[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Lady_Bernkastel]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I noticed this before as well, the new girl's eye is shown to the right, so I had thought that it was still her. Maybe she just gets an alternate outfit (like Maria, Ange, Young Eva/Eva Beatrice, Shannon, George, Kanon, etc...), but I still think that it's likely that she's the one who's behind Maria. Most of the other girls look too old to have legs like that, as they seem to have more of a shape to their legs anyway.

I think that the white-legged figure (XD) might be the one who gave Maria the umbrella, and that they showed the new girl's eye because she is a witness to this...and sees whose the one who gave it :O
Maybe.
[I really doubt she has another outfit, but that might be as well...hadn't thought about that idea]

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by milkypink

In that instance (thanks for the link rogerpepitone!) "killed by other people" = 他殺, "did not commit murder" = 殺人を犯していない, "killed by traps" = 殺された
他殺, as far as most dictionaries are concerned, translates to murder. WH translated it as "killed by other people" which is pretty literal, and a fitting translation, but legally I don't know if 他殺 and 殺人 are actually equivalent. (although I feel like they probably are? someone with both legal and Japanese knowledge can step up here...) Also 他殺 was used as a contrast to 自殺 (suicide) in some cases.
殺人, I would say is legally considered murder in the sense you listed above
殺す just means "to kill", intent is not put into it.

The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.

Good luck finding one of those. They're not too fond of lawyers over there.

On the other hand, that could be important. If to an ordinary Japanese person, "killing another" and "murder" are the same thing, then the entire line of distinction might be fruitless because as far as he's concerned as writer, "killing someone" = "murder." Even though that's not true to a western legal sensibility. In that case, saying "soandso did not commit murder" is equivalent to saying "soandso didn't kill anyone."

But we really have no way of knowing which is intended until he reveals the semantic trick (or explains things in a manner which entirely discredits those who "did not commit murder" as killers of any sort).

EDIT: I should of course note that, as far as I know, there is no theory present for any killing in the series thus far which is reliant on my semantic distinction. A simpler theory or two explains the deaths of everyone in ep1 and ep3 without relying on the people who are said to have not committed murder. So this is mostly a question of translation that I consider interesting. And even if it IS true, limiting them to killings that aren't murder means you have to imagine a scenario in which somebody killed without murderous intent. It winds up just complicating things. But it is interesting, and I wonder if it could lead to a theory that he didn't anticipate anyone thinking up (himself included).

EDIT EDIT: A good source of information on this might be Death Note, as the manga/series investigates the distinction between "killing those who deserve to die" and murder, and justifications for the same. I don't know any Japanese lawyers, but I'm sure there's tons of textual examples in the Death Note manga of distinct phrasings for murder as a legal construct of intentional homicide.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by DizzyRoro

Spoiler for Personal notes:

Lastly for the anti-fantasy side is Kanon. It's definitely strange for him to be furthest away from Battler and sandwiched between Natsuhi and <New Girl A>, but if we take into consideration his insisting that he is furniture, the "newest creation of Goldsmith", it wouldn't be surprising that he is also closest to the fantasy side.

Spoiler for addition, eps 1-4:

I took this as a representation of him usually being the most directly aggressive towards the witch and her furniture - there isn't a single episode where he doesn't challenge or get challenged by Beatrice. (well ep 4 is a little bit of an exception, but then again it's an exception to just about everything )

[Golden Witch Drugs]

I decided to write some of my thoughts on the opening... (Sorry if I repost on a screenshot or a text)

Spoiler for EP5 Opening:

So... My overall expression of the screenshots from the game and the opening is that this episode is most certainly going to explain EP1. Natsuhi and Kinzo have a big part in this game, the new girl is probably Maria's rose, Battler is going to explore Beato's mind, Battler is entering the kakera world, Lambda and Bern is apparently having a fight... And so on. Now, onto the screenshots.


I noticed a couple of things on this picture that were quite interesting...
1 As it seems, you can see a bit of Maria's skirt and her legs closest to the rose, and behind her someone is standing... I paused and saw that the girl standing behind Maria has a red skirt. And in none of the earlier episodes does there exist a girl with a short, red skirt. This could be the "New Girl A" with a alternative dress, but it could also be, as Lady_Bernkastel said, that the "New Girl A" is only a witness to this scene.
2 If you look closley at this, it kinda looks like a Ryukushi-style hand, doesn't it? I don't know if it's Maria's hand or the other girls, but apparently someone is trying to grab the rose. As far as this goes, I have a theory. The girl standing behind Maria might have stole the rose, because she knew that Maria would search for her rose a long time after it. That way the girl would've been able to dress up as Beatrice and then go give Maria the letter and the umbrella while she was searching. And... If the "New Girl A" were to be Maria's rose, it would explain why she is on the picture. Then if the "New Girl A" would've been captured by the girl she would've known who the culprit is (If the one that stole Maria's rose were to be the culprit) when she turned into a human/witch/piece/furniture/whatever. And that would in its turn explain the screenshot where she says "You are the culprit."


Why the heck is Natsuhi and Krauss on the servants side?! I know that Eva stated that Natsuhi is just "a maid servant" but that doesn't mean she is one. And why is Krauss also on the servants side? That doesn't even make any sence. Oh, and another thing I noticed is that on the siblings side everyone look very colorful and happy, but on the servants side everyone look very gray and upset. A servant uproar?


To me, the new portrait is facinating in many ways. For example, it is different from all the other portraits due to it's river of blood and dead hand in the right corner. And the portraits that shows before this one in the opening, are all portraits of the golden witch/previous golden witch. So the "New Girl A" is probably a new Beatrice. That would explain the title of the game, but still not. Since if the "New Girl A" would be the new golden witch she wouldn't really "end" the golden witch. But, if she were to claim a new title for herself, that would definitly make the golden witch "end".


Is it just me or does this look like the right side of Natsuhi? It would definitly be possible due to her big importance in EP1. And in one of the game screenshots Ronove adresses her as "Natsuhi-sama" so I hope we are getting a Natsuhi-Beatrice for this episode :'3


Is Eva-Beatrice going to be in this game as well? In that case, yaaay~


I really don't get this picture... It looks like George, Battler and Hideyoshi so my theory about this is that they are in the rose shed and this is when Hideyoshi finds Shannon's corpse and confirms that she is indeed wearing a ring.


Before Battler's face enters the kakera screen Bern is standing in the top of the screen. Maybe Bern shows him the kakera world and all the previous games so he can get some clues how to defeat Beato? (And somehow I get the feeling that she is going to show him the Higurashi world to prove that she was able to win after a hundred years of playing against Lambdadelta, and that he also can beat Beato)


I don't really know who the closest person on thsi picture is... But the person that is shaping in the background actually looks alot, and I mean ALOT, like Rika's sprite in Higurashi... So I really think that the Higurashi world is going to be mentioned in this episode. It could also be Bern, but I just don't think it really looks like her... As far as the front person goes I actually belive this is Rena... If this were to be a part from the Higurashi world... I really think so... Really... I don't care if it sounds somehow stupid -.- (And also, on this picture the background character hasn't been completely shaped up yet)


I bet that Lambda and Bern is going to have a fight, and Battler is somehow going to interfere. Or something like that... Honestly... About this picture... I don't have clue...


On this picture... I actually see 4 characters... I said 4... Or... I don't see 4... But I'll explain. The person in the background is definitly Virgilia. As far as the person standing next to long-hair Beato I got two different options... One is, Battler... One is, young Kinzo... I mean, you never know! Since Battler is exploring Beato's mind this could be a memory from her past when she met Kinzo. And since Virgilia were her teacher at that time, that would explain why she is there. But it could also be Battler.

And, well... That's all I got... Hope I didn't type to much ^^, Took me about 16 replays of dreamenddischarger to type all this...

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.

If you are referring to manslaughter, the term would be 故殺 (in a legal sense) or 第二級殺人 (murder of second degree). 殺人 and　他殺　both describe intentional murder, only that 殺人　lays a bigger focus on the killing of a person.
人殺し is somewhat in the middle as it is the only word that does not necessarily describe intentional murder, but only the act of killing another or someone who killed another...at least that's what I learned.

So you could draw a line between a 殺人犯 and a　人殺し, as far as that the second does not have to have intenion, but the former has, implied by the 犯　which can also be a verb　犯す, which means 'to commit' or 'to violate/to become guilty'.

So there could be a way of playing with words here, as in XYは殺人犯ではない (XY is not a muderer)　but XYは人殺しである (XY is a killer). This COULD be the small line helping here...we would only have to know a possible way of some of the victims being killed 'accidentaly'.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs

I decided to write some of my thoughts on the opening... (Sorry if I repost on a screenshot or a text)

Spoiler for EP5 Opening:

Why the heck is Natsuhi and Krauss on the servants side?! I know that Eva stated that Natsuhi is just "a maid servant" but that doesn't mean she is one. And why is Krauss also on the servants side? That doesn't even make any sence. Oh, and another thing I noticed is that on the siblings side everyone look very colorful and happy, but on the servants side everyone look very gray and upset. A servant uproar?


Is it just me or does this look like the right side of Natsuhi? It would definitly be possible due to her big importance in EP1. And in one of the game screenshots Ronove adresses her as "Natsuhi-sama" so I hope we are getting a Natsuhi-Beatrice for this episode :'3


Before Battler's face enters the kakera screen Bern is standing in the top of the screen. Maybe Bern shows him the kakera world and all the previous games so he can get some clues how to defeat Beato? (And somehow I get the feeling that she is going to show him the Higurashi world to prove that she was able to win after a hundred years of playing against Lambdadelta, and that he also can beat Beato)


I don't really know who the closest person on thsi picture is... But the person that is shaping in the background actually looks alot, and I mean ALOT, like Rika's sprite in Higurashi... So I really think that the Higurashi world is going to be mentioned in this episode. It could also be Bern, but I just don't think it really looks like her... As far as the front person goes I actually belive this is Rena... If this were to be a part from the Higurashi world... I really think so... Really... I don't care if it sounds somehow stupid -.- (And also, on this picture the background character hasn't been completely shaped up yet)

Natsuhi and Krauss live on Rokkenjima, the servants spend most of their time there. I was thinking that the characters were introduced as "Guests" and "Hosts" instead of "Ushiromiya" and "Servants", which would explain why they're separated the way they are.

I also think the shadows are too blurry to really tell who each one is. Natsuhi being the shadow in that one screenshot might make sense, but I can't see Rika in that one screenshot you showed, also there's more to that one as in the OP the shadow grows bigger, looking less like Rika.
And the other figure to the front doesn't look like Rena at all to me, first off there are white and pink "ribbons" coming from it, which lead me to believe that she's the new girl... since the new girl wears white and pink ribbons and it pretty much matches up. Also after that scene, the new girl is shown with her eyes glowing.

I don't think Higurashi will have much to do with the mystery itself, maybe Bern will mention it or something. But I doubt that it'll have a huge part of the actual story, the story of Umineko already has so much to work with, it doesn't really need to borrow anything from Higurashi it seems. A witch that looks like another Higurashi character would be nice, but I'm not gonna bet on it.

[Kitsu]

About the side thingy and why Natsuhi and Krauss are on the servants side...

Maho_Momo if that side shows the recidences where is Jessica?
My guess is....those are the people involved in Kinzo's death and hiding it

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

About the side thingy and why Natsuhi and Krauss are on the servants side...

Maho_Momo if that side shows the recidences where is Jessica?
My guess is....those are the people involved in Kinzo's death and hiding it

The kids/cousins are always shown separately (in just about every OP excluding the absolute first one that wasn't really used and was only shown as an extra but basically only introduces the characters so it doesn't really count since it didn't really show scenes from the story anyway.), otherwise Battler, George, and Maria would be shown with the adult guests as well. ^^;

[Kitsu]

Okay you are right...but I still have the feeling that those on the "servant" side aer somewhat involved in Kinzo's death and playacting that he was still alive

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Okay you are right...but I still have the feeling that those on the "servant" side aer somewhat involved in Kinzo's death and playacting that he was still alive

I don't doubt that possibility at all... the servants, Krauss, and Natsuhi are shown communicating with Kinzo usually in each episode. I don't remember Kumasawa ever talking to him directly though, but she seems like the type who knows more than she lets on.

Gohda also isn't in that scene in the OP, I could imagine him being left out of the loop while the rest of the servants, Natsuhi, and Krauss all know what's going on more so.

[rogerpepitone]

GoldenWitchDrugs: Maybe the right hand side is for regular residents of Rokkenjima?

[musouka]

As far as the OP goes, I'm sort of surprised no one has really discussed or noticed the sequence I find the most interesting.

Spoiler for rather large image:

Spoiler for commentary:

The sequence interests me for a couple reasons. On of the more obvious ones is that it depicts Battler with a "red sword", previously only the domain of witches, like Beato. This being an answer arc, it's not totally surprising. It just seems interesting because the game has already given Battler a "blue truth" to utilize.

Secondly, a lot of people seem to assume Bern is on Battler's side. But look at this sequence:

Battler has a red sword --> Zooms in from Battler's perspective --> The sword that he's wielding arcs towards Bern's neck --> But is ultimately rebuffed by some sort of power.

Far from implying that Bern is his ally, it's implying that she is his enemy. When you take into consideration the fact that, as he is shown skimming over the chessboard, he's implied to be reaching for Beato's hand, before Bern and Lambda destroy the board entirely, I think we're up for some pretty strong shifts in alliances here.

[Slate]

Spoiler for Truth about the person in the background:

Hey, who's this? Sure doesn't look like Kinzo... Looks kinda like Virgilia, you know, with the sash, and the ruffles at the ends of the sleeves...and I doubt that Kinzo has a waist like that...

Hurray for HD opening!

[vandakiara]

it's virgilia... unless kinzo likes to crossdress

[Rei-Tenshi]

For those of you saying that Rosa's missing in the Chessboard part of the OP.
Well, I found her lol.

She appears before Rudolf and is in there for like 1 frame and is ridiculously faint.

Spoiler for Rosa:

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi

For those of you saying that Rosa's missing in the Chessboard part of the OP.
Well, I found her lol.

She appears before Rudolf and is in there for like 1 frame and is ridiculously faint.

Spoiler for Rosa:

Holy crackerjacks... I thought Rudolf was ridiculously faint, but that's just super ridiculous. How are people supposed to spot her like that? @.@;

[Marion]

Sneaky Ryukishi is sneaky >___>

[Jan-Poo]

There's no way I can recognize that shadow as Rosa!, but well that's definitely a person there, and since Rosa is the only one missing, well yeah it's probably her.

[Bern-chan]

You're right... it doesn't look like anything really, just a grey blur.