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Old 2019-01-09, 14:27   Link #621
felix
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Demon lord seed doesn't make any sense with out further explanation. At least as someone unfamiliar with it I have no idea what it really means. Probably a conscious decision to avoid the awkward jargon for now?
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Old 2019-01-09, 14:29   Link #622
Applehell
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Not all that surprised it happened with C.R. I've had my share issues with their translations. I think part of problem, is that they just don't enough time in the current format to catch everything.
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Old 2019-01-09, 22:46   Link #623
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I just want to remind people: you cannot talk about anything not yet revealed in the anime in this thread. So even if you read the source material, all that info is out of bounds for this anime thread. Posts that break this rule will be deleted and may result in bans. Let the anime explain these things in due course.

If you see a post that contains non-anime info and doesn't obey our Spoiler Policy, please report it so the moderation staff can review.
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Old 2019-01-10, 00:22   Link #624
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Demon lord seed doesn't make any sense with out further explanation. At least as someone unfamiliar with it I have no idea what it really means. Probably a conscious decision to avoid the awkward jargon for now?
No, it probably isn't. Just look how CR messed up the translation for "eiyuu" and "yuusha". For episodes 1-7 CR just translated both as "hero", but in episode 8 they finally realized that they screwed up because in that episode both terms came up in the same conversation and suddenly CR turned everything around and translated "eiyuu" as "champion", while keeping "yuusha" as "hero".

In episode 1 they used the name "Verudora" but changed it to "Veldora" in episode 2.

In episode 9 they made it completely unknown whether the Extra Skill "Black Flames" was something that Shizu already possessed or if Rimuru created it by using Shizu's Unique Skill "Degenerate". Based on how it was worded it could be interpreted either way.


So no, I don't think it's a concious decision. Unfortunately, due to the no-spoiler policy, I can't explain anymore than that about Demon Lord Seeds in this thread.

You can always ask per PM or go to the Web Novel thread and ask there, though beware of spoilers there.
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Old 2019-01-10, 13:00   Link #625
Klashikari
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Disregarding what happens later, there is no reason to be mislead here, especially considering what is said by Great Sage.
The Japanese sentence is like this: "魔王種への進化を開始します". This sentence literally means "(it) started the evolution towards "Demon Lord species". Considering the context, the translation is actually legit, and if it was supposed to be "Demon Lord's seed", 種 should be read たね (tane) not しゅう (shuu), which is how it is read for "species/variant", moreso that unlike tane (seed), shuu (species) is generally used as a noun suffix, which is not the case for tane (a much more logical rendition would be
魔王の種). In fact, I wonder if it isn't a mistake from the actual LN translation, because the way how it is worded in Japanese, it is plainly a qualification observed by Great Sage, describing an attribute Geld has gained after devouring Gelmud. Also, it is important to note that "tane" was never mentioned prior that scene, and Rimuru never asked Great Sage about this term, whereas "shuu" makes sense due to Great Sage "encyclopedic" speech style.

For all intent and purpose, that translation is actually not mistaken and shouldn't really bring any issue. The original japanese line doesn't hint any kind of "special" term as far as the anime is concerned. In fact, Rimuru himself confirms it, as he called Geld "オークディザスター、魔王ゲルド" (Orc Disaster, Maou Geld). There is no 種 mention whatsoever, because calling Geld as a "demon lord" fits his species nomenclature (and suraten confirmed there are several demon lords, not "the" demon lord). Because of this, "Demon Lord Species" is most likely the correct translation for
魔王種.

Also, I believe it is disingenuous to blame the translator regarding the changes for 英雄 (eiyuu) and 勇者 (yuusha). In term of translation, 勇者 is 99% translated as "Hero" for games and tabletop RPG, because it makes more sense in English to read "the hero", and not the "brave", moreso that hero is the general word in English that qualifies a person admired for their courage and so forth. You almost never see "brave" used as the noun due to general translation nomenclature and habits with the language. Dragon Quest series is the primary example of that. Hell, 盾の勇者 is "Shield Hero" not "Shield Brave".

Regarding eiyuu changed into champion, this issue is something that is incredibly annoying to deal with for translators when JP lore use several words that have subtle differences in Japanese, but have the exact same translation in other languages. For instance, it is incredibly risky to translate 魔導士 into "mage", because the piece of fiction might use western variant too メージ. But even wizard and sorcerer aren't a safe pick, and people who are used to Nasu Kinoko's stories know full well that even mundane stuff like "魔力" cannot be translated as mana all the time because the author may use several fancy terms that need their own translation.
Once again, I believe the translator did a good job, because in fantasy setting, "champions" have a good ring to it and is a term that is often "less" recurrent than Hero, as champions are usually peerless in fictions.
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Old 2019-01-10, 23:39   Link #626
AceTrigger
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Episode 15 Preview Images: http://www.ten-sura.com/story/no15/
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Old 2019-01-11, 14:27   Link #627
Itlandm
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I just assumed the dragon's name was based off the French-English word "verdure", since it was the protector / power source of the Great Forest.
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Old 2019-01-12, 10:50   Link #628
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Originally Posted by Itlandm View Post
I just assumed the dragon's name was based off the French-English word "verdure", since it was the protector / power source of the Great Forest.
Interesting
But do 'ver' have any more meaning?
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Old 2019-01-12, 13:27   Link #629
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well, Veldora's name in katakana is "ヴェルドラ - Verudora" which is very similar to how Japanese spells "verdure" I suppose?
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Old 2019-01-12, 13:30   Link #630
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Old 2019-01-12, 16:46   Link #631
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Disregarding what happens later, there is no reason to be mislead here, especially considering what is said by Great Sage.
The Japanese sentence is like this: "魔王種への進化を開始します". This sentence literally means "(it) started the evolution towards "Demon Lord species". Considering the context, the translation is actually legit, and if it was supposed to be "Demon Lord's seed", 種 should be read たね (tane) not しゅう (shuu), which is how it is read for "species/variant", moreso that unlike tane (seed), shuu (species) is generally used as a noun suffix, which is not the case for tane (a much more logical rendition would be 魔王の種). In fact, I wonder if it isn't a mistake from the actual LN translation, because the way how it is worded in Japanese, it is plainly a qualification observed by Great Sage, describing an attribute Geld has gained after devouring Gelmud. Also, it is important to note that "tane" was never mentioned prior that scene, and Rimuru never asked Great Sage about this term, whereas "shuu" makes sense due to Great Sage "encyclopedic" speech style.
Since both the official LN translation and the official manga translation, which were clearly made seperately, used "Demon Lord Seed", I suspect that the LN and manga translators probably got some sort of list with franchise-specific established terms, while the CR subbers did not. I find it rather unlikely that both the LN and manga translators simply made the same mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
For all intent and purpose, that translation is actually not mistaken and shouldn't really bring any issue. The original japanese line doesn't hint any kind of "special" term as far as the anime is concerned. In fact, Rimuru himself confirms it, as he called Geld "オークディザスター、魔王ゲルド" (Orc Disaster, Maou Geld). There is no 種 mention whatsoever, because calling Geld as a "demon lord" fits his species nomenclature (and suraten confirmed there are several demon lords, not "the" demon lord). Because of this, "Demon Lord Species" is most likely the correct translation for 魔王種.
The fact that Gelmud said something different from "the system" in regards to Geld is not an oversight, but rather shows that there is a difference between what Geld and what the system each say. I think saying as much as this should still "barely" be considered spoiler-free, since I am merely noting that there's still a difference between 魔王 and 魔王種 - something that the CR subs fail to mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Also, I believe it is disingenuous to blame the translator regarding the changes for 英雄 (eiyuu) and 勇者 (yuusha). In term of translation, 勇者 is 99% translated as "Hero" for games and tabletop RPG, because it makes more sense in English to read "the hero", and not the "brave", moreso that hero is the general word in English that qualifies a person admired for their courage and so forth. You almost never see "brave" used as the noun due to general translation nomenclature and habits with the language. Dragon Quest series is the primary example of that. Hell, 盾の勇者 is "Shield Hero" not "Shield Brave".
It was confusing though when Gazell got called a hero king, i.e. mistaking him to be a yuusha (like the one who sealed Veldora) who is also a king at the same time, even though he is an eiyuu ou, or when Shizu was called a "legendary hero" and, once again, mistaking her for the same "type" as the yuusha, even though she is an eiyuu, or even worse, mistake her to actually be the yuusha from Veldora's story due to their similar clothes and hair (though that's only if someone forgot that Veldora's sealing was 300 years ago while Shizu was "merely" around for decades).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Regarding eiyuu changed into champion, this issue is something that is incredibly annoying to deal with for translators when JP lore use several words that have subtle differences in Japanese, but have the exact same translation in other languages. For instance, it is incredibly risky to translate 魔導士 into "mage", because the piece of fiction might use western variant too メージ. But even wizard and sorcerer aren't a safe pick, and people who are used to Nasu Kinoko's stories know full well that even mundane stuff like "魔力" cannot be translated as mana all the time because the author may use several fancy terms that need their own translation.
Once again, I believe the translator did a good job, because in fantasy setting, "champions" have a good ring to it and is a term that is often "less" recurrent than Hero, as champions are usually peerless in fictions.
I guess I didn't word it correctly, but I didn't actually intend to critisize the TL choice they made in the end. I think the combo of yuusha=hero;eiyuu=champion is much better than something like yuusha=brave;eiyuu=hero, because the latter just sounds... stupid. I mean I have never heard the term "the brave" being used ANYWHERE outside of this exact case where both yuusha and eiyuu are used at the same time, so I'd prefer the more commonly used terms instead. So after CR realized their mistake with this issue they did a pretty good job fixing it from this point on.

Though I am not sure how they are going to translate Gazel's title next time... "Champion King" or "Champion of Kings" or "King of Champions" all have a... strange ring to them. I got this bad feeling that they'll just keep using "hero king" instead...
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Old 2019-01-12, 16:59   Link #632
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
It was confusing though when Gazell got called a hero king, i.e. mistaking him to be a yuusha (like the one who sealed Veldora) who is also a king at the same time, even though he is an eiyuu ou, or when Shizu was called a "legendary hero" and, once again, mistaking her for the same "type" as the yuusha, even though she is an eiyuu, or even worse, mistake her to actually be the yuusha from Veldora's story due to their similar clothes and hair (though that's only if someone forgot that Veldora's sealing was 300 years ago while Shizu was "merely" around for decades).
I made that mistake. I just thought that the passage of time in different worlds wasn't straightforward.
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Old 2019-01-12, 17:05   Link #633
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I find it rather unlikely that both the LN and manga translators simply made the same mistake.
If one is following the other thinking it is already official it is more than likely. Maybe there's also senior/junior thing going on there so they just went with it, who knows. But I agree with Klash on this, and I think saying Geld didn't evolve into a Demon Lord is actually more confusing narrative wise because there was nothing hinting otherwise before.
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Old 2019-01-12, 17:50   Link #634
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
If one is following the other thinking it is already official it is more than likely. Maybe there's also senior/junior thing going on there so they just went with it, who knows. But I agree with Klash on this, and I think saying Geld didn't evolve into a Demon Lord is actually more confusing narrative wise because there was nothing hinting otherwise before.
Not the case here. To give an example, the evolved Ogre form in the LN was translated as "Ogre Mage" (this is probably one of the top10 cringiest translation choices someone could ever make, if you ask me), while the manga used "Kijin". Further, the LN translated "Majin" as "Magicborn", while the manga simply kept "Majin" as "Majin". So it's clear that one doesn't just copy & paste from the other.
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Old 2019-01-12, 20:29   Link #635
Klashikari
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2 different translators picking the same translation for a single kanji isn't exactly uncommon, especially for a kanji like this one.
Furthermore, as I stated, 種 read as しゅう does NOT have the "seed" meaning at all. But a translator may not realize that if the text material didn't provide the actual reading (not all LN have furigana). That or it could be the editor company that translated that term themselves, leading to that quite awkward translation choice. Either way, this is something that should not matter at all for the anime.
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Old 2019-01-12, 21:40   Link #636
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
2 different translators picking the same translation for a single kanji isn't exactly uncommon, especially for a kanji like this one.
Furthermore, as I stated, 種 read as しゅう does NOT have the "seed" meaning at all. But a translator may not realize that if the text material didn't provide the actual reading (not all LN have furigana). That or it could be the editor company that translated that term themselves, leading to that quite awkward translation choice. Either way, this is something that should not matter at all for the anime.
I don't know about the LN, but I know for a fact that the manga RAW definitly does have the furigana reading.

Also, the reading is しゅ and not しゅう.


And regarding the relevance, I just mentioned it because the CR subs just outright ignored it even though there is a difference between 魔王 and 魔王種, regardless of what the choice of translation is for 種.


This might all sound like I am nitpicking here, but there already was that little "misunderstanding" about Shizu being "the hero". This franchise just happens to be one that sometimes can get a bit detailed and sometimes refers to some event that happened long ago for some lore explanation. Now that the pace will be significantly higher paced, we likely won't get flashbacks like in EP6 about what Veldora said about Summons in EP1, or EP10 about what Rigur told Rimuru about Gelmud in EP4.
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Old 2019-01-12, 22:42   Link #637
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Well take it from people who actually have experience translating (Klash, I only dabble in it a bit). It's definitely nitpicking, same difference really, take for example: 人、人種. No sane translator would translate the latter as "human seed". The fact that "seed" was used at all was most likely because the translator wasn't sure what the 種 means, and just looked at the dictionary for it. Not the first time it happens, I've seen 公爵令嬢の嗜み as "Simply Good Taste of the Duke's Daughter".
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Old 2019-01-13, 07:40   Link #638
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I don't know about the LN, but I know for a fact that the manga RAW definitly does have the furigana reading.

Also, the reading is しゅ and not しゅう.
I'm not sure why I typed an extra う out of habit, but my point was pretty much validated here: Since the manga raw actually showed まおうしゅ, then the "demon lord seed" translation doesn't make any sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if the translator got incomplete script or just relied on the kanji and didn't check the furigana (because excel document material are just a pain to deal with), and obviously, an editor wouldn't really realize the problem. Or, as I stated, the JP editor/publisher has some kind of an "official" reference material document (like how some manga still has an awkward english title like AoT because they have to follow what was established in Japan) and the translators have to follow that.
Or, if we want to stretch that to the limit, the author deliberately used the species reading, but meant the other meaning for 種 (far fetched without any alternate chuuni reading like a デモンキングシード alongside). But at this point, the CR translator can't guess the author intent, moreso since they would only receive anime material for the translation.
Quote:
And regarding the relevance, I just mentioned it because the CR subs just outright ignored it even though there is a difference between and 魔王種, regardless of what the choice of translation is for 種.
While Shizu's case is pretty much an oversight that lead to some confusion, I don't believe people will really think all demon lords are the same. The difference between Geld and Cromwell is damn obvious just by the way how they were introduced and how the powerscale was alluded to. I'd rather wait for a specific case in the anime that shows such difference being vital but messed up by the translation before stating they did a huge mistranslation or anything.
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Old 2019-01-13, 23:03   Link #639
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Oh yeah my favorite demon is confirmed to appear in the anime later. I don't know how to feel about it though as I didn't expect Diablo to appear until a potential Season 2 so things are probably going to be rushed now. Really hoping the anime will get a second season.
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Old 2019-01-14, 00:22   Link #640
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Oh yeah my favorite demon is confirmed to appear in the anime later. I don't know how to feel about it though as I didn't expect Diablo to appear until a potential Season 2 so things are probably going to be rushed now. Really hoping the anime will get a second season.
Well, from their announcement:
https://twitter.com/ten_sura_anime/s...en-sura.com%2F)
The main story will end at 23rd ep and the 24th ep that he appear will be titled "gaiden:kuro to kamen". It is an anime original episode from the author about shizu and diablo. I guess that this is some kind of sidestory/backstory of some sort. So, optimistically, I think that there will be no rushing. Judging from their current VAs, The anime might end before the end of LN vol.4 as many people already predict before.
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