Could American-Made Anime Ever Become Common?

[demino_hellsin]

I noticed a lot of the content had cuts in between with new information being pumped in between episodes. Not sure if those were missing episodes or just to make the show less serial. But now I'm guessing that was due to the bad management?

Also, then it really was the marketing problem of pushing toys over merchandise?

[Esclair]

It could just be because they were over budget and had to cut out certain things in order to animate less episodes. From what I've read it was a really expensive show to produce and they probably had to cut the budget when the response wasn't as spectacular as they thought.

I think the only reason DC makes superhero cartoons is to push toys. The DVDs don't sell enough themselves to cover the costs and they don't have much other merchandising for it unless it becomes really popular.

[demino_hellsin]

that does make sense. But I think the risks had been worth pursuing. For me, it was a step in the right direction. Their animated shows were superior to pretty much anything Marvel had at the time. Though the Avengers animated shows and Ultimate Spiderman have good art, I just find less fluidity and atmosphere in those shows. Wonder if it's just me.

DC has me as a fan now though because of YJ.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Budget is the primary issue. Japanese animators are basically paid minimum wage and are heavily overworked, YET they're still outsourcing their animation to Korea to reduce costs. Hand drawn animation is EXPENSIVE and time consuming.

Even Legend of Korra was completely outsourced to Japan and Korea. Meanwhile 2D cartoons made with Flash still remain highly popular in the west. Why do you think there's so much CG in anime today? The lower the budget the more CG there is, especially for action scenes. It's just way cheaper to do it with CG than it is to hand animate it. However, most CG just doesn't look very good so they try to hide it as much as possible.



Arpeggio pretty much outsold most of the series that aired that season and it looks like Sidonia will be doing so too for this season. Japanese fans are far more accepting of 3D animation than western fans. Just compare the response to Sidonia from 2chan to MAL or even here.

As long as the characters are 2D, I don't mind the majority of the show being CG, though it would probably look out of place

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Arpeggio pretty much outsold most of the series that aired that season and it looks like Sidonia will be doing so too for this season. Japanese fans are far more accepting of 3D animation than western fans. Just compare the response to Sidonia from 2chan to MAL or even here.

Part of the reason why western fans may be more likely to backlash against this is because western fans have seen a sharp decline in hand-drawn 2D animation in North American-made works (especially with respect to animated movies) whereas in Japan classic hand-drawn 2D is still prominent and in fact the norm.

So 3D probably doesn't remind Japan of what it's lost quite like it does for the west.

I also think that Arpeggio and Sidonia are the ideal sort of shows to go all-CGI with. Because both shows are very sci-fi and very techy in the classic metallic sense. One involves sentient battleships, and the other is more or less a space-based mecha show. The action scenes in these look perfectly fine, imo, because they work reasonably well with a CGI approach. It might not look as good if this was human vs. human rather than battleship vs. battleship or mecha vs. alien monster.

[BaronNoir]

I should note here that very anime-like movies (Pacific Rim and Edge of Tomorrow) seems to be quite well received in the USA.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by BaronNoir

I should note here that very anime-like movies (Pacific Rim and Edge of Tomorrow) seems to be quite well received in the USA.

That's not anime-like, it's adapted from the like of an anime or LN/manga to a real-time movie from Hollywood. It doesn't even have to have the same characters, just the plot is some what similar.

[BaronNoir]

What is ''like'' ?

I mean, the plot of ''Edge of Tomorrow'' is an anime plot (and a good one, should I add) : it's live action but it's more ''animesque'' than a cartoon.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by BaronNoir

What is ''like'' ?

I mean, the plot of ''Edge of Tomorrow'' is an anime plot (and a good one, should I add) : it's live action but it's more ''animesque'' than a cartoon.

It's adapted from a Light Novel All You Need Is Kill, which by the way is loosely adapted btw. It's can't be anime like when there never was an anime about it. Sure some elements have bee used before in other anime's but Edge of Tomorrow is adapted from 'All You Need is Kill' which like I said is loosely adapted.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I also think that Arpeggio and Sidonia are the ideal sort of shows to go all-CGI with. Because both shows are very sci-fi and very techy in the classic metallic sense. One involves sentient battleships, and the other is more or less a space-based mecha show. The action scenes in these look perfectly fine, imo, because they work reasonably well with a CGI approach. It might not look as good if this was human vs. human rather than battleship vs. battleship or mecha vs. alien monster.

The tech is almost there though. Just look at the new GG Xrd (skip to 1 minute mark). 100% 3-D cell shaded CG:

[Triple_R]

^ I don't think that's terrible. It looks Ok for the most part (some bits look overly blocky to me). But I still have a strong preference for hand-drawn 2D for this sort of material.

I don't want to take too much away from the people who made that, because I'm sure it takes a lot of time, skill, and effort. But honestly, that's not even "almost there" when I think about some of my favorite hand-drawn 2D animation action scenes.

[Tenzen12]

One day it WILL be there, we can just bear with more or less clanky characters it until then.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

One day it WILL be there,

Why do you think so? Honestly, I'm a bit surprised CGI hasn't come farther than it has. Just look at the dance performances in Love Live! (both seasons). The hand-drawn bits and the CGI bits are very easy to tell apart from each other, and the hand-drawn bits are consistently better-looking, imo. And Love Live! Season 2 strikes me as a high budget production, so I doubt this is due to just budgeting concerns.

...we can just bear with more or less clanky characters it until then.

People are free to choose to reject CGI artwork/animation if they want to (i.e. not watch shows where it doesn't look good to them). It's their choice. Not yours or mine.

I'm personally fine with it in Arpeggio and Sidonia, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to force other people into accepting it. For some, it's a deal-breaker, and I respect that. I can imagine situations where it could be a deal-breaker for me.

However, I also respect how CGI could be key to American-made animation being resurgent. At least in the early going.

[Tenzen12]

1) Of course it's not just metter of budgets, but if you are doing CGI animation you need good graphic engine and that's something that will be naturaly improved through time. In two years there will be far better CGI animation even with same budgets.

2)Ok, let me be more precise: Until than we have to bear with more or less clanky characters, if we want watch good animes that happen use this method. It's also pretty clear number of such will grow in future so it will prove to be difficult remain dismisive about whole thing.

3) Considering point 1, it should get into point where quality will be good enough that common audience will not have reason not like it anyway. American production might be good example how will japanese anime evolve in near decade(s).

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why do you think so? Honestly, I'm a bit surprised CGI hasn't come farther than it has. Just look at the dance performances in Love Live! (both seasons). The hand-drawn bits and the CGI bits are very easy to tell apart from each other, and the hand-drawn bits are consistently better-looking, imo. And Love Live! Season 2 strikes me as a high budget production, so I doubt this is due to just budgeting concerns.

The tech is actually not very developed. Western companies gave up on 2D and went into 3D completely. They don't see a need to try to get 3D to look like 2D. The only market where the market for 3D that looks like 2D would be big is Japan, and they're relatively inexperienced.

Almost all the 3D techniques that keep pushing 3D animation forward are done in Universities and then adopted by 3D rendering companies. There's very little research done in the field of 3D->2D. So anime companies are stuck using commercial tools and then modifying them with their limited experience. That's why most anime CG looks pretty terrible and not much better than MMDs you see on niconico.

The new Guilty Gear game is pretty much the ONLY instance that has really pushed the 3D2D technology forward. In an interview they said they pretty much build their engine from the ground up with tools that allow them to apply traditional 2D transformations and frame interpolations onto 3D assets, which is pretty a first in the industry. This is why in the new GG they can do a lot of 2D effects that have been impossible in 3D until now.

That's why I said it'd be great if ArcSys releases their engine/toolset. It'd push the entire industry forward and everyone can start improving upon that as the base.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by Esclair

The tech is almost there though. Just look at the new GG Xrd (skip to 1 minute mark). 100% 3-D cell shaded CG:

That's actually pretty good for now, but nowhere near the goal line, just need to improve more and I think we can touch that realm lol.
That background music reminds me of Godsmack lol.

[sunchips18]

Originally Posted by Esclair

The tech is actually not very developed. Western companies gave up on 2D and went into 3D completely. They don't see a need to try to get 3D to look like 2D. The only market where the market for 3D that looks like 2D would be big is Japan, and they're relatively inexperienced.

Almost all the 3D techniques that keep pushing 3D animation forward are done in Universities and then adopted by 3D rendering companies. There's very little research done in the field of 3D->2D. So anime companies are stuck using commercial tools and then modifying them with their limited experience. That's why most anime CG looks pretty terrible and not much better than MMDs you see on niconico.

The new Guilty Gear game is pretty much the ONLY instance that has really pushed the 3D2D technology forward. In an interview they said they pretty much build their engine from the ground up with tools that allow them to apply traditional 2D transformations and frame interpolations onto 3D assets, which is pretty a first in the industry. This is why in the new GG they can do a lot of 2D effects that have been impossible in 3D until now.

That's why I said it'd be great if ArcSys releases their engine/toolset. It'd push the entire industry forward and everyone can start improving upon that as the base.

Might I ask, how are you so knowledgeable on this subject? I'm really enjoying your posts.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by sunchips18

Might I ask, how are you so knowledgeable on this subject? I'm really enjoying your posts.

I specialized in Computer Graphics/Vision when I went to grad school (although I ended up not doing pursuing it) so I have at least a breadth view of the subject. My advisor actually won a Technical Oscars for a paper he wrote in 1987, which introduced a lot of CG techniques that was used in modern films like the Harry Potter movies and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So I got a pretty good view of what the graphics academics were working on just by studying under him.

[agoodcupoftea]

Only went through p.1 and p.4, but did NO ONE mention The Boondocks? And that was an adaptation of what was more or less a yon-koma (not that a literal four panel format is a thing in the West.

Although, growing up in Japan, on coming stateside in the 90s, the EN definition of "anime" always struck me as a bit odd, seeing as the word really is just short for animation, and yes, Darkwing Duck and Ren and Stimpy are anime to me and anyone from Japan.

Just had to say it.

The Boondocks, c'mon...

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by agoodcupoftea

Only went through p.1 and p.4, but did NO ONE mention The Boondocks? And that was an adaptation of what was more or less a yon-koma (not that a literal four panel format is a thing in the West.

Although, growing up in Japan, on coming stateside in the 90s, the EN definition of "anime" always struck me as a bit odd, seeing as the word really is just short for animation, and yes, Darkwing Duck and Ren and Stimpy are anime to me and anyone from Japan.

Just had to say it.

The Boondocks, c'mon...

True but that's the common use it's not like anime is the only word that's happened with salsa in Spanish just means sauce but that's not how it's used in America. And it's not like there was no reason to try and distinguish it from it's western counterparts.

As for the topic all I can say is I hope not I love RWBY but other attempts by larger studios such as with Avatar the Last Airbender it just seem so forced that it was painful to watch.