well, since it seems I was a bit slow in connecting my 'favourite moment' to the post that mentioned them, I'll comment a bit on the discussion going on. I'm no connosoire of melodramas, so I really can't say anything about how the show worked in terms of the conventions and standards of that form. If I take 'melodrama' to mean 'emotion', though, then I can say I agree that not all the scenes, perhaps the most meaningful ones, resonated with me on that level. I guess I'll echo 4tran's descriptor 'empty' in that I understood that emotion on an intellectual level, and perhaps went against the spirit of melodrama by applying that intellectual understanding to the character, presuming it consistent with earlier characterization, to enhance my empathy with the character themself? By this I mean that in terms of melodramatic execution, I would call ef 'inconsistent' and perhaps generally 'ineffective'. But in terms of characterization and creating empathy for the characters (which I would describe as less about creating 'likable' characters and more about 'relatable' ones), ef performed strongly for me in several instances. Although I don't really buy into the happy ending hammered into thier personalities, for me ef's characters felt more real and believable than any other anime I can think of (and on this virtue, from my perspective blows Kyoani's Key adaptations out of the water) (although allegedly, according to other posters in this thread, my empathy is misplaced and contrary to the intention of ef's creators?). The breadth of my viewership is admittedly fairly limited (you've watched and ranked ef below 10 other fall 2007 anime? I couldn't even name 5) but I could not describe ef as anything like mediocre. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-01-03 at 02:07. |
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bishoujo, drama, romance, seinen, shaft |
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