2015-03-19, 17:41
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Link #34961 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Written without capitals, whatever the other one wishes XD Sorry for the many posts, I dont know how the multi-quoting works...
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And sadly, Im getting slightly frustrated at not having my arguments countered  Ive been saying fantasy is an embellishment all along, but there are no clear differences between the pieces. Thats why they call all the pieces in ep 5 tribunal together and only the normal pieces are there and only one! battler. because there is no clear-cut-difference between the layers. according to your clear-cut-boundary-theory there should be 3 battlers present. I say the concepts overlap, I dont say piece and meta are the same. Sometimes they are, sometimes they arent. Its just that. Your response sadly completely misses my point.Quote:
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Im asking you again then, who is fantasy-battler in the room that experiences everything? Noone sees him there. There is no point in embellishing anything. Im not even arguing for a fantasy-piece-battler, Im arguing against it. And Im asking you again (...) why erika says to him "get yourself out of the room first". But lets stop here, if I may borrow your words: "It’s pretty logic you don’t have a problem with your theory as… well, it’s your theory." You still havent answered why fantasy-piece-battler forgot everything, but I dont mind anymore. Lets end the discussion at this point because I just have to repeat myself. Quote:
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And if you want to call those scenes you mentioned "horrible memories" I dont mind. If you want to invent a random, unimportant scene where battler was in a room he didnt know, I wont mind either. If you want to say every scene in Umineko we see is randomly referring to stuff that is not important at all, even that -I dont mind it at this point. I just have to repeat myself here: Im saying pretty much everything in Umineko has a meaning (why Im saying that even that! I already explained) and is referring to something. I say I can reconstruct prime and find other hints that fit.And we never get to know clearly what this part of Battlers thoughts are referring to, but again, I have already said all that... Yes, you didnt get what I meant. Rudolf is saying "I will probably be killed" and he himself thought "I will probably be killed by Kyrie". We all thought "he will be killed by the culprit and rudolf knows something" when in truth, his sentence was not referring to this assumption but "only" to being killed by kyrie. Im not jumping to anything, Im just repeating what is said (manga, ep 8). It doesnt have anything to do with who he was killed by in prime. Quote:
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I feel like Don Quijote and Sisyhos at the same time now though. Please dont take any offense from that, but I I might not answer immediately if you want to reply - Im busy with real life anyways. I also think a large part of the discussion has become pointless, and you wanted to end it too so lets just do that and think about something that will lead to a more fruitful discussion. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-19 at 18:47. |
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2015-03-19, 18:34
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Link #34962 |
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Inbuiltx9, I like your character analysis of Battler and agree that he did not create Dawn with the intention of being caught in a logic error. I think the card game in EP8 hints at what happened after the logic error occurred. Battler knew he could solve the closed room with Shkanon, but decided to feign defeat for the chance that Beato could solve it and revive. And as haguruma said, he intended to 'lift' the blame from everyone, without 'shifting' it on anyone. As in, the murders were all supposed to be a game, until Erika ruined it. I guess the bomb device still activates by accident without anyone to blame somehow, to keep it consistent with reality.
I do not agree that Ikuko and Touya's story is just a world created by Battler. Battler can create game boards within Rokkenjima as an Endless Sorcerer, but he doesn't have powers on the level of a creator witch. I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima. I believe that meta Battler and Touya are separate entities, but Touya's struggles with his former identity and what happened on Rokkenjima are what created the meta Battler we know. It is similar to how Bernkastel was born from Rika's struggles in Higurashi. I believe the lyrics of Ricordando il passato refer to Battler casting a spell for Beato, instead of creating a world for Ange. I like your theory that the boat scene in the magic ending is the ending of Dawn a lot. In it he fulfills Beato's wish of taking her out of Rokkenjima, and lays her to rest at the bottom of the sea with himself by her side. While that exact song is played. I also don't think that EP6's memory of being locked in an unknown room has that much to do with what happened in Prime. I'd rather think it's indeed Battler or perhaps Ange's (the next scene is Ange waking up in the Hachijou estate) childhood memory. Remember, the narration mentioned familiar voices coming from somewhere close. At what time in Prime would Battler be locked alone in a room while the others were spending time together nearby? I also like haguruma's idea that the locked room is a parallel to Touya's situation. Now then, what exactly happened on Rokkenjima in Touya's world? What we know to be true is the contents of Eva's diary, basically EP7's Tea Party. We also have what Touya tells Ange when he reveals himself as Battler. "On that day, I escaped through the underground passage. I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian. From there, I got away on a motorboat. However, it must have capsized somewhere along the way." What I find curious is that he says that someone told him about an underground passage to Kuwadorian. Then he says "we" escaped to a submarine base, but only "I" got away on a motorboat. I checked that the Japanese was consistent with this translation. Ange's thoughts say that "at any rate, he went into the underground passage, split up with Aunt Eva there, and escaped to the submarine base". Is this plausible, or just Ange's mistaken interpretation? Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues? There are a couple of possible candidates for who told Battler about the underground passage. Eva, who was still alive, Rudolf, who called him to meet him in front of the chapel, and possibly Beatrice, as she was with him in the boat scene of the magic ending and we cannot be 100% sure if she died when she was shot by Kyrie. It's also possible the other one in "we" is the same person. If we assume that Eva is this person, there are a couple of questions. First, would Battler trust Eva's story over his dead parents? Would Eva trust Battler? Second, why didn't they stay together, and Battler escaped on the motorboat while Eva escaped to Kuwadorian? Third, why didn't Eva ever tell Ange that Battler did not die, or was alive at least the last time she saw her? What if it was Rudolf? I personally like the idea that Rudolf would try to save him from Kyrie even if he refused to help them. Assuming Kyrie was not listening in on the converstation, he would tell Battler about the underground passage on the phone and tell him to escape. Rudolf could have helped him even after that, but he was then killed by Eva. Again, lingering questions remain. First, would Rudolf betray Kyrie for Battler? Second, did Rudolf know about the submarine base? If he only knew the passage went to Kuwadorian, he and Kyrie would eventually meet Battler anyway as they would need to go there to avoid the explosion. Was Rudolf just buying time, perhaps enough to tell Kyrie that Battler really is her son? Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler? Or was he actually able to meet Battler before Eva caught up with him? Was it Beatrice herself, after all? She survived the massacre and met Battler. She explained the situation to him and they escaped to the submarine base. Beatrice refused to go, but Battler escaped. First question: why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived? Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her? Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her? Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality? I'm doubtful about the Eva theory and while I like the Rudolf idea thematically, I think the Beatrice explanation might answer everything. To save Beatrice, we need to assume Kyrie either did not actually shoot at her (Only Eva's assumption of what happened? Why wouldn't it happen?), the bullet did not hit (faulty Winchester) or she survived anyway with injuries that caused blood to trickle from her mouth (as the narration tells us). In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply? I also want to share my thoughts about Kyrie's characterization in the EP7 Tea Party. While the sprites in the VN don't show much craziness, it's a whole different deal in the manga. I had too much love for Sayo before, thinking she never intended any real murders, I was thinking I could so to say 'lower my standards' for Kyrie too. I believe Kyrie might have actually turned as cynical and uncaring as presented. I thought that Kyrie might have been some kind of psychopath from the start, which could make an interesting character in itself, but then I thought about her character in EP8. I believe what was shown about the characters on Battler's final game board was not made up and it was part of their true hearts, even if only a little bit. So Kyrie at least had the possibility of caring about Ange. I believe everything goes back to the switching of Kyrie and Asumu's babies. Because of it Asumu was able to take Rudolf from him, essentially by using Battler as a chain to bind him. Her hell of jealousy twisted her personality, and by the time Ange was born, she was ingrained with the thought that children are just chains. This is why she says to Eva that she never really cared about Ange. When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming. Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-19 at 18:48. |
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2015-03-19, 19:55
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Link #34963 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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And now I apologize. I'm sorry, I'm not misunderstanding you on purpose but I've honestly having quite a lot of troubles following you. I keep on getting the feeling that I'm talking about something but either I'm not driving my point or we end somehow talking about two different things without realizing which maybe gave you the feeling I didn't read your posts apparently more than once since you mentioned this twice in your reply and you hinted at it previously as well. I did. I read post before replying to them. And if I take time in replying is because due to work I end up having to do it late at night. But well, if you think the discussion has become pointless, and you wanted to end it I've no problems dropping it. |
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2015-03-19, 20:21
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Link #34964 | ||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Hmm, thats of course possible, it fits with everything if he wanted to give beato the chance to solve the room. i cant think of anything that makes me disagree. but couldnt it also be that he just didnt know about the windows? I mean, at the end the window seals not being checked seems banal (thats also an argument in your favor) but every trick seems simple once you know how it works, doesnt it? and erika appearantly was convinced she would trick battler with that. though really, like I said - your theory is completely valid as far as I can see and I accept it as a possibilty. Oh, then I misunderstood and I apologize. I assumed by "lifting it from everyone" it implied "shifting it to erika". but just "lifting it" - thats completely in line with what I was thinking about. the bomb could actually be the intended culprit XD Yes, might be the bomb activates... Quote:
"I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima." But isnt battler more or less featherine?  But I really like your higurashi-reference very much too, because it wouldnt be the first time the same ideas in the two stories are used. So then how would you explain the "Ange-paradox" at the end (see further below) with this theory? im interested. Quote:
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Also please consider this: the memory-part this person X (ange?/battler?) experiences in the room and when X hears the voices occur while this person is also shown the red text that is exactly the same as battlers logic-error room, isnt it? and all the thoughts with the bath-room and the closet and the window and the witch biting of this persons ring-finger. I really think this refers to battlers experiences in ep 6. And X is battler after having lost his "heart" by the ring, because they said he wouldnt be able to think about how to leave the locked room anymore after that. Not remembering anything about the situation he is in fits. So while I do agree the voices could be seen as a counter-argument, I think of them metaphorically as only him thinking there is someone he wants to see again. or even like this: as someone mocking him-the voices makes him long to go there but he cant. It wouldnt be the first time-he was made fun of by letting him think he can get out of the door too...If what I think is right, that it IS battler there, there are no voices anyways, they would only his hallucination/someone mocking him, because on the game-board, everyone else is in the guest-house while he is in the mansion. Oh but listen to this: it could also be that when battler died in the locked room, he already "heard" the voices of the people of afterlife and he wants to leave the room to be able to meet them. What do you think about that? But yes, I also like hagurumas idea very much. in a certain way, I even read it like that too. Quote:
But let me answer what I think: 1."Is this plausible, or just Ange's mistaken interpretation?" I dont think thats plausible at all. its just anges interpretation. touyas story is left vague on purpose. 2."Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues?". could be, but this is a fantasy-scene anyways. you know, this touya sitting in front of ange has written a book - the book we all know about and in which ep 8 took place. now: we are still in reality. How is it possible for this ange, the real ange, to have seen the events of ep 8 "so the red of the witch applies" when it only happened in a book? thats like me writing a book and you have the memories of what happened in there. Dont you find that weird? And also - Ikuko should be 90 or something. She is described even by Ange as a young woman, so its not just the pictures in the VN. What do you think? 3." we cannot be 100% sure if [Sayo] died when she was shot by Kyrie" Yes, like you said, she was shot with the broken winchester, that didnt work on jessica either. I think thats a plausible reason for sayo to survive 4. "If we assume that Eva is this person, there are a couple of questions.First, would Battler trust Eva's story over his dead parents?" There sure are, and thats actually the only point I havent found any clues about at all... now for your question, I think he would, as this is shown on the game-boards. He was sometimes suspicious of eva or other family memebers, but in the end, he always chose to trust them, even though his parents had died. But maybe there is a hint in ep 3 that I havent found yet... 5.Would Eva trust Battler? I think she would, because she knows that Rudolf and Kyrie acted spontaneously. Battler doesnt even know about the "golden land" so my take on it is yes. 6."why didn't they stay together"? This!!! That is what made me doubt Touyas story in the first place. I have no idea why he wouldnt go with Eva. 7. "What if it was Rudolf? I personally like the idea that Rudolf would try to save him from Kyrie" Oh you dont know how much Id like this idea too! I really hoped rudolf would show a bit more that he feels like a father and I was honestly a bit sad when he actually considered shooting him. I was even rooting for Rudolf in ep 7 "Eva against Rudolf" just so that Battler would still have a chance to get out of the island through Rudolf. But I dont believe Rudolf survived sadly. He was shot by an intact winchester and battler was already late even before the whole eva vs. rudolf took place. and afterwards eva still went to george whose body wasnt too far away. If battler came in the time-span when Rudolf might still have been alive, I think he would have met eva. 8.Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler? Could you say again where he used we? I just dont remember what scene you're referring too. 9. "Or was he actually able to meet Battler before Eva caught up with him?" Well if we accept ep 7 to be the truth, then he didnt, because rudolf wondered why battler is late and expected it to be him just before eva arrived. 10. "why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived?" I think there is no reason but just to confuse the viewer. Edit: maybe there IS a reason, like I said down below. 11. Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her? since kyries gun is broken, I think there is a big possibility she survived. Wasnt eva also shot by kyrie? I have to take a look at the scene again... 12.Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her? Lets think about the state Beato was in - she was really miserable. I find it hard to believe that she would so openly confess everything to him when in the games, she always wanted him to understand her by himself. And this scene from ep 5 "I knew a man who believed with all his heart and the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon his belief" (beato) is stuck in my head. Since it refers to seemingly nothing I can only assume it refers to prime. So I guess he and Sayo still met somehow in Prime, but I dont think he would immediately say: "Ok, lets go then". That just doesnt sound like it. It sounds more like alcohol will help you now XD 13.Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality? Hmm, I still think she died before being able to leave the island. "If you died without being satisfied, wouldnt that be pretty bad?" (more or less quoted ep 4, mammon). But if we assume that they made it out alive, I have no answer until now. I doubt Battler would leave someone behind though. 14. to let beato survive we have to assume: "the bullet did not hit (faulty Winchester) or she survived anyway with injuries that caused blood to trickle from her mouth (as the narration tells us)." I agree, Beato survived. I think its a combi out of both what you said - the winchester probably hit but missed any life-threatening parts. actually, that might be it...!!!!You just gave me a good idea! What do you think?: She was injured after that, but still could move about. She made it for quite a long time (the second day) but ultimately she died of blood loss (I dont know, Im unsure as long as we dont have hints like a similar situation like this happening before). Then occurs the whole Battler-locked-room-phase, but it wasnt that she intended to leave him there. It was the blood-loss that resulted in battler not "solving the puzzle before beato died" in him "being too late". maybe carring something heavy might even have done the trick. So Beato in the end, wouldnt have killed anyone on purpose... Well I guess that could be, but Im still doubtful as long as I cant find a hint that shows/talks about someone living a long time throughan injury. In any case, I think its a combi of both. We probably have to assume she is injured. 15. "In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply?" This!!! That gave me such a hard time. I also asked myself that because I wanted to be able to doubt the Eva-survives-part. But heres why I decided we can be pretty sure everything is true: in ep 7, bern says there is no game-master. And without a game-master there cant be any falsehoods. here I dont believe bern is lying btw. And the manga in ep 8 is pretty much confirming everything Ange saw in ep 7 too. So if we start to doubt that, I dont think reasoning is possible anymore... MY QUESTION: And let me add a question too: the battler we know leaves two days later : ON A MOTORBOAT? On his OWN? he hates these things! I cant imagine him just leaving on one on his own, considering the way battler acted only two days ago. Thats what also made me doubt he ever left the island like touya said. To me it felt like "be careful!, here we give you a clue that it cant be true". What other purpose would Battlers "I hate vehicles" have? I read it as a clue. Quote:
I like this:"When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming." That actually sounds just as sad as it is. Yes, she certainly did back then and she will never have the chance to make it right ;_; So Id really like to have seen a bit more of that scene, more of her reaction. Maybe she and battler making up or something. Im so sad that the scene was only so short... And no, the 8th game was no lie. I still think they are all souls and when battler says in ep 8 something like "this is no normal gameboard, on halloween the souls of the dead are really close to the world of the living" I really think he means it -that Ange meets her true family. It sure didnt happen as battler presented it, but I think he let the pieces do and say what they wanted to say so they could say goodbye. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-19 at 21:03. |
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2015-03-20, 03:04
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Link #34965 | ||||||||||||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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If Battler was locked into a room on Prime, and perhaps even died there, can you explain how does this room actually work? If it was just a chain-lock, Battler could leave any time he wanted. In the real world he would not be binded by any red truth. Beato also would need to seal it somehow from the outside. Maybe Beatrice would kill him if he left with the wrong solution, as the witch who lurked in the darkness outside the room? I believe you theorised that Battler was actually locked in the same cell as Kyrie's group was in EP4. This would explain why Battler could only leave by someone's else's approval, making the closed room challenge and being locked within a thing in Battler's mind. Quote:
I wrote a post about my theory of the nature of the meta world on the last page, did you read it? I suppose Ange witnessing the events of EP8 is the "Ange-paradox" you mentioned before. My theory is that Ange really goes on a journey into the meta world when she is on the brink of suicide, and everything she experiences as Ange-Beatrice is real in a sense. EP8 is created by meta Battler and used to guide Ange on her spiritual journey, until she finally returns to the rooftop in her world and decides not to jump. It is paradoxical and magical, but I think belief in some sort of real magic existing in Ange's world is a healthy attitude in making sense of Umineko. It is a story after all, and it is mystery strictly when concerned with Beatrice's games and perhaps not so much outside the catbox. Where did you get the idea that Ikuko is 90? I believe Touya and Ikuko are at most in their fifties when they meet with Yukari. But my theory is that Ikuko is actually Featherine, or at least her king piece, which is why she looks so youthful. Ikuko is either immortal or Featherine just likes to keep her looking young. Yeah, I gave in to the witch in this case. Quote:
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-20 at 03:26. |
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2015-03-20, 06:45
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Link #34966 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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I also saw at the end of your post in Tumblr that you were planning on going through hints that supposedly imply Rosa is Beatrice, so I'm looking forward for that one. If you'd like we could do a critical analysis of both theories sometime in the future, but not anytime soon. Quote:
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By the way, have you also read Kotogohushi hen? I have only read the summary, but at the end of it, the arc was actually one of many versions of the legend, which seems very similar to Umineko, as if to conceal the truth about Oyashiro. Not only that but the Hanyuu described in Kamikanshi hen seemed quite immature for stealing a cup of rice in the past, compared to the Hanyuu presented in Kotogohushi hen. But that would mean that a Voyager like Hanyuu should be able to interact in the real world directly (she did get a kid). So here's a question, do you think that Voyagers can also interact in the real world to the same extent as a Creator, as in like an actual person, rather than a cat (for all we know it is just a cat and it being Bernkastel might be in someone's imagination) or "ghost" (since none of Okonogi's men (most likely former Yamainu due to their designated numbers) saw Bern). Or as said at the end of Kotogohushi hen, it is just one of many stories and that Hanyuu may not have even existed and was only a parasite as stated in Kamikanshi hen, meaning that Kotogohushi hen is a magical interpretation like how some parts of Umineko are fictional? Random Question: Am I the only one that ships Battler x Ikuko? For some reason, I just can't see Beatrice x Battler happening regardless if Beatrice is Rosa or Yasu. It would be interesting to see in the manga if they get married, had some kids, show up in front of Ange and she learns about it. Ange's reaction would be priceless if this would ever happen (I hope it does). |
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2015-03-20, 07:52
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Link #34967 | |||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Ep 5 is far more random the way I see it...I somehow accept that dlanor can randomly forbit a truth to be used if it doesnt create a logic error. its like that: there was never a real logic error to begin with, they just made battler think the windows were sealed as well. so if they use the red truth to seal all the windows, that would make them cause the logic error. They can only use red on one and seal the blue for the other one. But I dont think they completely sealed it after all, they just said they would take a look at it, but it might take some time...and two or more applications at a time wouldnt be allowed.they arent obliged to accept any blue truth anyways since their opponent is battler and not gaap or beato... And also - I think she DID expose her heart in the end of ep 6. Like featherine said: "its possible, but this trick cant be used a second time", "this will expose beatos heart". I think that this "exposing" and "cant be used a second time" is not really completely true, but more like ryukishi saying: "come on, you have to get it at least NOW, I cant make it any more obvious who the culprit is...". So even though its hidden enough, the trick "somehow" still exposes beatos heart since there can be only one solution. and this trick leads to erika finding out about sayo in the end (together with the red truth at the end). But Imo, this was battlers set up from the very beginning - using some kanon/shannon trick by having them vanish as a result from the lovers duel. I dont think the logic error was intended this way though, as the goals battler says he has for this game are completely different from what happens in the end (apart from showing he understood her heart)... Quote:
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but you made me think here...maybe I still have to revise my theory a bit...Quote:
"Maybe that's why piece Battler struggled in the room more than he had to." Hmm, it was said that in the vn the moment battlers heart died (=the moment he got the ring) he left the locked room on purpose because no matter what, he just didnt want to "die" in the locked room. Correct me if Im wrong please, but doesnt this mean that all his struggles in the room happened before he got the ring? When meta-battlers soul is in the room ("possessing" his piece or whatever) he still struggled to get out, which is one of the reasons I think he actually didnt wait for Beato to solve everything for him and just wanted to accept the new beato as her daughter (even if he still hoped for her to remember). After he "died" he was not able to do anything any more and only lay on the floor until kanon arrived. so that means he wouldnt be able to destroy the room any further after getting the ring the scenes in the "creepy room" are occuring on an even deeper level where he "dreams" (or something similar) of everything that happened before without knowing how he actually got there. And in this room the chain cant even be unset - different from what was still possible in the room where battler went to immediately after having caused the logic error - even though he still cant leave, in this room the chain can at least be unset. Later though on the "deeper" level, this chain-lock is replaced by a true chain that doesnt even allow for one to open the door at all, and so are the windows. That fits with erikas "we're going to lock your heart in your locked room" "you wont be able to get out". This comment of Erika would be completely useless, because he is already locked in the locked room he created. What more do you want?XD It fits though if we think how the windows and the chain-lock change. Quote:
1.every hint in umineko has a purpose (I already saw later in this post that you agree with me here, so I dont think I have to explain again why I think so  ) -> battlers memories in the locked room seemingly have no purpose and refer to nothing -> battlers memories must refer to prime -> battler says he remembers a horrible family gathering when he was very young -> its stated battler was never betrayed before coming to rokkenjima, asumu gave him all the love she could and never was there any mention of a horrible familiy gathering (but every hint must have a reference and a meaning so this family gathering must refer to something relevant and something we know of) + battler spent years in this closed room -> battler refers to the only horrible family-gathering we know of and that is prime when he was "still only" 18 years old and further: 2.battler remembered dozing off after the family gathering + battler is always seen drinking alcohol after he knew that everyone had died (again: and all the hints have a meaning) [Edit:] + (see also big hint down below) [End of Edit]-> battler was probably getting drunk 3.battler remembers being put to sleep in a room he didnt know - > someone must have "put him to sleep" in prime -> there arent many suspects as we reasoned before -> its probably sayo 4.the "room he didnt know"-> what room do we know he definitely doesnt know? - > we only know of one such room, because for all the rooms in the guest-house and the mansion, its at least possible he knew them (for example by playing hide-and-seek in the mansion - they did this when they were children)+ since I do think the part with the "he didnt know" would be unnecessary if it was such a room in the mansion or the guest-house + no hints are unnecessary -> there is only one room left 5. he says him and chain-locks dont go well together, "you can do something about all the other ones, but you cant do anything about chain-locks" -> but in fact you can just undo every chain lock in the rooms of the mansion or the guest-house from the inside -> it cant refer to a normal chain lock-> it must refer to a chain-lock that is applied from the outside-> room under kuwadorian fits since its basically a prison -with devices to keep people confined in there too btw - so Im not sure if a "chain lock" might even refer to one of those - that would be hinted at after all by all the nice experiences battler already has with chains, for example the collar in episode 2 (ending)+ 6(in the locked room), but here Im unsure 6.it was shown in ep 4 that iron bars are blocking the way + kyries comment to that: "they sure didnt want us to leave" + no hint is unnecessary -> its impossible to reach that room easily or to get out, thats what the iron bars are representing 7. And after all: no hint is unnecessary + kyries group was probably never in this cell -> what is the room that is explicitly said to be directly under the kuwadorian referring to? It seemingly doesnt refer to anything -> it must refer to prime (now dont get me wrong, Im not saying every random room must be important, but this one is waaaay too striking with how its described in detaill, what the pieces are saying about the room, how there are so many hints at future events depicted in the room in the manga, how its shown later in the story too) So there are... 8.....many other hints that tell us something is up with this room, but ill leave it at that for now. Just this one: I still want to mention it because different from the other hints I never wrote it here in the forum: 9. there are no unnecessary hints + battler tries everything to get out of the room in ep 6, he even considered berns cutting-yourself-to-pieces-method + "me and chain locks dont go welll together, you cant do anything about chain locks" ->in prime he used all the methods available to get out, but there isnt anything that works. only cutting yourself to pieces would work. well that somehow would make me believe that maybe the chain-lock IS referring to one of the confining devices and not just to a lock that is keeping the door of the room shut, but Im still careful here. ((9.)) also...-but here I dont mean to say anything with it since Im completely unsure about this... because other than point 1-9, I cant "reason" about it- but theres this page and a picture in ep 6 manga (shortly before hes locked in the room) that might (subjunctive!!) hint at what I mean... thats it. after reading your post I thought for a while: but what if battler doesnt mean he has a problem with chain-locks because he himself was locked up but that he has a problem with them because sayo locked herself up somewhere and he didnt want to leave her alone? then he would survive and sayo would die and then a normal room in the mansion is sufficient of course, cause you cant unlock chain-locks from the outside. But then I threw that idea away because when you're on the outside, you can just get a tool to open every chain lock if you want to, like kanon did in ep 1. "you cant do anything about them" wouldnt fit. you can only have a problem if you're inside a room. well, those are my thoughts. and since noone could show me what this hinted at while taking into the account all the hints, Im sticking to my locked-room-theory until someone can do just that. Quote:
And I think the fantasy scenes are just as important as , if not even more important than the real scenes. What I meant was:" it must be fantasy somehow at least, because it just cant happen the way it happened" (but I did read your other post now so this could really be explained in a different way). last part Im quoting though, if it was written by Touya - I was thinking like that because featherine was participating in this story. and they were saying something like "featherine was looking differently before and the "tiara" is protecting her because she lost her memories once". So thats why I thought touya was involved in ep 8....Im interested in this: "there's merit in thinking that Touya created at least some version of Twilight of the Golden Witch". How would that version look like?Quote:
And with the rest what you say here: Im absolutely agreeing in everything! those were my very first thoughts: going on a spiritual journey. I still consider it one of the most logical explanations, and Im not 100% sure of the "Ange is dead" theory. But thats what I thought about as well, the meta being something that can be "entered" shortly before or after ones death. And I also agree that the mystery is concerning beatos games, as they are the core of the story and leads us to the "who why and how". she is imitating mystery-novels after all. Quote:
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but you REALLY made me think here: if beato really still wanted for battler to accept her as the criminal and poses her question, she might not have done it out of being "miserable" like I said. the motive might have actually been this: ep 5 beato when natsuhi was framed to be the culprit: "Why wont you just believe in me? Just make me the culprit! I knew a man who believed with all of his heart and the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon this belief. I will never let a human be the culprit". She might have actually acted the part of the bad guy to help battler there, because obviously, he would find it hard to accept that his family members killed everyone (the worst red truth for him). And hint here - her acting skills are also referred to very often. Maybe she really wanted to make herself be seen as the culprit not not just because out of self-interest but because she doenst want to let him think that "a human is the culprit". imo, her acting might have gone a bit too far though (do we have a hint for that? Edit: I guess we have plenty), so she might have caused something she didnt intend to do. After that: battler didnt make it, he didnt understand her (and it would be hard to see anyone else as the culprit in the first place because technically, rudolf and kyrie are the murderers). he couldnt think of anything else even though she urged him to like in ep 3 "please, dont stop thinking. there must be something else you can think of". but he couldnt (this scene just screams prime the way its presented btw). Also please consider this: she urged him to think of something else in ep 3 like I mentioned above, to what battler says: "I cant. My head hurts". And you remember how I said he was probably getting drunk before on alcohol before he was "put to sleep in a room he didnt know"? "my head hurts" actually makes sense that way - if he has a hangover! so we can imagine the situation those two were in quite clearly! It fits so well! so, in the end beato died without peace and while still thinking that ultimately it was her that caused everything. and maybe she died unexpectedly of blood-loss and didnt end her "acting like the bad guy" in time. For which she apologizes in ep 5 at the end (the last thing she says before dying). but dont get me wrong: I still wont say that beato is a saint, I still think we have to keep in mind that everything she does in the beginning is a mixture of love and hate. Thats my take on it until now. What do you think? Quote:
but for the "thank you" part its hard to think about something that could refer to prime. also, we'd have to have hints that battler did something that benefittet her. in the game, I just thought she was thankful to him for fighting for her and trying to understand her until his death. but in prime - I think he gave up in the end (ep 3 hints like for example "she died because I was useless"). I have to think about that...Quote:
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and whats right and whats wrong is hard to answer I think. but the reason you mentioned - that it was connected to asumu and the fact they say he's always been like that (even before coming to rokkenjima in 1986), and that his fear is repeated sooo often - even in the first and second game, that (following the standard theory, not yours) is not written by touya, I really am inclined to think its -> I think like this: why do they mention asumus habbit and battler copying it? + no hint is unnecessary -> battler has a fear since he was a child (not just on the game-boards) -> battler hates motorboats or anything like that very much (its not just a gag) even before coming to rokkenjima-> he would never leave on one on his own. well if beato was bleading to death it would surely be another story, but for reasons I mentioned above I doubt that beato ever left the island alive, not even the few meters they would have made on the boat Quote:
"I think Kyrie is a very interesting parallel to Beatrice about the dangers of thinking about real life as a game and other people as pieces on a board." But she is at the end, quite different from beato, cause beato is using basically every kind of "noise" that kyrie excludes from her chessboard-thinking. someone making the wrong decisions on a whim, someone not fighting to win, emotions...these are all things she doesnt think about and thats why battler has such a problem in ep 1. kyrie is more like the "orthogonal" to beato maybe thats why beato loses the game in prime? "Kyrie worried about her daughter until the very end" was a white lie Eva wrote on the lid of the catbox." Thanks for clarifying this point. But doesnt it basically say that Eva did not influence the way the events in ep 7 tea party were presented? Now, we still have to talk about your other theory, but Ill do that another time, because Im actually a busy But I think you already helped me realize some very interesting new stuff already. Maybe we can even combine your theory and all the facts about higurashi together with my theory
Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-20 at 11:56. |
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2015-03-20, 10:24
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Link #34968 | |
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2015-03-20, 12:56
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Link #34969 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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Like, the Battler we get to know over the course of so many episodes is basically a fictional character that attains meta-awareness, but who wrote that character? Sayo. When did she write him? Technically, probably before she met him again in 1986, because seriously there is no way she had the time AFTER the incident and the consistent death of Eva implies she didn't foresee the actual conclusion of events when she was writing. If Sayo wrote Beatrice before meeting him in 1986, then the Battler she wrote is basically the 12 year old Battler he knows put in an 18 year old body. Which...explains a lot about Battler's personality, doesn't it? She even made him the Detective and POV character so that he was the one character beyond suspicion. The guaranteed innocent, who even comes dressing in white like a hero deserving a matching horse. The Battler we know in Umineko is an idealized representation of him. He was definitely afraid of motorboats and plans when he was 12, but did he retain that fear when he was 18? Was he as heroic and naive and sweet and bullheaded as Sayo imagined him to be? Was he actually the true innocent or was he the murderous Black Battler? Not even Battler himself knows. As Touya, all he has to go on is broken memories and the characterization Sayo already established; the characterization the community of Witch Hunters accepts as canon. Not even Ange really knows, because she met him fairly rarely, and only in a specific context, which is now shaded by nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses. The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was.
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2015-03-20, 13:10
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Ange: "Dad and Mom and Onii-chan...no one comes home!!" Quote:
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I think Hanyuu did exist as a physical being at some point, and had a daughter with a human, with the bloodline eventually giving birth to Furude Rika. I think for a voyager to have a physical existence and be able to affect humans outside their thoughts, they need to be written into the fragment by someone on Featherine's level. Maybe this is what transferring from the fifth dimension is about? I see Ikuko and Touya's relationship as a similar event as Hanyuu and Furude Riku's, where the creator's piece falls in love with a human. Also, Hanyuu might have gained voyager abilities only after her initial lifespan where she gave birth to Furude Ouka, and used it for the first time when she brought Rika's consciousness with her to another fragment after Rika's first death. Quote:
In an interview it was said that Ryukishi originally intended for them to be married, but part of the staff didn't like it so he changed it. While doubtful, if Ikuko is secretly Yasuda... Quote:
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About Touya's Twilight of the Golden Witch, maybe it's the Halloween party and what would have happened if Bern hadn't interrupted the game. Perhaps the family would have continued their time together peacefully until Beatrice would present Ange her candy trick riddle with the choice of Magic or Trick. Quote:
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2015-03-20, 14:02
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And actually, his naivity and the fact that he really didnt change at all like you described would actually fit very well. "The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was." If that was the case that would be pretty terrible...I wouldnt put it past Ryukishi though...Im open-minded now for every theory that explains the meta now, because, I revised my theory a bit - Im still sticking to "battler in the room", but I found hints that say he actually got out somehow...or whoever got out then. and I also still stick to my dawn=magic ending theory, but there is now the question again: what is the meta? when did the meta appear...when was the meta created? I also think bluemails ideas are worth to take a look at. so your opinion would be: when beato created her game-baord - when she wrote the story, the meta was created. And I can see that be true somehow, but there are some questions I have to ask now: 1. why is the meta giving us clues about what really happened in prime? 2. who is touya at the end? 3. why are they talking about stuff like: "wouldnt it be bad if you died without being satisfied?" doesnt that sound like we have to get clues about someones (=beatos) death in the meta? but beato was still alive when she wrote the stories. or do you think she somehow included her death in it? 4.what is ange then? and how do we even know eva survived? 5. how can beato reach a satisfying conclusion? It would be like self-therapy, do you think that would be enough? 6. how can we even be sure anything is real at all? I think there are more questions that would come up if I go on thinking. Those are only the ones I spontaneously came up with. But wed have to find answers that make sense to these anyways so we might start with them as well. I especially find it hard to integrate the eva and ange story here. |
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2015-03-20, 16:09
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But as we know, battler also wanted more than just that and in the end erika screwed up the whole game/story. So the result was that a similar trick battler intended in the beginning was used and it still worked somehow to prove that he understood beato, but nothing else did. "Its the pieces job to understand their master even if he cant directly tell them anymore" - hint similar to episode 5, where the pieces also were fighting for beato (mainly the beato-piece) - they still brought the game to the "minimum-end" that was possible. And that leaves more freedom now to dedicate a game primarily to Ange. Thats how I see it at least. By the way -thats what I think battler refers to with his golden truth when he said: even though you think this game should not have been made anymore, its the game I dedicate to ange. If he wanted to, battler could leave the world now, since he (indirectly) had already shown he understood beato in game 6. Quote:
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I really do not want to go there again how the relation between game-master and piece work XD Im just gonna state what I believe: ep 8: player-ange is sometimes taking over piece-ange. And imagine that player-ange, through piece-ange, would now be stuck somehow and couldnt go back to her original body ~ situation of game 6. thats why meta-battler made an effort to get out of the room and thats why I think its doubtful that he wanted beato to get him out. but it might also be that in between he changed his strategy and waited for her to solve the room. I would be fine with this. Quote:
He would refer at a family-gathering that is not meaningful at all, it would have no consequences except for this one locked room, and that would make it a completely unnecessary hint. Like I said: I dont think we are supposed to imagine some scene that could have happened, but we are only supposed to reconstruct and put the hints together. This hint would be leading nowhere, wed have to invent some scene ourselves. Almost everything in the course of the games refers to prime - if we think this hint doesnt refer to prime, its like all the hints go straight forward and only this one is turning left I know where the main problem with my theory lies: I said it meant battler died in the room. And that causes a problem with many other theories out there. But its really like you said: there are no hints that go nowhere, everything has a purpose. we should start from there. Maybe its a bit easier to accept if I said even though I still believe in my theory, battler didnt die there?Quote:
I too have to look at the hide and seek - comment again. And I agree we cant be sure he does not not know any other room. thats why I said: its the difference between this room and the other ones is that its at least "possible" for battle to know all the other rooms. And then we have something similar as before: the hint "a room he didnt know" would be there in vain. Its not necessary because it would just be a random room in the mansion, if he knows this room or not wouldnt matter at all right? And anyways, if it was a room in the mansion the chain-lock-comment doesnt make sense..But youre right when you say: Quote:
Anyways, I also thought about solving this comment with "he refers to the chain-locks during the games". But that doesnt make sense, because its not just the chain-locks that give him problems in the games, the normal locks are just the same. But he said "you can do something about the other ones, but you cant do anything with chain locks". In the course of the games, he even has more problems with normal locks than with chain-locks. most of the time normal locks either mean he has to suspect someone or he isnt able to solve the riddle with them at all or its giving him at least some trouble, like the locked-room-chain. there were enough locked rooms without a chain-lock that gave him a hard time, and the ones with the chain-locks werent any harder to explain than usual locks. When I thought about it, the comment made no sense when interpreting it this way. But I dont know if you have another idea? There would still be many other hints thogh And like you see - ep 4: the tests, ep 3: the creation of the game-board + the urging of beato to keep thinking + and probably the acting of beato, ep 3: eva survives, ep 5: beato dies...everything that happens in the meta is based on events that happen in the real world, even if abstracted (like in alice in wonderland-I dont want to say its a hallucination or a dream though). so ep 6: battler in a closed room. Im just saying it fits, I didnt think "battler in a closed room" -> must be prime. I found all the clues mentioned in my last post before I realized that everything in the meta refers to something that happened in prime. I made a mistake - battler probably did not die sorry long text follows, but i think it will be interesting, it feels like this childrens game hit the pot when they scream "hot hot hot" (or maybe "coooold") Now, theres the problem with battler dying in the room. I thought about this a bit more and if I continue based on the fact that "no unnecessary hint" then it turns out he didnt die there! I havent yet thought about the consequences and still have to connect it with the rest, so the following points might be a bit "frail", but I think I found enough hints that point to that. Again, your opinion would be hightly appreciated!!: So Battler didnt die there, but he sure stayed there a long time. 1.kanon: "the time was flowing different here, who knows how many years have passed" -> no unnecessary hints => battler couldnt leave the room immediately, he probably spent years there, just like kanon said (i know this causes problems but still, there are a ton of hints...) Also this explains why we all feel like the "creepy room" in ep 6 is so close to reality. kanon says: in the world of the pieces its only a few minutes but here in this room its been years. so we get really close to reality in this room, and time starts to flow normally again like in the real world (though we're still in the locked room from before, its not reality yet). and now look at point 7.) please. because that explains why battler feels a discrepance between body (old) and mind (young) at the end. if the world of the pieces is really going much slower than reality-time, that makes sense (and theres even more hints for that!) 2.ep 6 battler is locked in the closed room -his thoughts are "I wont die, I wont die" => these thoughts are "somewhat" (not completely though) out of place, but just look at the scene in the manga and youll probably understand what I mean -> Imo refers to battlers thoughts in prime 3.kanons "wont you go back?" (ep 6, after the rescue) too is somehow out of place -> battler has the chance to still make it back in prime too 4. a hint is shown when battler understands the truth about the world -we rapidly see scenes flash by - not randomly, they are exactly the same in the manga: one of the scenes show kyrie talking to battler: "im jealous of you. I want to be able to leave too" + there are no unnecessary hints -> what would she be referring to? battler can "leave" (of course that would also fit everyone else's theory, but the hints for the locked room would be left hanging) 5. the by far! biggest clue that at that point battler is not definitely dead is the following: in ep 5 vigilia and silent-beato talk, virgilia: "are you afraid?" beato nods. virgilia: "its time now to find out whats in the cat-box. if the cat is dead lay it to rest, if the cat is alive, you have to nurse it back to health. its time for you to die now, beatrice" -> Ill state it bluntly: battler is the cat, beato doesnt know if he is alive or dead in real life because she died before him, beato fears that he is dead because she locked him in the room. "beato will die now" -she does in ep 5 like she did in prime. "the cat-box opening" virgilia mentions is an abstract way of talking about what will happen at the end of episode 5 - and the result for silent-beato of that cat-box-opening was that battler had died. She too dies, but battler "comes back to life" without beato knowing it. He still wants to let her know, but shes already dead. you see how virgilia is actually causing the situation by giving battler a red truth and then disappearing. she wanted the things that happened at the end of ep 5 to happen. now, I really have to think what that exactly means for prime, I just have to "translate" that for prime. but until now I can only say: battler survived even though beato was not only fearing he died/would die, but she even strongly believed in prime he died/would die. 6. another two big clues are the following: when battler is found by ikuko he thinks: "Im 18. I actually had no idea if I was 18, but thats what came to mind" -> why would his age be so important? -> no unnecessary clues - > he is not 18 any more by that time. Also... 7. ...ep 8, battler is found by ikuko : "it felt like only my mind had stayed young and my body had grown old" -> no unnecessary clues - > he really has grown older 8. I already mentioned it, but in the manga, we always see a calender, but we never see the year + no unnecessary clues -> the year is not 1986 9. someone here mentioned how its not possible that they already had internet by that time, he wondered if touya had spent so much time there -> no, its just that its not 1986 any more 10. there is still something off about ikuko, but in the last scene it wouldnt be that surprising anymore that she still seems to be so young, there were no decades that have passed, so what I said earlier, about her being 70, is probably not true 11. battler thinks about his memories in the locked room as something that occured "when I was very young" -that doesnt only refer to the years that pass in the locked room, that also refers to how he thinks about it as the prime-battler. after all, in this room reality and meta are almost converging. that actually explains why battler thinks directly about what happened in prime, I think we only got hints and hidden messages until that point right? 12. ep 6, the pieces: "battler cant make it out of his own, no matter how hard he tries", they repeat that quite often and drive down the point that someone has to come to help him -> in prime who is coming? ikuko? (wild guess) 13. battlers chain-collar in ep 6 is mentioned to be quite long, it actually reaches far out into the floor + no unnecessary hints -> why would ryukishi make the chain this long? I think here we find the reason how battler still survived I think thats too much to just ignore. I still have to think about open questions now, because that sure has many implications... It also sounds like the meta is occuring "while" battler is in the locked room. But Im unsure here, I really still have to think things through. If I can, I think wed get close to understand what the meta is. Also with all the hints I based them on the thought: almost everything is referring to prime (I realized that before through all the other hints) but I didnt mention it above on purpose, because someone might think Im forcing the theory through that. So I didnt mention it, to show the hints are still there. But what do you think? Stupid theory? Are there arguments against it? last four things I want to mention: 14. this point is a bit vague, but in the meta battler can get out of the game-world once he shows he understood everything about beato. if I think that everything refers to the real world, if I think that the I can substitue "game-word" with "locked room", if I think that the meta occurs "while" battler is in the locked room, I wonder how it works in the real world? how can he get out of the room once he shows he understood beato? And who was it that let battler out? I have a question: was it shown in ep 7 tea party that genji had died? (this is really just a random guess)...i also already suspected ikuko... 15. battler still has the possibility to get out of the room, the moment this possibility is blocked it becomes true hell - the possibility is blocked not in prime, but in the meta-world when erika doesnt let him get out anymore. I think thats why she and beato call the chapel where the marriage is taking place "hell" 16. the fact that the locked-room-logic-error hell is a hell-of-thought seems to me to hint at battler thinking in the locked room as hard as he can to understand beato, lambda: "prepare yourself for a hell where you cant get out of if you give up on thinking". He only gets out of the locked room once he solves beatos puzzle. But I dont know how that works yet... 17. ep 5 after battler "died": "death here didnt mean true death, it meant having given up on thinking. the witches had chased him out of the game-board." I think we are really close at understanding the meta here, it might be a world of pure thought, a "space of pure reasoning"-wasnt that mentioned somewhere in ep 5? The world of thought battler enters while in the locked-room. and that would give the "sea of oblivion" a new meaning...Does that make sense? Im still thinking... Quote:
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yeah, that would make ikuko a really old woman. but like I explained, maybe I was wrong and she is not that old...Quote:
Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-20 at 17:43. |
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2015-03-20, 16:51
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Link #34973 | |||
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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1. Ryukishi is lying. 2. Ryukishi is only showing a layer in the story. Sayotrice exists but in the form of fiction within Umineko. After all Yasu is the core of Umineko in both theories regardless. 3. Ryukishi changed his mind and decided to show the solution anyway. It is such a shame that a lot of Rosatrice fans dismiss these interviews and the manga version as non-canon, as it really shows that they never even think. Quote:
I have also taken a look at your other post concerning the number of bodies. The red No more than 17 human beings exist on this island!! doesn't necessarily count Shannon and Kanon as one, but doesn't it say that at maximum that there are could be 17 people? I think the statement doesn't prove it, but doesn't disprove it either. Also the reds concerning three people doesn't say much. The most interesting part of the post is your take on the 18th human being red that Erika said. I haven't seen anyone tackle this red on the Sayotrice perspective. I think this red is on the same level of truth with the red concerning corpses in my opinion. Quote:
There are three ways to interpret the ending in EP8 with Battler and Beatrice escaping. Rosatrice: In game 2, after learning everything Battler was able to convince Rosa to escape with Maria. The fantasy scene where Battler and Beatrice left is the culprit's fantasy if they make it out alive. Unfortunately they don't, but only Battler did. Sayotrice: The ending could be from either Game 2 or Prime. Sayo's fantasy before shooting herself or before getting killed by Kyrie and Rudolf. It could also be Battler's fantasy as well. Prime: Didn't happen. Just a fantasy created to be an end to all the talks about Rokkenjima incident. Battler may have been on his own when he escaped after separating from Eva. But until we see the complete end of EP8 manga, I have nothing left to say concerning this issue as they might also go into better detail as to how Battler escaped the island and if Battler really met Beatrice or if she really got killed by Kyrie and Rudolf. |
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2015-03-21, 00:47
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Link #34974 | ||||||||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Sometimes it really sucks living out in the inaka...
Even though the capital city here has an Animate, they always get the next issue of GanGan 2-3 days late  Quote:
"Since I created this tale out of the wish to be with you, the goal for this world is already fulfilled. So I ask you to weave what lies ahead. The story of me and you from now on..." (Note that I am quoting from the manga, since my current laptop can't even handle Umineko properly) Then Battler closes the ceremony by saying that he will end the story as the epitaph to the Golden Land tells, especially for his most beloved witch Beatrice to rest peacefully. Quote:
Meta-Battler even admits that his approach towards Ange in EP8 was wrong and that he tried to push his idea on Ange in the beginning because he thought that he knew better than her. His game could be overthrown by Bern because he was acting too much like Beato did, making Ange struggle even more. Quote:
Tohya is technically Battler, but at the same time he is not. The story tells us that, due to the injuries and trauma he sustained, Ushiromiya Battler is gone and won't ever return in the form he existed before the incident. In that sense, the Battler of the 1998 conference is again a catbox. Since even Tohya is unable to perfectly recall the thoughts and events concerning that day, they are forever lost to ambiguity. No person who met Battler on that day is alive at the point where Ange ponders these questions, so in a way Battler is truly dead. Quote:
According to the narrative the meta-world was not created by Beato creating the gameboard. The Capital of Books plot in EP8 makes clear that, within the fantasy-narrative, the world of witches and magical beings is a layer of itself. The keepers of the library collect stories, which are basically selective events from "our world" and store them for the highest witches to entertain themselves. Then there are several offices which are there to ensure that a proper structure is maintained when reading and reenacting these stories. Some of these stories seem to be influenced by the witches themselves - e.g. Featherine's game against Lambda in which Bernkastel was born - because Featherine says something along the lines of, the most interesting tales are those woven by the children of men themselves. Beato became famous in the capital because she managed to create a gameboard with a set of rules that allowed for an endless number of tales to be created around it. Quote:
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This is especially made clear in EP5 and 6, where we actually enter the narrative at a point where the gameboard story has already advanced, but we are going back, rereading the story while commenting on it. Quote:
Concerning Eva? The narrative tells us so, doubting such a basic element would basically give way to chaos and allow everything to be possible. Quote:
Beatrice died in October 1986. The Golden Land that she created was completely wiped out. All your relatives who were kept alive by the Golden Land were wiped out as well Your father and mother and of course Battler will never again return to where you are to call out your name The only satisfying conclusion that Beato can reach is that she can be kept alive as a positive figure in stories and be freed from the burden of punishing the Ushiromiya family that she put on herself. Quote:
How can we be sure that the murderer in Murder of Roger Ackroyd was not covering for another actual culprit? How can we be sure that Dune is not actually the hallucination of somebody dying in a desert? How can we be sure that Bastian didn't just die of starvation up in the attic while reading the Neverending Story? One of the things that is also highlighted by Chiru is that there has to be a certain level of trust between the author and the reader. If that doesn't exist then the whole narrative just falls apart. |
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2015-03-21, 05:49
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Link #34975 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-21 at 06:05. |
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2015-03-21, 06:01
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Link #34976 |
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I could answer to some of your new posts more specifically later, but for now I decided to explain how the meta world connects to reality in a little more detailed manner, spanning events from before Higurashi to the end of Umineko. It's in a summarised form, but I'm sure you can connect the dots to make a larger picture.
While I might appear to present Touya heavily similar to Battler in this post, I don't mean all their thoughts are the same. Often when I say Touya, I basically mean "Touya as Battler", or "Touya affected by the Battler side of him". Battler = meta Battler in purgatory, Touya = living Battler in the human world. Origins
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
Umineko no Naku Koro ni
I don't remember every details of the legend of Oyashiro-sama from Higurashi, and it isn't confirmed when Featherine's memory device was damaged, but I assume it was while Hanyuu lived in Hinamizawa, possibly caused by Furude Ouka. I'm also not sure about the nature of Lambdadelta and Hanyuu's game nor what the actual logic error was. I assume the only way to "time travel" is to enter an earlier time period in another fragment. However, Ange's spirit was able to return to her before she jumped, even though her assumed death had affected Touya and Battler in the future in a way that they wanted to help her reach that decision. Is it possible that Ange did initially die, but with her powers as a witch she painted her past with a new truth, causing it to not have happened after all, somehow? Or did she branch it into a new fragment, so there are now two fragments where Battler survived, where the only difference is that in the other one Ange is alive and able to meet Touya? Also, I believe Kyrie might have been turned into Lambda's piece, an agent to the certain end of October 5th. Her story in EP6 resembled situations where Lambda had contacted humans before, as Kyrie said she had the certain willpower to kill Asumu, and her wish came true. In every fragment Asumu dies in 1980, therefore Battler never returns to Sayo, therefore Sayo always creates her murder game, and if Sayo's plan fails, Kyrie certainly brings about the explosion accident. |
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2015-03-21, 08:37
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Link #34977 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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2015-03-21, 11:13
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Link #34978 | |||||||||||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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For Bluemail.
Forgive me if I cut your explanation for space reasons. I found it really interesting as a theory. It's not my Meta fave theory but I've to say I still liked it a lot and I wouldn't mind if yours were to turn out as the truth. I've only a couple of perplexities here and there. Quote:
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Honestly I hope the manga will clear this up because for me it would be more logic if Tohya were to start from Confession since he has it at hands... but the plot of the story seems to suggest the opposite so you might be right. Quote:
Umineko suggested that some forgeries might be actually other messages in the bottle. I prefer to think Tohya and Ikuko just found 2 more messages in the bottles and released them under their name, maybe twisting them a little. This would insure the first 4 games are all written by Beatrice... giving space for the other games to be written by someone else with different goals than Beatrice (Ep 5 is specifically defined as a game without love). Though I get the feeling maybe I'm misunderstanding some important bit in your theory? Quote:
My best theory is that it's because Bern said she found it by searching into the catbox, although it was a bigger catbox that the original. In order for Rokkenjima to become a catbox it has to end like the others, with the Rokkenjima incident. So yes, in a way it's due to Lambda's power but this time Bern sort of used that power to her own advantage as she specifically searched only among words that would end with death and therefore could be put in the catbox. In fact we can theorize there are countless of words that could end with no tragedy but they wouldn't be put into the catbox because the catbox exists merely because we don't know what had happened. If everyone had returned alive we would have no catbox to speak of. Quote:
If Eva hadn't shot Natsuhi Kyrie wouldn't have started shooting at people because she wouldn't have had enough bullets and because one of the other 2 people holding a gun could have killed her. If Eva had decided to come clear and not hide everything the catbox wouldn't have been established. The police could have investigated and discover that the culprits were for some murders Kyrie and Rudolf and for some others made by Eva and Hideyoshi. In a way Eva is Lamda's piece as well as when she became EvaBeatrice she was acknowledged by Lambda, while Kyrie only had Lambda's blessing in regards to Asumu's death. On a sidenote I love your posts on tumblr especially the one that you didn't link but that was about the number of people on Rokkenjima. Even if I read others' explanations previously and so I already had more or less the hang of it yours made it very clear for a not Japanese speaker like me. I've to admit when the argument about people come up I tend to send people to your post... :P I hope it's okay. Quote:
We can see that in Confession Sayo in the beginning wished for Battler to take her away but in the end her best option is to smile with him when the seagulls will cry and she'll stop speaking about leaving with him. When she talks about devoting his life to him she also talks about him inheriting the headship and it can be she thinks if Battler were to become the new head he would have to remain on Rokkenjima. Quote:
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Will, like Battler, ultimately proved he solved it to someone who stood in for Beatrice (for Battler it was chick Beato, for Will it was Clair) but it's made clear in both Ep 6 and 7 that Beatrice herself is dead so even if both of them reached the truth and tried to deliver it to her I'm not sure if it can reach her. Quote:
About Dlanor sealing the red truth in Ep 5... Very likely that's due to Knox's 2nd. Quote:
Even though the red truth that Kinzo is already dead came from the gamemaster itself in a previous phase of the game I guess only Lambda can use it to deny a theory, not a player, and Lambda is not using it. Quote:
In a normal game one would probably avoid building a theory that goes against a red truth that the GM has stated just to make sure the GM wouldn’t reject it, but as the GM isn’t interested in having that truth respected Erika felt she could build a theory that would ignore that red. Battler, as a wizard, could use that red but I guess that, as a player, for the game to be fair, he has to support his own theory and to destroy Erika's claim not with his wizard powers but with a human truth. In the previous Battler he had with Dlanor, the one he lost, Battler was told that all the red truth Erika used were backed up with human proofs. Battler’s back up for Kinzo being dead is that he can show a corpse (evidently he figured out where Kinzo’s corpse was kept hidden) but Dlanor countered with a ‘prove me with human truth that this corpse is Kinzo’s’ and as Battler can’t run a DNA test he can’t prove it by human means. In another circumstance just having a corpse with six toes and Kinzo’s clothes would have probably been accepted as proof enough that Kinzo is dead but here Kinzo’s status is debated by the two players. If Kinzo’s status remains unknown Erika’s theory still stand (I guess all the other red truths about the corpses not being moved would be rejected in the same fashion as they also go against Knox’s 2nd). Now I think that theoretically if Erika’s theory would be still standing and Battler’s theory is effective the match technically should be judged even. However even if two contrasting truths exist who hear them both can still pick up the one he prefers and the court seems to like truths of Erika’s type. Add to this that if the truth that that body belongs to Kinzo wasn’t accepted Battler would have no way to prove with human truth that he was lying when he said he saw Kinzo and therefore wouldn’t be able to prove his point of view was subjective and that he wasn’t the detective, making Battler’s theory even more weaker. We were told by Virgilia that to win in the court it wasn’t needed to destroy your opponent theory but just to built one that Lambda would like more. However, weakening the opponent theory would insure your theory is preferable. Very likely Dlanor wouldn’t manage to seal that truth if Lambda wanted to force the issue that Kinzo is dead, as Lambda could just decide to reject any theory that has a living Kinzo moving around since she’s the one in charge of deciding everything. Lambda however has proved she doesn’t care about having a theory that respects the red that Kinzo is dead as she was willing to accept Erika’s theory before Battler returned as a Wizard. I guess in a way it is fair that Lambda would allow Dlanor to deal this truth that brings advantage to Battler, as Lambda too in the past sealed a truth, causing troubles for Erika (during the battle on how Kinzo escaped from the room) who couldn’t use that red to disprove Battler’s theory. In a way this makes things even… even if more likely Lambda’s motivations are more based on her having more fun this way. Last edited by jjblue1; 2015-03-21 at 11:23. |
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2015-03-21, 13:52
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Link #34979 | ||
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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I also consider 'Meta' and 'Magic' separate because Ryukishi seems to do so. Dlanor and company aren't 'magical' characters as Beatrice's group seems to define them. They're concepts, not illusions, and don't try to present themselves as anything but their symbolic is-selfs. In my personal interpretation, the Meta-World is a sort of astral plane where all possible realities, including ours/Prime, are fictional worlds to its inhabitants; stories they can consume, edit, and create. But those same worlds share an inverse relationship; these worlds inform what is 'allowed' to exist in the sea, and the Meta-World is a conceptual space of ideas and thoughts which must spring forth from the 'normal' world(s). Not all worlds are created equal, either. The Gameboards/Fragments are, quite literally, fragments of a higher plane known as Rokkenjima Prime. When the two are contrasted, the former is always strictly fictional. Quote:
1. Because that's it's nature. It's a place where truth and lies are physical blades, and truth and love can kill a man and stop his heart dead. It's a place where boredom is poison and rules are persons. Every gameboard Beatrice was created for a single purpose: "To guide my opponent to the truth wherein he could understand my heart." This is reflected in the Meta, as the entire narrative of Umineko exists only for this purpose. For us to understand who Beatrice was, and why her life turned out the way it did. Ultimately, what happened on Prime was deemed of secondary purpose, and this is informed by how little coverage it actually got. 2. What do you mean by this? He's Battler with amnesia. The Battler who survived the incident but could not return to Ange. Or rather, a new mind that was born in this body after Battler died and stopped needing it. 3. The Meta isn't just Beatrice's writings, it's also people's reactions to it, and it's the world after her writing. Otherwise Ange could never take part in it. There's a running theme in Chiru of Beatrice as a post-mortem entity, and Battler as the person who talks about her forlornly, even if she's right by his side. Ultimately, Beatrice (Sayo) died without anyone understanding her, and this is true in the Meta-world. By the time Battler (Touya) understood anything, it was too late to do anything with that knowledge. Sayo's only hope, as a being in the grave (Clair, who is not Sayo but is described as an object representing her thoughts, like one's own memory of a person), is for someone who isn't Battler to be able to understand her using only the stories left behind. By doing so, it proves that her puzzle of self was solveable, and her existence meant something. 4. Ange is Battler's sister, who bemoans that no one came home except Eva, who she blamed for everything. We can trust this since Eva's life isn't a catbox. Rokkenjima only exists in the quantum flux is because the public doesn't know what happened, and are writing fanfictions and thinking of stories. If Eva survived as a public figure, everyone would be able to verify that. However, Ange eventually disappeared off the map, so her fate also became flux for a brief moment. She could either die in 1998, or she could fake her death and form a new life for herself. Everything after Ange stood on the rooftop was a fantasy, though I choose to believe Ange's epilogue was reality, since that's heavily implied by the text. 5. Her conclusion has been reached. She is deceased, so all that remains is for her memory and heart to be understood by the future. She is comfortable in her coffin of water and golden roses, and needn't be disturbed anymore. Let her rest. 6. You can't. That's entirely the point of the entire way in which this story was told. Even red truths only refer to fictional accounts of events. In the end, you have to decide what to trust. 'If you love me, all my words are red to you, right?' As Lambdadelta would say. We can't know what Rokkenjima Prime was like, and we can't reasonably use the Forgeries to discern that. Ryukishi's conclusion and aesop, like it or not, was that it wasn't for us to know. We can only hope to infer it by following how everyone thinks and behaves. We have to engineer a suitable truth based on what's contained in their hearts, like Ange did. The only truth you can ever verify in this universe is the existence of your own thoughts But we can learn to put our faith in another person.
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2015-03-21, 15:12
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Link #34980 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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And I got my hands on it, the new issue is here and let's see how far we get this time:
Spoiler for Episode 8 Chapter 35: Beyond the Door lies ～A Trick～, and then...:
I am excited to read your comments on it. Quote:
Ryukishi said this is the truth, he is revealing the truth through the manga. If you can't accept that, nobody here can help you with that. Quote:
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