Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Gilgamesh is indeed the strongest charcater in FSN but in the nasuverse and against an Arcueid with her full capacity, Gil will probably lose.

Actually, Gilgamesh can beat Arcueid. Word of God.

[jeroz]

holy, a wall of Gilgamesh avatars in the previous page

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

A character that has the power to make the holy grail war a cakewalk is just f-ing stupid. It trivializes the very contest that we are supposed to be invested in watching.

now you understand where his arrogance came from? and why Tokiomi/Kirei said they pretty much won the war when he was summoned?

and as things turned out, it's still up in the air. Having the most OP servant doesn't guarantee you anything.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Actually, Gilgamesh can beat Arcueid. Word of God.

Arcueid with her full capacity (which has never been the case in Tsukihime). I don't think so...

[Ithekro]

But when would Arcueid ever be serious enough to care to defeat Gil?

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Thess

4. Rider was skewered with Noble Phantasms. He laughed off the pain and kept going. Here they all magically miss him except for two? It takes a lot of the weight of his courage.

I actually prefer how they did it in the anime, here, as it implies to the viewer that Rider was literally a hair's breadth away from victory, making his loss more poignant. If he had been fatally wounded by being turned into a pin cushion before almost managing to strike Gilgamesh in the head, then at most it would have resulted in a tie. Even though a lot of us knew the outcome going into this, emotionally, seeing Rider become so close to landing a blow, and living through the battle, resulted in a really effective Hope Spot.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Arcueid with her full capacity (which has never been the case in Tsukihime). I don't think so...

From what I've heard, Arcueid's backing from Gaia, and thus fighting power, is dependent upon the level of her opponent. But since Gilgamesh's power is largely taken from the use of his noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon, Gaia will only provide her with enough power to face Gilgamesh at his base, which supposedly won't be enough if he suddenly takes out Ea.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.

Well I understand if you don't like it but characters like Gil are there to awe people with their power and well... to curbstomp everyone else. It would be rather silly if one of the most powerful beings in the stories' universe starts losing to random people(cause in the grand scale of things Berserker - Lancelot is just another side character) aside from the main character.

[Touko]

Gilgamesh's purpose is supposed to be a un-traversable wall, a Killer of Heroes that demolishes all Servants.

The twist is that even Gilgamesh can be defeated by the Power of Love.

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I actually prefer how they did it in the anime, here, as it implies to the viewer that Rider was literally a hair's breadth away from victory, making his loss more poignant. If he had been fatally wounded by being turned into a pin cushion before almost managing to strike Gilgamesh in the head, then at most it would have resulted in a tie. Even though a lot of us knew the outcome going into this, emotionally, seeing Rider become so close to landing a blow, and living through the battle, resulted in a really effective Hope Spot.

Until you realize that Gilgamesh did not even move.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.

This is only really true if you're only interested in the action and not the story behind the action. This episode was pretty much all about the latter rather than former as has mostly been the case in the Nasuverse, especially Fate/Zero.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Touko

The twist is that even Gilgamesh can be defeated by the Power of Love.

But Gilgamesh is the power of love incarnate!

...Loving oneself counts for the power of love, right?

[Touko]

Originally Posted by GDB

But Gilgamesh is the power of love incarnate!

...Loving oneself counts for the power of love, right?

Well, he loved Enkidu, after that, there's no one worth loving... until he decided raping Sabre would be fun.

[Craxuan]

Originally Posted by Touko

Well, he loved Enkidu, after that, there's no one worth loving... until he decided raping Sabre would be fun.

This is literally one of the very rare sentence that I agree with you about.

[Paranoid Android]

I wish they added something to Rider's reality marble or anything to show the effects of 3 stacks of command spells. Sure Waver brought it up again, but in the actual fight, it seemed like Iskander wasn't 'buffed' by it at all. It's the same old tricks =(

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

I wish they added something to Rider's reality marble or anything to show the effects of 3 stacks of command spells. Sure Waver brought it up again, but in the actual fight, it seemed like Iskander wasn't 'buffed' by it at all. It's the same old tricks =(

It's because the Command Spells actually made no difference against Gilgamesh.

The King is just that unfair.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Touko

Until you realize that Gilgamesh can't even move.

Fixed it for you. Read up about the Gate of Babylon, he can't move to use it. He has to stand still to fire it (his prototype version, on the other hand, can use it as he moves).

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I actually prefer how they did it in the anime, here, as it implies to the viewer that Rider was literally a hair's breadth away from victory, making his loss more poignant. If he had been fatally wounded by being turned into a pin cushion before almost managing to strike Gilgamesh in the head, then at most it would have resulted in a tie. Even though a lot of us knew the outcome going into this, emotionally, seeing Rider become so close to landing a blow, and living through the battle, resulted in a really effective Hope Spot.

I thought that it was obvious Gilgamesh would have died if Rider hadn't been chained.

But so would have Rider died too, since he was grievously wounded.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Thess

I thought that it was obvious Gilgamesh would have died if Rider hadn't been chained.

But so would have Rider died too, since he was grievously wounded.

Yep; that's what I was getting at. While being hit multiple times in several vital areas would have resulted in his death, regardless of whether he had managed to hit Gil or not, the manner in which the anime did it made it seem as if he actually had a high chance of getting out of the situation alive, which made it all the more poignant, for me.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Yep; that's what I was getting at. While being hit multiple times in several vital areas would have resulted in his death, regardless of whether he had managed to hit Gil or not, the manner in which the anime did it made it seem as if he actually had a high chance of getting out of the situation alive, which made it all the more poignant, for me.

I suppose. I felt it was more poignant for him to fight skewered. It was GARer?

Oh, in case fans missed it. Gilgamesh did go all out. Stated in text:

The only thing dwelling in those red eyes gazing at the magnificence was complete blood-colored joy. It was a feeling beyond the bounds of mundanity, known only to the king who had completely exhausted all the pleasures of this world.
In truth, Archer was pleased.
He was tired of how he would be invited till the end of time, repeatedly, to farces that were battles in name only. And now, he had finally obtained an opponent he could recognize as an 'enemy'.
A challenge from that Rider was worth using his full strength to gain supremacy.

Anime didn't really make the surging void from Ea's power clear, although it was great overall to show it is anti-world. Good enough. They forgot that Rider's men were riding too, but I guess that they couldn't get enough budget for their horses?

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Thess

Fixed it for you. Read up about the Gate of Babylon, he can't move to use it. He has to stand still to fire it (his prototype version, on the other hand, can use it as he moves).



I thought that it was obvious Gilgamesh would have died if Rider hadn't been chained.

But so would have Rider died too, since he was grievously wounded.

That's fanon, dude.

Spoiler:

Gilgamesh CAN move firing GoB. Have another read at UBW route. He was beating down Shirou while firing GoB.

[mAc Chaos]

I think he can't move when he first opens it, aka when he's using that key thing.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

I think he can't move when he first opens it, aka when he's using that key thing.

You see that once or twice.

Most of the time, it is finger snap, followed by a hail of swords. The "can't move" thing is just some Japanese dude's speculation.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah it was speculation. There's no indication GoB can't be fired while moving. In fact, the Jet Fighter versus Ancient Babylonian UFO fight pretty much indicates that GoB can be fired while moving.


Also, the presumption that an almighty character is automatically uninteresting is quite a logical fallacy. There are certainly many people who find Gilgamesh and Saber interesting (I certainly do). It's easy to dismiss any character depth just like it's easy to dismiss any plot as "simplistic" by reducing it to a couple of glib lines so simply saying "super characters are uninteresting" isn't going to cut it.

That whole concept seems to be a pretty modern affectation for that matter. "Super" characters have captivated audiences throughout history. It's an artificial concept that they can't be interesting because they can't be related to.