AnimeSuki Forums

Leafsnail · 2011-03-18, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

also I refuse the claim that there was any setup from Battler's or Beatrice's side as long as a real evidence isn't shown.

Battler giving Erika exactly the right number of seals and a retroactive power? Battler agreeing to trap EVERYONE inside Erika's seals, even though his own internal narration said it was a bad idea? Battler saying that he was planting the seeds for a miracle, a miracle which would cause Beatrice to remember who she was, and later... having a miracle which caused Beatrice to remember who she was?

There's definitely plenty of stuff suggesting it. You can refuse to believe it nevertheless if you like, though.

Renall · 2011-03-18, 20:50

I'm not even sure what constitutes "real evidence" in a meta-world to begin with. I guess Ryukishi got us convinced enough of his lead's incompetence that we refuse to believe otherwise.

Kinda Columbo-y, eh?

naikou · 2011-03-18, 22:38

I like Genius Battler Theory, myself. It's very Kinzo-like.

cmos · 2011-03-19, 01:06

Lambda also likens his game style to poker rather than chess. She says that he relies on luck and hopes for a card change to turn it into something more useful.

Used Can · 2011-03-19, 01:48

As for the mystery part of Umineko. I think it depends on how you see it. Technically speaking, EPs 1-4 can be seen as 4 separate mystery novels all of which have a proper answer. Of course, whether the answer is acceptable is another thing. But, one way or the other, there is one, and the mysteries on those novels got solved.

EPs 5-8 seem to be a different thing. Notice the setting is rather different, since the stories play out differently, and these episodes are definitely more meta. These episodes were the ones that revealed (or, more clearly, gave hints) to reach the answers in the first four episodes. Yet, at the same time, they told us about the characters - as in, aside the mystery - and also about the supposed real events in Rokkenjima. In fact, if we go by EPs 7-8 we can technically say we've got enough information to tell what actually happened in the island. Of course, this case is no mystery at all, because even though we can find information about it in the mysteries (i.e. EPs 1-4) there were definitely no hints to reach the actual culprits and how the actual crime was pulled of.

So, I wouldn't say Umineko is a mystery novel, but the mysteries stories contained in it, definitely worked as such.

Jan-Poo · 2011-03-19, 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Battler giving Erika exactly the right number of seals and a retroactive power? Battler agreeing to trap EVERYONE inside Erika's seals, even though his own internal narration said it was a bad idea? Battler saying that he was planting the seeds for a miracle, a miracle which would cause Beatrice to remember who she was, and later... having a miracle which caused Beatrice to remember who she was?

There's definitely plenty of stuff suggesting it. You can refuse to believe it nevertheless if you like, though.

What about the fact that we are shown several scenes with Battler alone in the closed room filled with panic, terror and despair?

If the genius Battler theory was true then Battler would have never been in a real pinch and could have never made those thoughts.

There is absolutely no observer of those scenes apart from those outside the story. The genius Battler theory would imply that the sixth game is even worse than Heavy Rain.

Also there was absolutely no reason for Battler to not reveal that he planned it all along in the end, something that he never does, nor anyone anywhere does.

Used Can · 2011-03-19, 03:36

Well, the scene in the closed room isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with the Genius Battler theory, though. Battler's behaviour could be very well understood depending on how much time he spent in that place. Even if he got there in purpose, expecting to get a reaction from Beato so that she could be restored/awakened to her previous self, at some point he could easily have become frustrated, and no matter what his plan is, he started to lose it. That'd be part of the risk in his bet.

Judoh · 2011-03-19, 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What about the fact that we are shown several scenes with Battler alone in the closed room filled with panic, terror and despair?

"It's all going according keikaku ihihihihi! Now I just gotta wait for Beato to solve everything and... OH SHIT! Erika's gonna turn me into her mind slave to take over the game board!! GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE!! UUOOOOOOHHH!!! THIS PLAN WAS STUPID!!"

Also why are we talking about Genius Battler theory in the mystery thread...?

Renall · 2011-03-19, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Also why are we talking about Genius Battler theory in the mystery thread...?

No clue. To make lemons from lemonade, what are some good examples in mystery of detectives who appear to screw everything up right before they reveal their masterful solution? There are detectives who tend to act less intelligent than they are (Poirot, Columbo), but I don't know of a large number of instances in which the detective intentionally misleads everyone toward an incorrect solution as part of his plan to locate the correct one. One or two where a fact is made up/intentionally lied about to draw a correction from the culprit, which I guess is where I'm going with this.

Though there is Orient Express's "This is what happened, right everyone, wink wink?" But that was after he'd figured it all out, not a trick to get someone to reveal otherwise.

rogerpepitone · 2011-03-19, 12:20

Philo Vance in _The Benson Murder Case_, provides a case against a minor character, just to prove that evidence isn't everything. He also follows a false case in _The Scarab Murder Case_ as well.

naikou · 2011-03-19, 12:40

I don't think there's a very good mystery equivalent to what Battler did.

Maybe if the detective, like... convicted himself as the criminal so that he could buy some time, or something? And then somehow this is all part of a master plan to get his adorable female Watson to awaken to her true deductive powers, and simultaneously fall in love with him while rescuing him from jail?

brb, writing a mystery novel.

Sherringford · 2011-03-19, 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Philo Vance in _The Benson Murder Case_, provides a case against a minor character, just to prove that evidence isn't everything. He also follows a false case in _The Scarab Murder Case_ as well.

(In Benson)Vance made a case against literally every suspect just to prove he could before moving on to the culprit, which was hilarious in my opinion.

Spoiler:

Chron · 2011-03-19, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherringford

(In Benson)Vance made a case against literally every suspect just to prove he could before moving on to the culprit, which was hilarious in my opinion.

Spoiler:

Which is why it's art. Hilarious literary art. It teases the readers deductive process as a means of justifying Vance's psychological approach.

It's greatly done.

rogerpepitone · 2011-03-19, 18:07

Other examples: The Greek Coffin Mystery and Double, Double by Ellery Queen, also Death Turns the Tables by John Dickson Carr.

Chron · 2011-03-19, 18:09

...I hate that I have been unable to find any copies of any of those works...I guess I'll have to get a kindle or something and just buy them online.

LyricalAura · 2011-03-19, 18:21

I've had a hell of a time finding anything by Ellery Queen anywhere. There's a couple of Carr novels on Kindle, but not anything like the full list.

rogerpepitone · 2011-03-19, 18:35

Try watching ebay. There's a lot with a copy of Greek Coffin right now.

Sherringford · 2011-03-19, 19:06

And for Canadians, Chapters is great for finding old mystery books for a reasonable price. All used and sold by members rather than the actual store(of course) but the price is somewhat reasonable, even if the shipping kills it at times. Lots of Queen and Carr over there. If all fails, Amazon (usually) has some copies available even if at a rather terrible price.

Which is great for me because I've got absolutely no idea where my Queen books are, I might just have to buy some more.

Used Can · 2011-03-19, 21:26

Do you guys have any experience with Japanese mystery novels? My only experience is with Ranpo, and that comes down to only a few novels, since his most popular works have not been translated (really a pity). There's also an anime I saw, which is the adaptation of a book of the same name called Mōryō no Hako (I'd recommend anyone who hasn't watched to watch it).

Anyway, I really need more books from Queen. I've only read the Chinese Orange Mystery.
I'd also like to give Van Dine a try, since I've never read any of his works. Sadly, his books along with Queen's are rather difficult to find.

Sherringford · 2011-03-19, 21:40

I don't have much experience with Japanese mystery novels to be honest, although I'd like to change that.

Van Dine's works are available in free pdfs(legally) so if you want those, they are easy to find. They are also very cheap on kindle if you got one of those, all 12 novels for 7 or 8 dollars.

2011-03-18, 20:50	Link #82
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I'm not even sure what constitutes "real evidence" in a meta-world to begin with. I guess Ryukishi got us convinced enough of his lead's incompetence that we refuse to believe otherwise. Kinda Columbo-y, eh? __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2011-03-19, 01:48	Link #85
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	As for the mystery part of Umineko. I think it depends on how you see it. Technically speaking, EPs 1-4 can be seen as 4 separate mystery novels all of which have a proper answer. Of course, whether the answer is acceptable is another thing. But, one way or the other, there is one, and the mysteries on those novels got solved. EPs 5-8 seem to be a different thing. Notice the setting is rather different, since the stories play out differently, and these episodes are definitely more meta. These episodes were the ones that revealed (or, more clearly, gave hints) to reach the answers in the first four episodes. Yet, at the same time, they told us about the characters - as in, aside the mystery - and also about the supposed real events in Rokkenjima. In fact, if we go by EPs 7-8 we can technically say we've got enough information to tell what actually happened in the island. Of course, this case is no mystery at all, because even though we can find information about it in the mysteries (i.e. EPs 1-4) there were definitely no hints to reach the actual culprits and how the actual crime was pulled of. So, I wouldn't say Umineko is a mystery novel, but the mysteries stories contained in it, definitely worked as such. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2011-03-19, 03:36	Link #87
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Well, the scene in the closed room isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with the Genius Battler theory, though. Battler's behaviour could be very well understood depending on how much time he spent in that place. Even if he got there in purpose, expecting to get a reaction from Beato so that she could be restored/awakened to her previous self, at some point he could easily have become frustrated, and no matter what his plan is, he started to lose it. That'd be part of the risk in his bet. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2011-03-19, 12:20	Link #90
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Philo Vance in _The Benson Murder Case_, provides a case against a minor character, just to prove that evidence isn't everything. He also follows a false case in _The Scarab Murder Case_ as well. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress

2011-03-19, 18:07	Link #94
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Other examples: The Greek Coffin Mystery and Double, Double by Ellery Queen, also Death Turns the Tables by John Dickson Carr. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress

2011-03-18, 22:38	Link #83
naikou Slashy Slashy! Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: USA Age: 34	I like Genius Battler Theory, myself. It's very Kinzo-like.

2011-03-19, 01:06	Link #84
cmos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	Lambda also likens his game style to poker rather than chess. She says that he relies on luck and hopes for a card change to turn it into something more useful.

2011-03-19, 12:40	Link #91
naikou Slashy Slashy! Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: USA Age: 34	I don't think there's a very good mystery equivalent to what Battler did. Maybe if the detective, like... convicted himself as the criminal so that he could buy some time, or something? And then somehow this is all part of a master plan to get his adorable female Watson to awaken to her true deductive powers, and simultaneously fall in love with him while rescuing him from jail? brb, writing a mystery novel.

2011-03-19, 18:09	Link #95
Chron Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011	...I hate that I have been unable to find any copies of any of those works...I guess I'll have to get a kindle or something and just buy them online.

2011-03-19, 18:21	Link #96
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	I've had a hell of a time finding anything by Ellery Queen anywhere. There's a couple of Carr novels on Kindle, but not anything like the full list. __________________ "Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

2011-03-19, 18:35	Link #97
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Try watching ebay. There's a lot with a copy of Greek Coffin right now. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress

2011-03-19, 19:06	Link #98
Sherringford Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	And for Canadians, Chapters is great for finding old mystery books for a reasonable price. All used and sold by members rather than the actual store(of course) but the price is somewhat reasonable, even if the shipping kills it at times. Lots of Queen and Carr over there. If all fails, Amazon (usually) has some copies available even if at a rather terrible price. Which is great for me because I've got absolutely no idea where my Queen books are, I might just have to buy some more.

2011-03-19, 21:26	Link #99
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Do you guys have any experience with Japanese mystery novels? My only experience is with Ranpo, and that comes down to only a few novels, since his most popular works have not been translated (really a pity). There's also an anime I saw, which is the adaptation of a book of the same name called Mōryō no Hako (I'd recommend anyone who hasn't watched to watch it). Anyway, I really need more books from Queen. I've only read the Chinese Orange Mystery. I'd also like to give Van Dine a try, since I've never read any of his works. Sadly, his books along with Queen's are rather difficult to find. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2011-03-19, 21:40	Link #100
Sherringford Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	I don't have much experience with Japanese mystery novels to be honest, although I'd like to change that. Van Dine's works are available in free pdfs(legally) so if you want those, they are easy to find. They are also very cheap on kindle if you got one of those, all 12 novels for 7 or 8 dollars.