[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Really? Should I just give up to this apparent lack of communication or should I try more?

Is there anyone that got my point about clocks? I want to know if it's me or Renall.

I just don't see what we're arguing about. "It was about midnight?" Because we agree on that. It was just not exactly midnight because it's never "exactly" midnight, except in the stories where it can totally be exactly midnight. "Within a minute or so of what's expected to be midnight" is good enough.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This should apply to meta-interpretations of a non-meta scene, or her reliable viewpoint is absolutely worthless. It's even worse an idea than "Kanon behind Gohda lol."

There really is no such thing as a reliable viewpoint. Even Battler's supposedly reliable viewpoint went out the window at the end of episode 2 when he gave in to the belief that witches exist.

To rely on someone's viewpoint is a choice we make as readers. How far can we trust that Erika's viewpoint was really objectively reliable? Was what she perceived The Truth, or simply how an "intellectual rapist" sees things?

Originally Posted by Renall

To conclude what you've said would mean that Erika's powers don't work as we're explicitly told they work. So for you to be right, Ryukishi has to be making stuff up again that he actually intends for us to believe are how things work when in fact they don't.

I'm not saying that Piece-Erika's powers are misrepresented; I'm saying that the human player's thoughts shape the very story itself and thus what "exists" in the story for Piece-Erika to perceive. If it were Battler, for instance, playing the human side of the game then End would have been a different story, literally.

[jjblue1]

About Erika and Bern not noticing that not everyone is in the room...

Is it possible they merely didn't pay it any attention?

Battler is the one obsessed with the body count because he wants to find an extra person.

Bern and Erika knows that according to the 'rules' there can't be an extra person so, when they were shown the parlour the first time, they didn't bother checking up if the people shown where the only ones in Rokkenjima and if they were all present at the same time. Ironically, if Bern and Erika had checked the number of people, they would have realized that although there was no extra person as they believed, Shannon and Kanon were never in the parlour at the same time.

It's however possible that Shannon and Kanon had showed up in the parlour at different times (like the cousins) and the red given by Lambda to Erika was:
You'll be introduced to everyone who's in Rokkenjima in the parlour not you'll be in the parlour with everyone who's on Rokkenjima at the same time.

This would generate the belief that everyone at one point had been gathered in the parlour.
Erika's photographic memory works only as long as she bothers to look at things. It's impossible to keep so many people in a room as large as that one under observation at the same time, especially since Erika isn't against a wall (in order to check everyone she should spin constantly so as to make sure what the people behind her are doing... which would be ridicule). In her vision there are 'black holes', points of the room that, for a certain time, aren't in her field of vision.
It's unlikely she cares though as she has no reason to assume that a person is playing the role of two people and therefore isn't just out of her field of vision but had left, had dressed up differently and had showed up to meet her again as another person.

Later, when Battler was shown the scene, it's possible Bern and Erika weren't really paying attention to it, as they had already seen it, they believe they already know how many people in Rokkenjima there are and don't deem the scene of any importance (according to them they had already solved the game using Natsuhi as culprit).

So, it's kind of similar to how Erika didn't check the corpses.

Bern didn't notice the trick because she didn't bother looking at the scene as she already saw it and, even if she had looked at it, she wouldn't be able to compare it with the one showed to Erika as back then she didn't bother checking if everyone was present at the same time and, as far as we know, has no photographic memory, so she couldn't compare Battler's point of view with Erika's and realize the differences (we don't know if Bern's point of view is reliable when the scene is showed in 'Battler's vision', it's possible she sees the scene as the narrator presents it, in short this time she's seeing it with 'Battler's unreliable vision').

Erika on the other side, with her photographic memory, could have remembered that, during the parlour scene, there were moments in which Shannon or Kanon were missing, but, as said before, she wasn't paying attention to what Battler and Lambda were saying because she thought she had already solved the game and maybe she was polishing her solution right then.

Also in the manga representation of the scene Erika is not even present when Lambda gives that red so it's possible she was elsewhere and never heard it nor cared for it.

So what about this?
Have I missed something?

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Edit: Ryuukishi's lines about something we can only understand if we have been in love. Not all love stories leads people wanting to murder others, happy love stories exists. That's why I don't think that's what he meant. It was something more vague I think. Suppose we take George. His love of Shannon is making him built up tons of dreams he may or may not be able to ever fulfill. Nonetheless he kept on dreaming about it and kept on polishing it. Love makes one "daydream" about a lot of things.
Anyway there is no way that anyone on earth would ever understand simply out of having been/being in love how that could lead you to mass murdering 18 people. Hmm I guess it's more 15 and one suicide.
The only thing that compares to that I can think of in our non fictional world is the people who made murder sprees into colleges and schools. I really doubt love was part of any of them's motives either.

I think if love and maddness are what pushed/could have pushed Yasu to act then Ryukishi did a poor job at portraying them.

Spoiler for Spoilers about Higurashi:

In Higurashi one of the characters kill people due to 'love and madness' but her reasons are explained way better (and also Ryukishi added a fictional disease that drove her to madness) so, although you don't approve her, you can get what pushed her to that point.

Either Yasu's drama was so sugarcoated we fail to see it as a drama strong enough to push her to kill so many people or Yasu is overreacting/insane because no normal person would go so far as to stage up a mass murder because her childhood sweetheart didn't show up to get her.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Also in the manga representation of the scene Erika is not even present when Lambda gives that red so it's possible she was elsewhere and never heard it nor cared for it.

So what about this?
Have I missed something?

Hm really? Ghost Erika may not be such a dead theory after all.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Hm really? Ghost Erika may not be such a dead theory after all.

In the manga when Battler sees that scene there's just Bern, Lambda and Beato with him (Chap 6).
Erika shows up in the meta world in Chap 10, when they talk about the phone call Natsuhi received but Battler is nowhere to be seen so it's possible we're tricked into believing that discussion is taking place in front of Battler when, instead, he wasn't there (in short this is something that happened prior to Battler joining the game).
Erika and Battler met in the meta world in chap 11, after we're shown that Battler went to bed.
Note that in chap 11 Erika tries to shake hands with Battler who refuses so it's possible that, in the manga, that was their first 'meta meeting'.
I'm not sure about the novel though.

Someone can confirm/deny if things went like that in the novel too?

Also the manga seems to imply that Battler and Erika didn't just always stay in the 'challenge room' (no idea how to call the room with the chessboard in it) but moved in and out of it (there's a point in which Battler is reasoning with Virgilia about the letter... but he's in a different room, there's Beato but Lambda and Bern are nowhere to be seen)

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That completely invalidates either the absolute reliability of her perspective or the validity of the deductions she can made from them.

It doesn't completely invalidate anything.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Which either way would prevent her from reaching absolute conclusions like the red truths. However she still can spill red truths like there's no tomorrow. If she was really that mad to "see things" no matter if she thought she killed Kyrie and Natsuhi and so on in EP6, her interpretation of reality is fucked up = she can't reach red truths, at all!

If there is the possibility that she could see inexisting things then there is the possibility that she just dreamed about killing Natsuhi and the rest, it's not 100% = it can't be a red truth. This is also one of Ryuukishi's law.

Iirc Erika did not speak a single Red Truth in End. She gathered information and had Bernkastel confirm it in Red, or she had Dlanor speak the Decalogue in Red. She spoke some Reds at the end of Dawn, but most of those were simply confirmations of certain well-established or obvious facts. Then, ironically, the fact about her being the 18th human was both spoken in Red and refuted in Red.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is amazing how many times it happened that people trying to patch up plot holes didn't realize how many other problems (even greater problems sometimes, but not this case) the proposed patch would cause if true. Reminds me the many discussions I had with Chronotrig.

Let me make this clear: I'm not 100% confident of the particular theory I've put forth in my last few posts. But RK07 tells us his messages in strange ways, so I think it's warranted that we try to employ diverse approaches to completely understand Umineko.

Also, I don't see the "number of people in the parlor issue" as a 'plot hole' because there's no way in Hell that RK07 doesn't recognize the apparent discrepancy; it would make him utterly incompetent as a writer, and I just don't think he's that careless. However, whether he was smart enough to judge whether he provided us sufficient information to figure out why the discrepancy exists is another matter.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Yes, I am.

• A ton of witnesses (Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi) saw the dead in the cousins' room.
• Those same witnesses viewed the cousins' room as empty when they saw it again later with Natsuhi.
• After George's death, his corpse was never moved!
  After Jessica's death, her corpse was never moved!
  After Maria's death, her corpse was never moved!
  After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!
• None of the corpses would ever lead to a mistaken autopsy.

I'll let you think about it.

I didnt interpret these reds like this at all. They never were dead, they stood up and left afterwards. If they weren't there to begin with then Erika would have noticed the lack of something in the beds. If they were manikins then someone must have moved them anyways. The "corpses" where later moved by Kinzo, and that was impossible. So they just stood up and left.

Those reds regarding their movements come in an environment where no reds could be presented (by Battler's team at least) without proof. I interpreted this as a form of rule that would be present in all of the Rokkenjima games till now. In mysteries, moving corpses around to create a mystery isn't usually done. It actually happens a lot in Umineko, but then this solves the dilemma of moving "corpses".

About Erika's use of reds.

None of the corpses would ever lead to a mistaken autopsy.


All five people I killed......were very much alive until the moment I killed them.

Even without the detective authority Erika could say this. Its not a trick or anything. Using the previous red she was able to say it without doubt. Its ultimately something that Ive been meaning to check in all other games to try and reach a conclusion to something.

[cronnoponno]

What if the answer is something bullshit? Like....

Their corpses were never moved after their death, because they weren't dead, however by the time the explosion happened, there was no corpse to move, this way you can troll Erika into thinking they're dead while avoiding breaking the rules...



Any cousin, lets just say the fatass, moments in chronological order:

George is alive.
George is fake-killed, but he's still alive.
George takes a stroll out of the room when the coast is clear.
Bomb occurs.
George Dies, his corpse is absolutely obliterated.

After George's death, his corpse was never moved!

That way you can still say George died.

[jjblue1]

I've been thinking at the ShKannon thing again and at how they could be declared dead and how Ryukishi could have thought it was 'fair' (I'm not saying I agree with him).

I wonder if the idea is that Ryukishi gave us an extra hint about 1 body being able to host more than one personality very early in the game so we should have figured it out one personality could die without the body count to decrease.

I'll explain myself better.

In Ep 2 Beato placed herself on the game board.
She becomes the 19th piece. However the people in Rokkenjima can't be more than 18 people and this work for all the games.
This should have helped us to assume that a person was playing a double role and that, in short, Beato was disguising herself as one of the characters (actually later we'll find out she was disguising herself as two characters).
When it was said that those characters were 'killed' Beato merely simulated their death and got rid of the disguises.

The so called 'resurrection' never really took place because since said characters never existed in the first place but were merely disguises they couldn't be resurrected, however people who met Beato might have mistaken her for Shannon or Kanon giving life to the idea that the two had resurrected even thought they were just illusions.

While this explanation is extremely weak in the real world, Umineko assumes characters' can have 'extra lives' (*sigh* this sounds as if one of them was Mario from the 'Mario Bros' game) and, since Ryukishi believes we were 'warned' beforehand about this, we were supposed to assume that red could be used to 'kill' just one of the two lives, allowing the character to stay alive. Of course, since a real person can't have an extra life or be killed twice in real life, Ryukishi also assumed we would guess the first death, although declared in red, wasn't the dead of the body but the dead of the disguise. If we add to the mix the ShKannon thing in the game there's a person that might need to be killed thrice with red to die definitely (yes, it's the same as 'Mario Bros').

Ryukishi said Umineko is a logic puzzle so, to him, this can look as 'fair'.

In a fashion this gives to the red truth 'If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved' a new meaning.

It becomes:
'If you accept that a body has two or more identities, one of which being ME, you can easily figure at a certain point I merely killed one identity and not the body. As soon as you do so you immediately realize who only had one identity killed (the one whose corpse wasn't seen/was missing) and therefore could still be up and killing the others.'

Sadly this doesn't help the realism of the game (and if a thing lack in realism as far as I'm involved it can't be deducted and therefore it's not 'fair') nor help us to understand Yasu or feel sympathy for her so, although Ryukishi might have believed it would work... hum... I hope a better explanation will come up.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I didnt interpret these reds like this at all. They never were dead, they stood up and left afterwards. If they weren't there to begin with then Erika would have noticed the lack of something in the beds. If they were manikins then someone must have moved them anyways. The "corpses" where later moved by Kinzo, and that was impossible. So they just stood up and left.

Sorry, I needed to put forth more evidence. There's the menu report on their "deaths" (I'll quote Jessica's, but they are all the same):

Her's corpse was found in the cousins' room... ...her neck was sliced open by a sharp blade. The wound was so deep that anyone could easily confirm her death with absolute certainty.

If they were reported as being certainly dead when they actually were not dead then our best option is that the report itself was a lie. And in that case, as soon as anyone saw a "victim" playing dead they would necessarily discover that the "certainly mortal" wounds were falsely reported. It's the kind of lie that only works if no one views the corpses, and if no one views the corpses there's no point in someone playing dead. So basically the ruse is 100% spoken lie; the beds are empty. I had thought that they all leave when Battler screams and Erika is away, but your observation about listening to Battler's breathing caused me to think of the "victims" changing rooms earlier.

About Erika not even noticing that the beds were empty, I have two ideas. First is just that she simply does not look in that direction, which is silly I know, but I wouldn't put it past Erika's over-the-top character to completely neglect doing so. Second is that she intentionally avoids viewing or reporting the beds because she is somehow aware that it would provide information that could mess up the Natsuhi culprit scenario that she is trying to construct.

Actually, I think I've figured out the key to Erika's sometimes bizarre behavior: It makes sense, considering the nature of Bernkastel's power over "miracles", that Erika would simply "happen" to do whatever is most convenient for Bernkastel.

[AuraTwilight]

There really is no such thing as a reliable viewpoint.

The rules of the Gameboard disagree.

Anyway, here's a better solution.

Erika: "Where's Kanon"

Shannon (throwing her voice): "I'm right here, behind Gohda."

Erika: "Oh."

[Renall]

The degree of stupid logic necessary to explain the parlor scene suggests either that we're not getting something important or Ryukishi screwed up somehow. It's not as if we don't know how all his rules tend to work in every other instance he's set up to use them. That this one should confuse everyone so much is kind of baffling.

Also bear in mind that even if Erika wasn't present when the scene was replayed to Battler, it was still a "replay." Consider what that means for a moment. Erika probably saw the scene at least once. Bernkastel has to have seen it at least twice. Nary a word is said.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The rules of the Gameboard disagree.

Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by Renall

It's not as if we don't know how all his rules tend to work in every other instance he's set up to use them.

We do?? The Red Truth debate alone makes me want to disagree.

[AuraTwilight]

Care to elaborate?

The Detective, which is Erika in this case, has to have a visually reliable viewpoint. If they check a body, they cannot be mistaken about it's living/dead status, and they cannot witness fantasy scenes and the like. They cannot physically witness things that aren't strictly true, even though they can make false conclusions. This is a point brought up in both EP5 and EP6 as major plot points.

If we're going to dismiss this as you seem to be doing, then Battler's argument is invalidated; Who cares if he saw a ghost of Kinzo, his viewpoint's still reliable since the burden of proof was on him to demonstrate it wasn't, by Dlanor. Ergo, Battler's the Detective still, and the whole narrative crashes.

So do you want to go that way?

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Sorry, I needed to put forth more evidence. There's the menu report on their "deaths" (I'll quote Jessica's, but they are all the same):

If they were reported as being certainly dead when they actually were not dead then our best option is that the report itself was a lie. And in that case, as soon as anyone saw a "victim" playing dead they would necessarily discover that the "certainly mortal" wounds were falsely reported. It's the kind of lie that only works if no one views the corpses, and if no one views the corpses there's no point in someone playing dead. So basically the ruse is 100% spoken lie; the beds are empty. I had thought that they all leave when Battler screams and Erika is away, but your observation about listening to Battler's breathing caused me to think of the "victims" changing rooms earlier.

About Erika not even noticing that the beds were empty, I have two ideas. First is just that she simply does not look in that direction, which is silly I know, but I wouldn't put it past Erika's over-the-top character to completely neglect doing so. Second is that she intentionally avoids viewing or reporting the beds because she is somehow aware that it would provide information that could mess up the Natsuhi culprit scenario that she is trying to construct.

Actually, I think I've figured out the key to Erika's sometimes bizarre behavior: It makes sense, considering the nature of Bernkastel's power over "miracles", that Erika would simply "happen" to do whatever is most convenient for Bernkastel.

You need to read that scene again since it seems like you didn't get what happened at that time. I remember that Battler, Eva , Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Dr. Nanjo are there in that room. I think They are talking about a wound in the victims neck and before Erika entered the room they covered all the bodies with bed sheet. Erika just happened to hear them in the Hallway and tried to inspect the crime scene. But she made a mistake. She never looked at the corpse to confirmed the sliced neck or to confirmed their deaths instead she just talked to Battler's and the others about what happened , mainly to Dr. Nanjo.

To go even further, She also never saw Hideyoshi's corpse in the second twilight. She was outside at the time they discovered the corpse. When she returned inside she wasn't allowed to enter the crime scene. She just saw a body with a bed sheet being taken out of the room.

[naever]

About Erika, I had this feeling the first time reading End that she was much closer to us readers in her point of view than the other characters in the gameboard, which is kind of silly when it comes out in Dawn that she was under detective's autority...

But take that meta scene in Kinzo's room and Erika's reaction about it shortly after. I think all the adults had seen or guessed that Battler had climbed down the window, but it sounds like Erika saw him flying through the air. It took her a long time to figure out what had really happened too.

There are other small things like this too, it just seems like a huge contradiction to me. Am I missing something?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by naever

About Erika, I had this feeling the first time reading End that she was much closer to us readers in her point of view than the other characters in the gameboard, which is kind of silly when it comes out in Dawn that she was under detective's autority...

But take that meta scene in Kinzo's room and Erika's reaction about it shortly after. I think all the adults had seen or guessed that Battler had climbed down the window, but it sounds like Erika saw him flying through the air. It took her a long time to figure out what had really happened too.

There are other small things like this too, it just seems like a huge contradiction to me. Am I missing something?

Was it gameboard Erika that commented that or Meta Erika? If it was Meta then she's just seeing what Lamda constructed for her. Its probable that Erika just wasn't in a proper vantage to actually see it right.

Again, this particular scene leads to another example of incompetent/complacent Erika with a particular red that she could have used to prevent that from happened but whatever.

About the corpses. I never mentioned Erika listening to the others breathing. Its more likely that she was listening for foot steps, signs of struggle, doors opening or closing. I mean, if you give her the power to actually listen to somebody's breathing from across a room with a wall in between, a storm raging outside, air conditioning inside, etc. You might as well giver her the power to listen to breathing everywhere in the island and just have her be some sort of omniscient super infallible being.

Battler's theory works fine. In fact, its almost a necessity, because we know that somebody went around calling Natsuhi and killing (?) other people. In this case we have other candidates that could do this because they were no longer under Erika's supervision.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also bear in mind that even if Erika wasn't present when the scene was replayed to Battler, it was still a "replay." Consider what that means for a moment. Erika probably saw the scene at least once. Bernkastel has to have seen it at least twice. Nary a word is said.

Precisely because it's a reply Bern might not have paid it attention enough to notice that in Battler's subjective view there was something that wasn't present in Erika's objective view.

Then, as I've already said, neither Erika or Bern ever cared about the number of the people in the island as they KNOW there's no a 19 person.
They don't suspect however the number of the people could be inferior to the one they think (otherwise in EP 6 Erika would have checked it) so it's unlikely that they checked, when the scene was first played, if there was a point in which everyone was in the parlour.

By the time the scene is replayed, Erika isn't present and Bern has no photographic memory and is seeing it from Battler's point of view (as we are) so she can be tricked into thinking that Shannon and Kanon were present as separate beings in the same way as we are.

I guess the whole thing in a fashion make fun of who thought it was silly that Battler kept on checking the number of the people present in the island.
Though Battler was checking it for the wrong reason the body count mattered.

Originally Posted by naever

About Erika, I had this feeling the first time reading End that she was much closer to us readers in her point of view than the other characters in the gameboard, which is kind of silly when it comes out in Dawn that she was under detective's autority...

But take that meta scene in Kinzo's room and Erika's reaction about it shortly after. I think all the adults had seen or guessed that Battler had climbed down the window, but it sounds like Erika saw him flying through the air. It took her a long time to figure out what had really happened too.

There are other small things like this too, it just seems like a huge contradiction to me. Am I missing something?

In Erika's defence it had to be said that while the adults knew how the house looked on the outside and could guess what Battler had done to jump out of the window, she never went to see that side of the house and had to figure out merely by reasoning it.

However yes, this shows that Erika isn't so bright as she'd like to look because just by knowing Battler jumped she couldn't immediately guess how he safely landed. She reached this level of reasoning way too late so everyone thinks she was dumb... ^_-

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Iirc Erika did not speak a single Red Truth in End. She gathered information and had Bernkastel confirm it in Red, or she had Dlanor speak the Decalogue in Red. She spoke some Reds at the end of Dawn, but most of those were simply confirmations of certain well-established or obvious facts.

True, but the red truths in Dawn could only came from her perspective, they don't even exist in the narration. If you claim that she can "see things" even when she has detective authority then the whole logic behind "where the hell those red truths come from" in Ep6 falls apart.

Either way there is some scene that happens without any real rationale behind it except for the rule of cool.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Then, ironically, the fact about her being the 18th human was both spoken in Red and refuted in Red.

Which is yet another scene that only happens because of the rule of cool.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Let me make this clear: I'm not 100% confident of the particular theory I've put forth in my last few posts. But RK07 tells us his messages in strange ways, so I think it's warranted that we try to employ diverse approaches to completely understand Umineko.

You aren't trying to understand umineko here, you are trying to defend an author. The problem I have often seen with people that tried that is that trying to defend the author (or the view they had on them) only caused them to get farther from understanding the story.

Let me make a mere speculative example. Suppose Author X makes a little error, and that happened to many well estimated authors like Alfred Hithcock.
Now one person recognizes that part as very odd and realizes it's an error, he disregards it and continues to analyze the rest of the story and actually understands the story as it is. But then there is another person that assumes that it's impossible that the author could make a mistake, which is a biased and unrealistic assumption no matter what kind of author you are talking about, and then creates several baseless theories to patch up the mistake and give it sense to it in the whole contest. Except now it's a completely different story with completely different implications.

Does that person really think he's rendering a favor to the author by twisting his story?

Originally Posted by Wanderer

it would make him utterly incompetent as a writer, and I just don't think he's that careless. However, whether he was smart enough to judge whether he provided us sufficient information to figure out why the discrepancy exists is another matter.

Do you have any idea how many times I heard that?!
I must have seen it a dozen of times during the shkanon debate, and a few more when I suggested the author theory in EP5 back when it wasn't even called "author theory".

Most of the times people didn't remain true to their words, Renall being a notable exception. I doubt you would, even if Ryuukishi were to appear here and say "whops that was a slip up!" you wouldn't think what you just wrote.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

About Erika and Bern not noticing that not everyone is in the room...

Is it possible they merely didn't pay it any attention?

That's one of the scenario I have already contemplated. Erika is supposed to be the incarnation of the perfect detective: photographic memory, ability to find instantly any relevant hint, super memory, exceptional perception and so on.
Except Erika only possesses that on occasions and not 24 hours on 24.

But why? Is it random? No it is not. It is just that she conveniently missess some relevant clues with no other apparent explanation except "it is required by the plot".

She normally plays as an exaggeration of the detective features in murder mysteries, but in a few cases she proves to be even less smart or perceptive than Watson. And there is no explanation for that.

Yes Jiblue, what you are proposing as an explanation is actually a non-explanation. What you are saying is basically: "Why did it happen? It just happened!"

[UsagiTenpura]

Ironically it's not arc 5 that causes me problems exactly but rather arc 7 concerning Shkanon appearing both at once.

At the beginning of arc 5 we are told that LD and Bern might do things that you can do with the gameboard but that Beatrice wouldn't do. Then we have Erika seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time in the same room. Fine, I assume there's something that actually allows that but that Beatrice wouldn't ever have done it cause it'd be too unfair.

But then in arc 7 Shkanon "breaks" when Will is trying to force them to be there at the same time with that whole creepy scene. Why was she about to break then when she could appear as both at the same time in front of Erika?