Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[equinox822]

A mastermind of Lelouch's caliber appearing out of nowhere would be somewhat absurd. Suppose a character like that exists or is going to be created for R3, where the hell was he during the whole crisis?

They'll make it work somehow, but it would still be way too convenient. (Then again, Code Geass is all about those)

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by npal

So, in hopes of getting over Lelouch, you create a replica, only starting more on the evil side? The comparison won't just be unavoidable, the new character will majorly fail for being a copy.

except this is the villain of the story
not villain protagonist

[bladeofdarkness]

Spoiler for meet J-the new villain:

the main villan of this piece is someone who will be called J (i really dont care what his name is, its not importent)
in fact its very possible that J is in fact a woman (could work better on some levels)
J is someone who while very much like lelouch in many ways (intelect and ability to read people's motives and intentions) and he can read the nature of a person and his actions very easliy
his true face is also kept in the dark and never revealed to those who he uses for his goals

however J is not a large ham (read: dramatic guy) like lelouch is but rather works from shadows using either messengers or electronic communication to run his operation (a classic chessmaster)
J is also not someone who seeks to make friends or allies but rather seeks to gain power and influance for himself and only himself
a big part of his motives seem to be from the fact that he wants to prove himself beyond the level of even emperor lelouch himself

J's life was mostly an ordinery one before lelouch came to power in britannia
having been of common born son of a noble father and his mistress J has always held a deep dislikement for the nobility and as such felt absolutly overjoyed when lelouch started to take away their position and power
J started to view emperor lelouch as his own hero and wished to learn more of what such a man could make the world into
but unlike most of the world felt when lelouch betreyed the whole world J did not see this as a horrible act of treachry and corruption but rather saw it in much the same way as diethard saw him once
he had always known that the illustion of "the emperor of justice" was a mask and lelouch had mearly revealed himself to be what J had always known him to be
a man who seeks to take the world in his hand and re-make it into a much better place and J viewed the fibble attampets of the UFN to stop him simply standing in the way of progress
he watched with awe as lelouch went on to defeat the UFN and conquer the entire world (the first man in history to actually unite the world), and while the world crumbled and shook in fear J instead felt that the change that would follow would serve to change it into the place it should be (thinking that lelouch would continue to make the world an even better place
but then all of a sudden lelouch was killed off by zero just when he was finally done with the war and was in a postion to start re-shaping the world
the world had gone right back to the boring place it had once been and J felt cheated out of a chance to see something that onkly happens once every thousend years

his anger at zero for what he had denied the world led to him seek and learn all that he could about the masked vigilanty trying to learn his weakness so that he can make him pay for what he had denied the world
learning about his history and past exploits as well as his repeated battles in the past against Suzaku Kururugi "the Knight of Zero"
the man who would one day go on to help emperor lelouch gain power before unfortunetly dying in battle against Zero's bodyguard
had he not died he would no doubt have been able to protect the emperor
and then one day he stumbeled across an interesting rumer
the rumer was that at some point in the past right before he was declared dead by the OOBK (no doubt to go into hiding so he'll be in a position to attack emperor lelouch when he wouldnt expect it) there was some kinda disterbence in the OOBK ranks
the rumer was that zero was confronted by some of his top brass and was accused of some crimes which were not made public
the rumer also claimed that the whole thing had been video taped by diethard reid (a man who served as zero's media guy)
and that reid had left a copy of the tape in the possetion of an old friend of his (who ever) since he had planed to use it in a movie he had been working on (a movie that follows zeros story)
after a few weeks J had tracked down the tape in britannia hoping to use what was on it against zero in order to destroy him
but what he had stumbled across was something very different from what he had imagined it would be
the tape had shown zero about to be killed by his members of his own group
they had acussed him of using them as pawn and menipulating them with something they had called geass (giving J a reason to try and learn more about it) zero was being defended by a woman J had recognized to be his bodyguard (kouzuki...something or other) who was trying to get the others to back down and let him explain himself with no use
there was a moment where she had asked zero something in too low a tone for J to make out and then
jackpot
zero started laughing like a maniac and removed his mask revealing himself to be none other then emperor lelouch himself
J was shocked
after having spent weeks in anger and seeking revenge it had turned out that the man he wanted to destroy and the man he wanted to avange were one and the same (but how?)
lelouch started telling the members of the OOBK that they were fools to take so long to figure it out for themselves
he also made it a point to tell his bodyguard she was his best tool which resulted in her walking away from him (J figured he had beileved this to be his end and would want to at least spit in the faces of those who fools who had turned on him, but still couldnt figure out about the girl)
then a giant KMF that J knew to be the shinkiro dropped out right between lelouch and the woman and blocked the shots aimed at lelouch
there was a call of screen to shoot the shinkiro as well while the red headed woman was crying something out (he couldnt make it out since there was noise, shouting and what sounded like something mechanical moving)
and then something very strange happend
all the mess and noise suddenly stopped and the red headed woman had completely stopped moving (J belived this to be the end of the tape until he saw that the shinkiro had kept moving and had picked lelouch up and carried him away off screen (without anyone saying or doing anything) and after a moment the girl had started moving again and the noises came back
when re watchig the scene again and again trying to figure out what the hell had just happened he had noticed something that lead him to re-consider lelouch's actions up to that point
the red headed girl was actually turning around before the KMF had landed (he had at first beileved that she was turning around becouse of the shock of it)
and her reaction before the time freeze was rather panic filled (a closer look at the tape revealed that she was calling them to wait)
which led J to the conclution that lelouch had said something to her before the escape
and then it all clicked into place
lelouch had lied to make her hate him
in order to protect her
J had always been able to read most people's motives and ways of thinking rather easily from even the shortest amount of time
one of the reasons he had been so moved by emperor lelouch was that unlike most people he could not be read
there was always something about his actions and his words that had made him seem off
as if you couldnt know whether or not he was lying or telling the truth EVER
it had made him unreadble and his logic beyond compere
until now...
with that one action lelouch had revealed his true nature to J
and suddenly the meaning behind everything that followed
taking over britannia
taking over the world
and finally his death
had become crystal clear to him
lelouch had taken the hate of all the world upon himself in order to protect it (in a much larger scale, it was the same thing as what he did)
and then for the first time J had felt betreyed
the man J had preceived as a messiah had been shown to be a false one
and the promise of a greater future he had shown J turned out to be nothing more then a lie
he had instead been revealed as a coward who could only change the world in a small meaningless way and had lacked the balls to take the world to the next stage
J had then deceided that if lelouch was just a fake then J would become the real thing instead
he would change the world himself by destroying the new order that lelouch had made possible and prove himself even greater then his failure of a hero

thats an insight into the motives of the villan of the piece

[equinox822]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

except this is the villain of the story
not villain protagonist

It would still be a sickeningly obvious milking attempt. Continuation to Code Geass could work, but I'd prefer it with completely new characters. Lelouch fan or not, little of interest remains after he is taken away (Apart from the Geass as a whole). Suzaku's life as Zero might be something, but it would still feel rather vaunted.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

Yeah Lelouch was like monstrously popular in Japan(where it actually matters) if you look at some of the character polls in some magazines such as newtype etc. He consistently came out on top as CG's most popular character and the most popular anime character overall.

I'm not saying he's the only reason people watched the show but he was a bloody big part of it.

If they do plan to make a sequel and plan to bring back everyone bar Lelouch then it wouldn't be surprising if Sunrise made Taniguchi, Okuchi or whoever pull a retcon for marketings sake. Why pass up the opportunity for increased sales? Credibility? Screw that Sunrise lost that along time ago.

I would hope that Oukochi would care about credibility, and not just do a repeat of Gundam Seed Destiny where Lelouch shows up to take over the series again because he was popular.

[bladeofdarkness]

i'll also add some details on the state of the world in which J can play

Spoiler for really long ass post:

several months after ZERO-R's completion (not after the epiloge, but after lelouch's death) the world has changed a great deal
the war that has raged around the world has ended as old hate was put aside in exchange for a new one (lelouch)
the very nature of the new post-war world means that the funding once dedicated to militery force has been cut down to a fraction of its old self and as such much of the armed forces have been phased out (both for finance reasons as well as the fact that many of those who were once soldiers now choose to lead a life of peace instead)

in britannia
nunnaly is emperess for the time being which means she spends a great deal of time working with the UFN leaders to tie the economy of the two nations into one
britannia retains its some of its army for the time being since it is not yet a part of the UFN
the reason is that instead of excepting the prior offer of 20% voting rights (as offered to lelouch) nunnaly instead wishes to disasamble britannia's area system and frees each and every area to its own independence
this how ever means that it would be years before the process is finished as some of the area's are not in a position to become indepenent yet as it would only cause starvation and civil wars among factions in those countries (this matter handled by shnizel who serves nunnaly under zero's orders)
there is also the matter of democey
nunnaly having realized that the old royalty system is all but dead now that she corneila (who has advecated her claim to the thrown) and shnizel are all thas left (and that she herself would probably never have children of her own due to her injuries)
she now seeks to turn britannia into a republic instead and allow for a new democratic system of one man one vote instead of the centuries old monarcy and nobility that has come before
naturally this cant take place until all the area's are freed (since nunnaly wants to make sure it happens before giving up her position)
but the plan is that within the decade the old system and order would completely be replaced by a new system that sees all as equal in its eyes (both noble and common born)
while most of the world (both in the UFN and britannia) sees this as a positive step there are those within britannia who sees this as both an insult and a threat for one there is the former nobles (those who were not dumb enough to try and rebel against lelouch after he wiped out the KOR) who while stripped of their position by the former emperor never the less maintain their wealth and influance on some level even with in the corrent system (nunnaly however is trying to reudce it even more, by not giving them extra rights)
however if britannia does turn into a republic they would truly lose both their corrent power level as well as any hope of regaining their old position (which they still seek to do)
their efforts however are doomed to fail in the corrent britannia as nunnaly not only has the support of the army (many of whom see her as the rightful emperess and therfor are loyal to her) but also the support of the UFN (who is the biggest power in the world and has a large say in economic matters and finally the people support nunnaly and see her as the new hope for britannia
there are also the many weapon manufacturing corporation who under charles as well as had been some of the riches groups in britannia who have since all but been made useless since they no longer get any work and stand to lose a lot of money
some choose to sell much of the older KMF's (7th and 8th gen even) and other weapons that were not purchesed by the goverment to what can be called for a lack of a better term the "private sector" inorder to proffit from them instead of just losing money
officially many of these KMF's are marked for disposle but are never the less sold
ZERO (from now on suzaku would be refered to as such) is at nunnaly side as her protector and advisor and serves to protect her as well as strangthen her ties with the UFN and its armed force the UFA (in which he holds a rather high position
as such he is the only person actively part in both sides

in the UFN
after lelouch's death the OOBK more or less disappeared and its remenets have been folded a standard UFN armed force named the UFA (united federation army, name pending)
in the aftermath of the zero-r war the older models of the akatski command units have been slowly phased out and there are less and less of the standard models
there are never the less more of the standard 5th and 6th gens that the CF makes (those gun ru things) in active service as they are much cheaper to maintain
there is a plan to finally unite the UFN army with the britannian one (in a matter of years) and as such there is an effort to have a less complex rag tag army and focus on a standard force
the vincent has been chosen as the new command model while the wards have been phased out in favor of the akatsuki's but for the time being the army is still in something of a mess (since its being rebuilt after lelouch trashed it)
there is also an attemped to build a new 9th gen prototype who would serve as the base for the new mass produce line of 9th gen's
but as both rakshata and Lloyd feel that they can do the job themselves the out come is that both have built their own version of what they feel the new 9th gens should be like

Lloyd's version is in many ways like the lancelot albion in its function (as it was built by the same team) but has a different name and look (since the lancelot symoblizes the Knight of Zero and as such is not a good memory)
it has energy wings as well as all the standard things Lloyd likes
it is how ever less fast then the old albion as no pilot could use its speed effectively
the test pilot for it is the ace of the new UFA and he seeks to be made famus as the best pilot in the world

rakshata's version of the 9th gen is vastly different as she does not have the energy wing tech
instead her model fetures several new techs
it contains the the old gefun net only its used differently then on the guren
its used to make the KMF stealth enabled (since it wouldnt show on rader)
its also as manuvrable as the shen-hu and has its baryon cannon
finally and most notbly is the incoporation of the drouid system into its OS which lets its pilot not only use its speed to the max but also predict enemy movements and courses to the point where the pilot barly has to aim at them in order to hit them
allowing one pilot to dominate the battlefield due to better fire power
the test pilot for this model is gino who has since become part of the UFN forces
he also attends ashford during his time off (and is part of the student counceil along side kallen and rivals)

both 9th gens are operational and the two versions are pending aprooval in order to deceide which one would be choosen as the new model to be the next 9th gen mass production model

there is also a rumer going around (mostly old pilots tale) that prior to his death emperor lelouch had forced rakashata and Lloyd to work together and build him the most powerful KMF ever made (something that could almost be called a 10th gen) and yet no one know what it was supposed to be like
rakshata and Lloyd both deny ever building such a thing and have no idea why people say that they did (even pointing out that they would never be able to work together)
some of the rumers say that after building it lelouch found out that he couldnt use it and became scared that if it fell into the wrong hands it could be used to take him out and so had it destroyed (some rumers claim he only hid it somewhere)

the source of the rumers lies in the fact that lelouch did indid make them build such a thing using his geass (to make them work on rebuilding the old guren SEITEN together while puting their egos aside and working in tendum, and then forget about it entirely)
the result is the GUREN SEITEN Q1 type (name pending)
a KMF that fetures many of the newer tricks that the other two models have (like the stealth mode and droid system) but its main point is that it turns the guren SEITEN into what the albion was for suzaku
the first guren model actually designed speceificlly for kallen's use (rather then the old models which she was basicllly handed and told to use) and as such has been remade to enable kallen to use its new specs to their full potential rather then the limited level that was possible before (using the droid system for pilot assist and target tracking and such)
after constructing this machine (in the two months before his death) lelouch hid the machine in the old speical inteligence sector (where the vincent and the shinkiro were stored) making a point to cover its tracks to the point where only one person on earth knows where it is (the only one who leluoch considered the "right hands" to put it in)

the UFN itself is very much the same way that it was before ZERO-R with kaguya as its chair woman and its member states connected by the treaty which formed it
how ever there are many within the UFN member states themselves who feel discontent about the state of the world
while the reasons differ due to ethnic and culture the main claim is that the UFN has served its use (it was after all a federation formed to oppose britannia) and sees the fact that they are forced to remain part of it as no different then the area system that was used in britannia
and many groups have been rebelling against their own goverment in their own nations as a result (mostly groups of nationallists who resort to terrorist attacks and gurrila warfare
and since none of the member nation's have their own army anymore its more or less falls on the UFA to put down fires where ever things get to intense
the situation is not all that bad as none of the groups have any real numbers or fire power to pose a threat to the goverments of the UFN and are put down rather hastly
but it does mean that UFA forces are spread around the entire UFN territoties at the request of their member states under xing-ke's command (whos health is getting worse and worse)

to be continued (once my hand stops hurting)

[npal]

All the worse. Lelouch was so popular and liked cause he was a complex character who took the role of both the hero and the villain, along with a number of other traits. A starting villain has a very long way to go, and starting on that path by possessing Lelouch traits is not a good way to come on top in the comparison. The risk of actually being just another villain who doesn't have much to give is high. Code Geass villains seriously lack in that department. Charles and Schneizer can't come close to Lelouch's complexity, and at this point, neither can the secondary characters left alive. So even if we don't even consider the villain as Lelouch's successor, who's gonna take up the mantle of Lelouch's popularity? Suzaku? Nunnally?

In the end, there's no true KING left on the board, there are just pawns and a number of figureheads. Even if they make a copy villain, who's gonna lead the other side? Suzaku has always been a pawn, as well as Nunnaly, Ohgi and everyone else. Ascending to king status would probably need a whole season and even then, no one will be Lelouch.

It's essentially pointless to try to create Lelouch without Lelouch. My prediction is that if they choose to create new characters and have the old ones take over, it won't be as successful as the original Code Geass, leading either to stagnation OR to a spin-off, where Lelouch can be alive. Unless of course, they bring him back anyway, which would be wise enough, from a marketing point, cause everyone likes Lelouch and they'll continue to do so.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I would hope that Oukochi would care about credibility, and not just do a repeat of Gundam Seed Destiny where Lelouch shows up to take over the series again because he was popular.

Well, credibility goes out the window when the company wants to sell. Whether the employee cares about credibility or not is irrelevant. In the worst case, they'll just hire someone else to make what they believe to a profitable sequel for them. Whether that will feature Lelouch or not is up to how the company perceives maximum profit. But my opinion is that they have a far better chances with using Lelouch again, since I believe he was the main reason Code Geass was successful, and without him, it'll be a gamble. And I don't know whether Sunrise would like to gamble. I don't think they're a company that gambles.

[youngde]

Besides, any new villian in the CG universe would have to be on Lelouch and Schneizel's level to even be a problem. Either Lelouch or a Lelouch clone would have to stop him. Lord knows Suzaku, Kallen and Nunnally couldn't do it on their own. (Besides when Lelouch and Suzaku are together, there's nothing they can't do; although, maybe they should change it to Kallen since, according to the updated profile, she did win the fight w/ Suzaku.)

[Used Can]

I, honestly, wouldn't like them to bring Lelouch back just for marketing purposes. Although I'd really love Lelouch to have survived (became immortal, etc...), I'd rather accept and respect the creator's decision, even if I do not like it.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by npal

All the worse. Lelouch was so popular and liked cause he was a complex character who took the role of both the hero and the villain, along with a number of other traits. A starting villain has a very long way to go, and starting on that path by possessing Lelouch traits is not a good way to come on top in the comparison. The risk of actually being just another villain who doesn't have much to give is high. Code Geass villains seriously lack in that department. Charles and Schneizer can't come close to Lelouch's complexity, and at this point, neither can the secondary characters left alive. So even if we don't even consider the villain as Lelouch's successor, who's gonna take up the mantle of Lelouch's popularity? Suzaku? Nunnally?

In the end, there's no true KING left on the board, there are just pawns and a number of figureheads. Even if they make a copy villain, who's gonna lead the other side? Suzaku has always been a pawn, as well as Nunnaly, Ohgi and everyone else. Ascending to king status would probably need a whole season and even then, no one will be Lelouch.

It's essentially pointless to try to create Lelouch without Lelouch. My prediction is that if they choose to create new characters and have the old ones take over, it won't be as successful as the original Code Geass, leading either to stagnation OR to a spin-off, where Lelouch can be alive. Unless of course, they bring him back anyway, which would be wise enough, from a marketing point, cause everyone likes Lelouch and they'll continue to do so.

The problem I have is can they create a sequel with Lelouch that's good?

Britannia is no longer a problem, Europe was powerless, and Asia was by and large good in the previous series. That leaves no major armies unless somone takes over Britannia, and I would rather not see Neo Britannia with Nunnaly as some puppet.

If the only reason people want to see Lelouch is for him to show up in a weird outfit and scream out speeches than the series would be nothing but horrible fanservice dreck.

Suzaku: Oh no Neo Britannia is attacking us
Lelouch: never forget who you are Suzaku
Suzaku turns and sees Lelouch in a Las Vegas showgirl outfit
Lelouch starts dancing

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I, honestly, wouldn't like them to bring Lelouch just for marketing purposes. Although I'd really love Lelouch to have survived (became immortal, etc...), I'd rather accept and respect the creator's decision, even if I do not like it.

I have no problem w/ the writer having a particular way of wanting a story to end, but I also respect the fact that all pieces of art are partially creator intent and partially the audience interpretation. If the fans prefer that he's alive, and that's the story they go with, I have no problem with that particularly. The best works of art are never finished and evolve w/ time.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by youngde

If the fans prefer that he's alive, and that's the story they go with, I have no problem with that particularly.

Yes, but when official sources contradict fan speculation, then that speculation can no longer be regarded as a possible fact. That's what you can fan fiction.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Yes, but when official sources contradict fan speculation, then that speculation can no longer be regarded as a possible fact. That's what you can fan fiction.

That's what I meant by thing evolving over time. The original creator may have intended Lelouch to die, but that doesn't change the fact that w/ a series like Code Geass and the way the end was written, it leaves it open reconning later. Officially, the writer says he's dead, but this isn't real life, so it can get changed (particularly since it's SUNRISE, not the writer that holds rights to the IP). Fan Fiction can become the reality if a large enough fan base wants it...mind you, this can lead to some seriously crappy sequels if it isn't done properly. To be certain, I would rather Lelouch stay dead than have them release a sequel that's horrible. But if it's reconned w/ some amount of thought, hopefully, it won't be (if it happens).

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by youngde

(Besides when Lelouch and Suzaku are together, there's nothing they can't do; although, maybe they should change it to Kallen since, according to the updated profile, she did win the fight w/ Suzaku.)

...now that's going a bit far. Kallen's victory doesn't suddenly turn her into Suzaku himself and allow her to replace him in the legendary duo. >_>

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

...now that's going a bit far. Kallen's victory doesn't suddenly turn her into Suzaku himself and allow her to replace him in the legendary duo. >_>

actually there was a joke poster a while ago (after 18)
saying that
KALLEN IS THE NEW SUZAKU
dont know if you remember that one

http://media.photobucket.com/image/k...uzaku.jpg?o=21

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually there was a joke poster a while ago (after 18)
saying that
KALLEN IS THE NEW SUZAKU
dont know if you remember that one

http://media.photobucket.com/image/k...uzaku.jpg?o=21

I do remember, but it wasn't exactly meant to be flattering for Kallen.

[bladeofdarkness]

its true on some level
she took over some of suzaku's roles in R2
kallen took over suzaku's position as both wide eyed idealist (more so then suzaku at least) and lone ace pilot against army of enemies

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

...now that's going a bit far. Kallen's victory doesn't suddenly turn her into Suzaku himself and allow her to replace him in the legendary duo. >_>

Um, I was kidding. Settle down.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by youngde

Um, I was kidding. Settle down.

Yeah, I tried not to sound too harsh because I know you're among the nicest Kallen fans here and I wasn't sure you were serious, but it would not be the first time people (seriously) try to replace Suzaku with Kallen and...after all the hate the guy got it's rather annoying that even that gets taken from him >.>

[morbosfist]

Not to claim that Kallen has somehow replaced Suzaku, but rewatching Turn 25 I noticed something I found rather funny. Near the end of the fight, Suzaku tries his spin kick and loses his leg for the trouble. Just after they tear each others' wings off, Kallen uses Suzaku's own spin kick against him and connects.