[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Apathy]

Just speculating, but

Spoiler for speculation and a question:

I wonder if Kyrie's thing against Asumu could also have something to do (not completely, but somewhat) with the fact that Battler left home for a while? I don't think it was Kyrie specifically that made him do that, but more the fact that Rudolf remarried so quickly- nevertheless, could she perhaps have felt resentful that Battler regarded Asumu as family/his mother to the extent that he did that?

... I'm getting rather confused, and I'm not sure whether it has a point/any backing at all, but just speculation, as stated.

Also, are we ever told the difference between suit-Beatrice and dress-Beatrice? I admit to being rather confused about that. .___.;

... I wonder if allergies or the like could count as a method of death. Just thinking about the possibility of illness, etc.

... I do wonder how everything's going to work out in Umineko. In Higurashi, quite a lot of it was to do with Hinamizawa Syndrome and the Oyashiro-sama legend, wasn't it? I guess there's still the hows and whys to work out in Umineko... (Come to think, we didn't find out that Miyo was the culprit for a while, did we...).

[Goose Boy]

Finally came ba-ck...

Spoiler for Reaction:

OMFG.... i prefer waiting for the answer arcs.... what about if witches dont exist and a supernatural being did everything? a clue... contains " no tatari " in it...

Spoiler for A question:

How are Sakutarou, Siesta 00 and gaap?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for Battler And Kyrie:

I think she's resentful that Battler doesn't call her Mom like he should. She ought to be horribly jealous of Asamu for taking away her son.

I wonder if the tatchi-e we get for Kinzo (In game) = Kinzo (Title) or Kinzo (Grandfather) that causes aot of confusion.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Spoiler for Battler And Kyrie:

I think she's resentful that Battler doesn't call her Mom like he should. She ought to be horribly jealous of Asamu for taking away her son.

Spoiler for Ep 4:

While it's implied that Battler is Kyrie's son. We actually don't know who his mom is.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Mikachiru

By the way, can anyone post some red text that comfirms Nanjo's death?

Spoiler for ep4:

Yes, he is confirmed at the end of ep3 (Nanjo is dead) and in episode 1 (Of course, the three people were killed by others.).

In episode 2 and episode 4, it is never confirmed that he died, and the ep1 red text I gave you only says 'the three people' or even just 'three people'.

And to get around the 'unidentified corpses' line, you just have to assume that Nanjo was playing dead. No one ever says that playing dead is impossible, and Battler's group only had a few seconds to examine those corpses in ep1. There is obviously no doctor left after Nanjo dies.
By the way, Lambda hints that the 'unidentified corpses' line only applies to ep1.

To knock off that ep3 one, I'd have liked to mention that Nanjo is only ever mentioned by last name, and that there is another character with a tachi-e and the same last name. But ep3 is the only episode where we know Nanjo's son survives and lives until 1998...

[k//eternal]

The two things that are added to our arsenal now are basically that

Spoiler:

there can be multiple people with one name and that someone we see as alive in-game can already be dead. In other words, there can be more or less of a person (by name) as necessary, the restriction being that there is a maximum of 17.

By the way, acknowledging Kinzo's existence doesn't mean he has to be alive (unless the original text was less ambiguous). I thought about it for a bit, and if you assume that Kinzo is a unique, real name it's still possible for him to have died and for everyone to acknowledge him, as long as he leaves his will there. There would be no "mistake" involved, and obeying Kinzo's will certainly acknowledges his existence, even if that existence is in the past.

That said, I'm interested in red text confirming someone as alive at specific times.

Additionally, I'm curious what made Rudolf think he was going to die in Ep. 1; that struck me as very weird the first time around. I don't recall this being properly explained, and if it's been done, someone clue me in.

[melange]

I found the ep4 tips on types of Witches interesting. Below is selected translations of the Tips pertaining to witch types... Normal text is things directly translated. Italics are my hypothesis..

Spoiler for ep 4 tips and hidden tea party:

Witch (Normal) 魔女
Normal witches have powers beyond those of normal humans, possess their own 'world' or 'dominion' (領地) or 'fragment' (カケラ) which they can manipulate freely. Normal witches cannot move out of their 'dominions'.

Maybe Beatrice is of this class. There was that whole bit about her shutting herself (with Maria) in a world of her own. Plus, in Bernkastel's profile it says "領地であれば互角だが、本来、彼女の魔力はベアトリーチェのそれを遥かに上回っている" or "in Beatrice's dominion they are on par but originally her (Bernkastel's) magic is far above that of Beatrice's", hinting that Beatrice is in fact a 'normal' witch who cannot leave her dominion

Voyager 航海者
Witches who can move freely amongst different 'worlds' within the sea of fragments (カケラ) are called Voyagers. Another name for high level witches. Normal witches who cannot get out of their dominions cannot compare with them in power.

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are of this class.

Creator 造物主
Witches who are a higher level than Voyagers. Creators are a scared existence who can give birth to '1' out of a sea of nothingness. Being free of most restrictions, they are sometimes even called 'gods' by Voyagers.

Maria, the Witch of the Origin may be a 'chosen one' who is meant to become a Creator.

Is Enje, having learnt her magic from Maria and achieved 'white witch' status possibly in this category as well?



Thoughts
I find it interesting that there is a hint here that Maria may end up being a higher class witch than both LD and Bern.

1. If, in the end Beato is meant to be a red herring (like the Sonozaki's in Higurashi) and she needs to be "saved"/"helped" for a 'good end' to happen...

2. and if, as shown in the hidden tea party, LD and Bern have an 'understanding' to weight things against Beato and make sure that Beato will always lose/be destroyed...

3. it may well be that saving Beato will depend on the development of Maria into a full fledged Creator,

4. perhaps this is the how the Mariage Solciel alliance of Maria + Beato + Enje (who plays a big role in 'healing' Maria) will come into play towards the end? As the counterweight to LD + Bern?

Granted part of me wants to still trust in the 'goodness' of Bern

[Rena Ryuuguu]

Spoiler for Stake & Goat Servant theory:

Hnn.. we all know the stakes can changes there forms to a murderer Stake weapon, and there demons ( besides maybe Lucifer ----> because known as fallen angel ), maybe they also can change then there forms to the family members?
at last Asmodeus and Satan should be able to do this if we follow the occult scene.
and remember in EP 2 when Kanon appeared suddenly again after his death , later it was to seen that it wasn't him but a Goat Servant. so if Goat Servants can change into another person and into butterflies then , might also Stakes, though it could be also possible that then Goat Servants change into the members of the ushiromiya family or servants.
and as I know Beatrice never mentioned that one of the culprit isn't a stake or goat servant..
and even if she did then she wouldn't lie with this, because when they change to another person , then at this moment they are aren't a stake"
if we would follow that theory there would be a lot things which we could start to think over again

[Von Himmel]

Spoiler:

Agh ! It's all messed up . . If the killer is in Hideyoshi's and Eva's room in Ep 1, would that mean that Kanon/Kumasawa that went in there be the killer. .?

. . But it's just too simple. .

The witch theories are pretty intresting, does that mean

Spoiler:

Maria might actually be the 'last boss' ? xD;;

[Klashikari]

The major problem that is a liability to figure out the identity of the culprit is actually the modus operandi.

No matter how a character is fishy, you need the timing and especially the "means" to do all of these insane murders (the biggest problem is how one can thrust a stake in a human cranium like this without any device).

[clevomon]

[QUOTE=Mikachiru;2143251]I did you a favor and put a spoiler tag on your post (don't kill me!) .]
No probs. I don't go on here very often and wasn't sure how to do it myself. Sorry about that.

[clevomon]

Spoiler for Battler:

One other thing I'm wondering - Kinzo's name has some similarity to his other name, Goldsmith, if I've been following you guys correctly. What if he changed his name to that after he met Beatrice? If that's the case, perhaps his original name was Battler. It would be a ridiculous coincidence about the name of his mother, but if so, that might be why Rudolph named our Battler that in the first place.

[yangxu]

This theory has been floating on the Chinese forums for a while, I think it has some validity to it:

Kanon and Shanon might be the same person, after all, the two never appeared in front of Battler or most of the Ushiromiya members at the same time. Since Shanon has been working as a maid in the Ushiromiya family for 10 years, and Kanon has only started working 3 years before the massacre occured (the giant portrait of Beatrice was put on the wall 3 years ago, too...), it may very well be that Shanon disguised as Kanon and committed the crimes that way. 10 years of work experience gives her enough knowledge to know pretty much everything around the house and come up with a decent murdering scheme.

[Von Himmel]

Rather than disguise, I think 'multiple personalites' is more logical. But, what about Jessica, Krauss and Natsuhi ? They also have 3 years to noticed that.

Also, they might've been some chance possibility that Jessica see both Kanon and Shannon at the same time when she try to approach Kanon with the help of Shannon. . .

No, screw that. It's somehow a little unlikely that Jessica will try to approach Kanon like that.

[kiby]

Various things came to my mind....

Spoiler for kinzo death:

The "ritual" needs 13 or 14 sacrifices (i can't remember the excact number). I do not know if it is a good thing to notice it, but if the killer wants to make it real, or if the witches exist, then it can be important.....
therefore if kinzo is dead before the 13 or 14 killing-decount, it means that there is only 17 people left and 4 or 3 survivors no? If he is not.....there is one more person left.....(plus thoses who could have faked their death?)

Spoiler for virgilia question:

What did she do in ep4? In ep 3 her presence was very disturbing because of kuwa

Spoiler for mad thoughs:

It seems like Ryu07 likes to play with the idea that people are one wiche's pawn (.....I hope this is the good word).
Beru said to battler that he was her's, and i thought that ange was her too but.....heard she just wanted to get rid of her.....
I was sure that maria was beatrice's pawn and, eva, lambda's
I know this is only sleeptalking XD

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Rena Ryuuguu

Spoiler for Stake & Goat Servant theory:

Hnn.. we all know the stakes can changes there forms to a murderer Stake weapon, and there demons ( besides maybe Lucifer ----> because known as fallen angel ), maybe they also can change then there forms to the family members?
at last Asmodeus and Satan should be able to do this if we follow the occult scene.

There was a theory about that back in ep2:

Spoiler:

That the seven sisters might actually corresponds to Ginzo's childrens and their wife/husbands.

Pride: Krauss
Sloth: Natsuhi (using headache as an excuse, kinda like Kumasawa's back pains?)
Greed: Eva
Gluttony: Hideyoshi (body size )
Lust: Rudolph
Envy: Kyrie
Wrath:Rosa

Of course, just a theory.

Originally Posted by kiby

Various things came to my mind....

Spoiler for virgilia question:

What did she do in ep4? In ep 3 her presence was very disturbing because of kuwa

Spoiler:

High point was definitely "Rame~~~~" part,
Virgilia is summoned by Goldsmith, does his bidding. Guards the prisoners, makes tea for the rabbits, magicial "electronic warefare" (if comparing to military warfare). Excels (?) in ES, EA (ECM) and EP (ECCM).

[Ithekro]

Instead of the conventional two player chess, could the analogy change at some point to four player chess?

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The major problem that is a liability to figure out the identity of the culprit is actually the modus operandi.

No matter how a character is fishy, you need the timing and especially the "means" to do all of these insane murders (the biggest problem is how one can thrust a stake in a human cranium like this without any device).

Rosa already demonstrated how you can do this in the end of Ep. 2, didn't she?

[kiby]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Instead of the conventional two player chess, could the analogy change at some point to four player chess?

Sounds interesting....

Spoiler for end of ep 2:

end of ep 2"]the chess metaphore showed a kinzo-beatrice game in the segond game, wich was the third important mension of it ( after the introduction of ep1 and kirie's chess strategie). Anyway if he's dead and "beatrice" wants to struggle agains the famous-unknown grand-son, it is also a 2 game player.....if he is not (as we can think he is'nt in ep 2), it becomes more complicated.....and who could be the other players? XD (gonna be a killing chess familly game)

[Goose Boy]

QUESTION: did beato/ lambda / anyone has specified the definition of a death person? like the closed room definition.

Spoiler for Idea:

The blow fish contains a toxin/poison/ venom ( tetradoxine) that it is used in black magic to make zombies, oftenly in africa "witches or warlocks" would poison people and "kill " them, when the corpse is in the tomb, the " magician" opens the grave and they end up like zombies, it is black magic and some cases of that have been registered. One man has worked 10 years after his "death" in zombie like state, and when the "spell" broke, he returned to the amazed family who took him for death.
The puff fish is very commonly in japan, and is used for western black magic... what about is the stakes contain puff fish venom and that is how Beatrice makes the famouse ep2 closed rooms?