AnimeSuki Forums

Fazeshot · 2006-07-08, 06:28

Been subbing things as a hobby such as jrock / jpop music videos and i've always noticed that its hard to distinguish where a script line starts then ends.

lemme give an example as it is hard to explain.. so I will try my best

Ok heres a script example

Boy: Hey, How are you today
Girl: I'm fine you?
Boy: Oh, I'm okay
I went to the store today and bought some fish,
Then I bought some cheese.
Girl: Thats nice

ok now, something I've noticed is. japanese have a tendancy to speak fast and not pause so say it goes boy < girl < boy and that characters second line of phrases is a long run on sentence with little or no pauses. How do i distinguish when in the middle of his run on sentence to switch the phrase Like , How would I know when he said "Oh, I'm okay" If I speak not a word of japanese.

Is this something that the translator is suppose to take care of or do I just GUESS when to break to the next subtitle?

I really am struggling to explain what problem I am having. Basically I want to know when to split the dialogue

Ijuki · 2006-07-08, 07:28

I do sense when a line is gonna be splited. It is all up to practice I guess. If you watch it in Aegis, Medusa, SSA or Sabbu (you might have something else to time with) you can actually see the waveform of it (unless you time via video). You should be able to spot line breaks with that.

As said, practice makes you better (or worse), just keep it up and you should know sooner or later.

eggplant · 2006-07-08, 08:25

As a translator, it is standard practice for me to denote a timestamp and the name of the person for the corresponding dialogue in my script.
In my opinion, this will save the timer from trying to determine line breaks, and result in accurate timing of subtitles.
This is important as Japanese language is rich in onomatopoeia, which is not always translated or shown on screen.

Perhaps you should ask your translator to do the same, as it isn't much of an extra effort on his/her part.

Since I'm on the subject, the delineation of Japanese letters on the script by the translator can be beneficial to typesetters who work on text and signs, for an exact match.

LytHka · 2006-07-08, 09:05

As a veteran timer, I can say that it doesn't all come down to your timing practice. It's actually just about knowing enough Japanese. Before I even began watching anime, I took a short 2 week Japanese language course which helped me to distinguish the basics; I learned what kind of words begin the sentence, what kind of words end the sentence and so on.
I see work of "veteran" timers everyday and I still spot mistakes of not knowing where new sentences begin/end. Some people that have been watching anime since the dawn of time still only read the subtitles and ignore the Japanese completely. It's the same with some timers, they just separate different voices but still just guess where things should start/end.
Sure, it's a nice gesture that a translator gives some instructions where certain lines end/begin with perhaps romaji inside { } brackets, and it's common practice in many groups. But an expert timer shouldn't have problems with japanese language at all. One of the critics of my early work asked me if I know Japanese to be able to time. I said very little and I was confident about my work, yet I did made mistakes back then, even with some knowledge from that Japanese language course. What you should be practicing as a timer would be your Japanese, too. However, you should keep in mind that not always can you separate sentences the way the Japanese dialogue requires it. Sometimes, the timer or the editor has to reshuffle the sentence for it to fit English, thus timing of the two lines has to sometimes match the English needs more. But, it's common sense that you keep dialogue of one person to that person only.

If you can't do that, then try to improve *fast*, on your own, or perhaps timing isn't really your thing.

Soluzar · 2006-07-08, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LytHka

As a veteran timer, I can say that it doesn't all come down to your timing practice. It's actually just about knowing enough Japanese. Before I even began watching anime, I took a short 2 week Japanese language course which helped me to distinguish the basics; I learned what kind of words begin the sentence, what kind of words end the sentence and so on.

I've not done much timing yet, but I have found that my knowledge of the langage, however rudimentary it may be, really helps. I'm never going to be fluent in Japanese, probably, but it's nice to know a little.

xat · 2006-07-08, 19:34

Often timing becomes a collaboration between the timer and translator (or editor) simply due to this conundrum

As others have pointed out, the more Japanese you know, the better. Looking at it from another perspective, timing can be a good gateway for "picking up" Japanese here and there. I know I've picked up a bit of it while timing karaoke as well as episode dialogue.

LytHka · 2006-07-08, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by xat

As others have pointed out, the more Japanese you know, the better. Looking at it from another perspective, timing can be a good gateway for "picking up" Japanese here and there. I know I've picked up a bit of it while timing karaoke as well as episode dialogue.

All I can say is: Indeed.

Quarkboy · 2006-07-08, 20:43

Perhaps to be more specific, the japanese a timer really needs to know to be effective is to be able to identify the predicate of a sentence. Of course, to be able to do that well, you really need to know the various conjugations of verbs and how complex sentences are constructed, plus sentence ending particles.

As a rule of thumb, splitting should only be done after a predicate (including sentence ending final particles) and optionally some kind of linking partical like "ga" or a -te form or -tara type conditional linkers.

With a year's knowledge of japanese, you'd be fine with this, I think. Of course, being able to audially identify words is a pretty difficult thing at first, but that is where practice comes in.

runpsicat · 2006-07-08, 22:12

Tossing in my two cents as a translator who times on occasion and has worked with a lot of timers...

I personally think it'd be more practical to keep in mind that one should not split sentences in the middle of a clause in the translation (i.e. English) since it's probably more important to the viewer that each line consists of structurally(?) discrete parts and don't get split at random points. (I'm not very good with technical terms in grammar, so please forgive my fuzzy terminology.)

Common split points:

1) before conjunctions (nice list here)
2) before that/which
3) after commas/semicolons/colons/ellipses

Since the English translation more or less correlates to the spoken Japanese in this aspect (unless it's for dramatic effect, we tend not to pause in the middle of a clause afaik--and if one pauses in the middle for drammatic effect, it's typically reflected in the translation by an ellipsis or an italicized word or some such), if you follow the above guidelines, the line-split issue should resolve itself most of the time without much of a headache. (I say "should" since I'm sure there are exceptions...)

I hear most timers start picking up on the -te/demo type stuff as they go along, and I'm sure that also makes things a lot easier as well. You can also ask your translator to split more/less often, etc. - I don't think I really got the concept nailed down until I timed something and found it annoying to have to split a lot of lines as I time. Now, I just chuck in notes for timers as I translate and try to match each timer's timing style ("how often do you split lines?" etc.) so that the process is as painless as possible.

One last thing: about the timestamp notation method - this would only really work if the same raw is being used throughout. Otherwise, the timer would need to mentally add/subtract all the time if the tl/enc raws are different, so it might be easier if you just use romaji notations (maybe timers need to verify this one). You don't need to write out the whole line in romaji for this, so it's pretty easy to add them in as you go along.

Moiraine · 2006-07-12, 09:03

A cheap and easy way to do it would be to just make those 2 lines into one. ^_^

I've found that, while the 2 languages a fairly different, there is still a flow to speech. I know a couple dozen Japanese words, which does help on occassion, but mostly, you time what makes sense. It helps to have a tl watch areas you are really unsure of in order to check timing, but most of it is common sense.

The only area where this fails to work is when a character takes a ridiculously long time to say something in Japanese that comes out as like 6 words in English. Or the reverse, short Japanese, long English. The oher area where it get sticky is when a character has like 37 lines in a row. And they have strange word spacing and pauses. *coughBleachcough* Then you begin to go insane. I have had a few eps of Bleach that have reduced me to tears b/c some sections are just so goddamned hard.

But with anything, practice helps. Try to pay attention to how lines flow and how the character speaks. Finding 1 line you are totally sure of often makes it easier to place the lines before it, especially in long speaking sections.

2006-07-08, 06:28	Link #1
Fazeshot GAINAXヲタ Join Date: Jul 2006	Need advice from a Veteran Fansub timer Been subbing things as a hobby such as jrock / jpop music videos and i've always noticed that its hard to distinguish where a script line starts then ends. lemme give an example as it is hard to explain.. so I will try my best Ok heres a script example Boy: Hey, How are you today Girl: I'm fine you? Boy: Oh, I'm okay I went to the store today and bought some fish, Then I bought some cheese. Girl: Thats nice ok now, something I've noticed is. japanese have a tendancy to speak fast and not pause so say it goes boy < girl < boy and that characters second line of phrases is a long run on sentence with little or no pauses. How do i distinguish when in the middle of his run on sentence to switch the phrase Like , How would I know when he said "Oh, I'm okay" If I speak not a word of japanese. Is this something that the translator is suppose to take care of or do I just GUESS when to break to the next subtitle? I really am struggling to explain what problem I am having. Basically I want to know when to split the dialogue

2006-07-08, 08:25	Link #3
eggplant Eggplant Join Date: Dec 2005	As a translator, it is standard practice for me to denote a timestamp and the name of the person for the corresponding dialogue in my script. In my opinion, this will save the timer from trying to determine line breaks, and result in accurate timing of subtitles. This is important as Japanese language is rich in onomatopoeia, which is not always translated or shown on screen. Perhaps you should ask your translator to do the same, as it isn't much of an extra effort on his/her part. Since I'm on the subject, the delineation of Japanese letters on the script by the translator can be beneficial to typesetters who work on text and signs, for an exact match. __________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuri de yuri de yuriyuri ne!--Tsunomoto Rein

2006-07-08, 20:43	Link #8
Quarkboy Translator, Producer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 44	Perhaps to be more specific, the japanese a timer really needs to know to be effective is to be able to identify the predicate of a sentence. Of course, to be able to do that well, you really need to know the various conjugations of verbs and how complex sentences are constructed, plus sentence ending particles. As a rule of thumb, splitting should only be done after a predicate (including sentence ending final particles) and optionally some kind of linking partical like "ga" or a -te form or -tara type conditional linkers. With a year's knowledge of japanese, you'd be fine with this, I think. Of course, being able to audially identify words is a pretty difficult thing at first, but that is where practice comes in. __________________ Read Light Novels in English at J-Novel Club! Translator, Producer, Japan Media Export Expert Founder and Owner of J-Novel Club Sam Pinansky

2006-07-08, 22:12	Link #9
runpsicat Engrishator Fansubber Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tokyo, Japan	Tossing in my two cents as a translator who times on occasion and has worked with a lot of timers... I personally think it'd be more practical to keep in mind that one should not split sentences in the middle of a clause in the translation (i.e. English) since it's probably more important to the viewer that each line consists of structurally(?) discrete parts and don't get split at random points. (I'm not very good with technical terms in grammar, so please forgive my fuzzy terminology.) Common split points: 1) before conjunctions (nice list here) 2) before that/which 3) after commas/semicolons/colons/ellipses Since the English translation more or less correlates to the spoken Japanese in this aspect (unless it's for dramatic effect, we tend not to pause in the middle of a clause afaik--and if one pauses in the middle for drammatic effect, it's typically reflected in the translation by an ellipsis or an italicized word or some such), if you follow the above guidelines, the line-split issue should resolve itself most of the time without much of a headache. (I say "should" since I'm sure there are exceptions...) I hear most timers start picking up on the -te/demo type stuff as they go along, and I'm sure that also makes things a lot easier as well. You can also ask your translator to split more/less often, etc. - I don't think I really got the concept nailed down until I timed something and found it annoying to have to split a lot of lines as I time. Now, I just chuck in notes for timers as I translate and try to match each timer's timing style ("how often do you split lines?" etc.) so that the process is as painless as possible. One last thing: about the timestamp notation method - this would only really work if the same raw is being used throughout. Otherwise, the timer would need to mentally add/subtract all the time if the tl/enc raws are different, so it might be easier if you just use romaji notations (maybe timers need to verify this one). You don't need to write out the whole line in romaji for this, so it's pretty easy to add them in as you go along. __________________ Last edited by runpsicat; 2006-07-08 at 22:32.

2006-07-08, 07:28	Link #2
Ijuki aka Raw Provider Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 37	I do sense when a line is gonna be splited. It is all up to practice I guess. If you watch it in Aegis, Medusa, SSA or Sabbu (you might have something else to time with) you can actually see the waveform of it (unless you time via video). You should be able to spot line breaks with that. As said, practice makes you better (or worse), just keep it up and you should know sooner or later.

2006-07-08, 09:05	Link #4
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	As a veteran timer, I can say that it doesn't all come down to your timing practice. It's actually just about knowing enough Japanese. Before I even began watching anime, I took a short 2 week Japanese language course which helped me to distinguish the basics; I learned what kind of words begin the sentence, what kind of words end the sentence and so on. I see work of "veteran" timers everyday and I still spot mistakes of not knowing where new sentences begin/end. Some people that have been watching anime since the dawn of time still only read the subtitles and ignore the Japanese completely. It's the same with some timers, they just separate different voices but still just guess where things should start/end. Sure, it's a nice gesture that a translator gives some instructions where certain lines end/begin with perhaps romaji inside { } brackets, and it's common practice in many groups. But an expert timer shouldn't have problems with japanese language at all. One of the critics of my early work asked me if I know Japanese to be able to time. I said very little and I was confident about my work, yet I did made mistakes back then, even with some knowledge from that Japanese language course. What you should be practicing as a timer would be your Japanese, too. However, you should keep in mind that not always can you separate sentences the way the Japanese dialogue requires it. Sometimes, the timer or the editor has to reshuffle the sentence for it to fit English, thus timing of the two lines has to sometimes match the English needs more. But, it's common sense that you keep dialogue of one person to that person only. If you can't do that, then try to improve fast, on your own, or perhaps timing isn't really your thing.

2006-07-08, 19:34	Link #6
xat Senior Member Fansubber Join Date: Dec 2005	Often timing becomes a collaboration between the timer and translator (or editor) simply due to this conundrum As others have pointed out, the more Japanese you know, the better. Looking at it from another perspective, timing can be a good gateway for "picking up" Japanese here and there. I know I've picked up a bit of it while timing karaoke as well as episode dialogue.

2006-07-12, 09:03	Link #10
Moiraine High Priestess of DB Fansubber Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: MA, USA	A cheap and easy way to do it would be to just make those 2 lines into one. ^_^ I've found that, while the 2 languages a fairly different, there is still a flow to speech. I know a couple dozen Japanese words, which does help on occassion, but mostly, you time what makes sense. It helps to have a tl watch areas you are really unsure of in order to check timing, but most of it is common sense. The only area where this fails to work is when a character takes a ridiculously long time to say something in Japanese that comes out as like 6 words in English. Or the reverse, short Japanese, long English. The oher area where it get sticky is when a character has like 37 lines in a row. And they have strange word spacing and pauses. coughBleachcough Then you begin to go insane. I have had a few eps of Bleach that have reduced me to tears b/c some sections are just so goddamned hard. But with anything, practice helps. Try to pay attention to how lines flow and how the character speaks. Finding 1 line you are totally sure of often makes it easier to place the lines before it, especially in long speaking sections.