Toradora! - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Darknemo2000]

Samatarou, Asuka from Evangelion is also considered a tsundere (in fact I remember the times when tsundere term was not as popular as it is now and when evangelion was on its peak, it was even used a 'term' 'Asuka-like' to describe tsunderes) and you cannot say that she is not psychotic.

A lot of tsundere's are actually psychotic and have troubles to control their mood swings just like Taiga so for me it looks like from this aspect Taiga is still a tsundere. As if both happen in a same relationship then a character is considered a tsundere be she/he loud or silent cold. Probably because of this we see so many characters labeled as tsundere.

Lately some started questioning Asuka being a tsundere due to the lack of her dere moments with Shinji (there are very little of those) something similar is with Taiga and Ryuuji one moment of niceness (or anger) doesnt mean that a character keep acting like that for continuous period of time. taiga could be a bitch who just had one moment of weakness through the whole series for example. The tsun and dere should be part of a relationship.

In fact Taiga and Asuka are rather similar in a sense that both are damaged by their childhood (Though Taiga is significantly less and much more sane than Asuka) and have uncontrollable mood swings, and are hard to predict.

Asuka's difference is from Taiga's (if we ignore the most obvious difference is that Asuka's character reaches to the core of human existence as such through philosophy) that she like Ami also plays double games and puts a 'nice-girl' mask on as she wants people to prise her so she could find a reason to exist.

I suppose Asuka is what you get when you mix Ami with Taiga...or if we talk chronologically... Ami and Taiga is what you get when you split Asuka's personality up.

[kir44n]

Hmm, it is interesting that if you take two of Asuka's major characteristics and seperate them, you would get Ami & Taiga. Of course, this implies Asuka has twice the problems as Ami or Taiga ^^

Back onto Tsundere in any case, the Tsundere category is extremely broad in its spectrum if you include some of the most memorable recent examples. Some fit a certain mold well (Taiga, Louise, Shana), others are rather different (Asuka, Kallen). All have been called Tsundere, but have varying degrees of personal trauma, physical capabilities and other side traits.

[Tyabann]

Kallen is nowhere near a tsundere. That's just people trying to stick a label on her.

She just isn't given enough focus in the series for it to really be apparent anyway.


Also, Lulu died. Creator said so.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by kir44n

I like how this thread has turned into an analysis on the social phenomenon of human stereotyping, how it pertains to literature and media, as well as how this phenomenon changes & morphs over time.

In any event, Toradora is interesting in that it has multifaceted characters, and deals with certain things in a slightly different style than one has already come to expect. For instance, I expected Taiga to have her crush on Kitamura unknown to him for at least half the season. When she confessed to him by the second episode, my expectations for the show were completely blown out of the water, and I had no idea how to possibly gauge how future events may play out.

The classic example I always thought of tsundere character is Akane from Ranma. We all know and what to expect from Akane. A current modern tsundere character as we all known is Naru from Love Hina, her personality and what we understand from her character is straightforward. The problem with Taiga, she is so multilayer character, it's hard to actually state her as a tsundere, even though she does have some tsundere personality. But, she also have sweet (maybe a dere towards Ryuuji at times too) personality when she and Ryuuji stay up all night, during the time Ryuuji was "enchancing" her swinsuit. Since Toradora is a character driven anime, Taiga is not your typical tsundere character, even thou she has that trait, but it's so lame, that we do not expect what will happen next with her.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, as pertains the facilities provided by stereotyping, I'll leave each of you to your own ideas. I've stated my piece, and even when doing so, I'm not out to force it on anyone - and this is hardly the place for such a discussion, anyway.

So, let's all agree to disagree and move on, shall we?

Yea... yea... yea..., we are going to move forward, la la la. Doing my Mirorin impression again

Originally Posted by Samatarou

(Response to that bit moved to sig request thread)


Returning to the discussion, on the tsundere thing, I'm in the camp that doesn't think of Taiga as tsundere, but rather as someone who's emotionally out of control with her wild mood swings. I just don't see her as the same character type as people like Kagami or Naru Narusegawa, she's too psychotic and random. I also agree with MaiHikari that a tsundere should be more verbal in their tsun'ing and not just bully people.

I couldnt have said it better then myself, I totally agree. Taiga is a more complex character then the typical tsundere type.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I find labeling to be a very poor mark of character. Sometimes, we resort to it, in order to over simplify our impressions. In sum, I neither like nor condone it. In regards to works of fiction, it is pandering to the lowest common denominator. In real life, it's cause for horrible fights.

Meow!!! meow!!! Pfffff!!! Pfffff!!!!

[Darknemo2000]

Actually Shana or Louise are just as much unpredictable as Taiga is. You know what happens in ZnT volume 9, but I doubt you could have predicted for Louise to act that way.

Taiga can be predictable at some patterns as well - involve Kitamura - dere dere guaranteed, involve Ami - tsun tsun is what you'll see. Involve Ryuuji - tsun tsun for the most and sometimes dere. Louise is the same as her dere moments are like Taiga's, hard to predict actually.

Taiga's actions are not that hard to predict when we compare her to such characters like Haruhi or Horo/ Those are the characters that are hard to predict. Taiga in this case is not too far from your normal tsundere's that she does have an acting pattern which she does tend to follow for the most part. her scream was random but again this is more connected with poor build-up rather than a trait of her character since so far she was following her acting pattern rather closely.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Vexx

tsundere has an original specific meaning that really only eroge software games can emulate (where the term originated). Anime adaptations have to deal with more of the realities of multi-layered characters and when the source material is a light novel or manga .... the author is usually trying to develope a more complex character than a classic tsundere. One of the Shiriashi rants in Lucky*Star addressed this morphing of the word directly.

Other than using the term as a checkpoint - it is somewhat pointless to try and *label* characters -- it is just trying to squeeze more complicated characters into simple boxes.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

But elbelling is for purpose of being helpful as well. Without labels you would not be able to understand what this or that is about in short.

Yes labels do rarely totally match, but they do help to give out a short-information for you to pick, so I view labels as useful.

Originally Posted by Lugia_yao

well, a "pure" tsundere character is no more popular these days
need multiple elements

I really like Darknemo2000 details, yet we all have to agree that Taiga is more complex person then the usual tsundere character. Labeling her as one type, does not fit her personality in general. Its like saying Ryuuji in the beginning was expected to be the "soft" character, while in this episode he did got mad/pissed at Taiga, which shows a complex person with multilayer traits as well. In this episode, we cannot even compare Ryuuji as the usual protagonist character at this point, because it also falls on Taiga as a main protagonist too. Hence the word Toradora.

Darknemo2000, my brother agrees with your post about the definition on tsundere, but he stated that its hard to even label Taiga as such. I've spent a good hour with him talking about Taiga's complex character, and try to compare it with other tsundere character. Even though he was comparing it to Nagi from Kannagi (his favorite anime), but I told him they are not the same.

[Vexx]

Too many people *use* labels as a way to avoid having to deal with more complex facets of a character. Essentially its a way to stop having to think about them. "Oh yeah, she's a loli-tsundere".... no more thinking required. They label and move on. "That's a mecha show, meh" and so on.

That's why I tend to object to them -- some people may use the terms as starting points, but many more people use them as endpoints of analysis.

So, with that - yeah, move along time.

[Zippicus]

Pretty much all of the characters in this show are too complex to slap a simple label on, it just does them a disservice.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Aye, everyone in this cast is dysfunctional and broken in different ways. Its a *story* about such people and how they bond (or not). Taiga has a really thick shell but clearly Ryuuji senses it is just a shell (as does Minorin and Kitamura). Ami has several facets - none quite healthy; her dysfunctionality is almost driving her into psychosis and it comes out in fits of meanness; but Kitamura thinks there's something salvageable in her and eventually so does Ryuuji. Taiga wants to help but only for Kitamura's sake. Minorin has a crusty shell of manic comedic happy happy joy joy -- haven't quite got an angle on her inner demons yet. Kitamura seems incapable of fixing anything himself, has a thing about rough women. Sumire looks beautiful, talks tough, but can't seem to remember anything. The teacher is neurotic over her "christmas cake dilemma", Ryuuji's mom is a sad little basketcase of a widow working a pretend happyhappy job.
And so on and so on.

The result is character-driven drama as they interact and comedy in the tragic sense about the human condition. Okay, that's putting a bit too much weight on the story -- but for some of us, we're finding that somewhat compelling.

In this episode, where Ryuuji was at the station and suddenly Mirorin pops up (it believe it was a train station...?), I was laughing how Ryuuji reacted surprised. Yet, it shows how trusting Mirorin is towards Ryuuji, and how highly she thinks of him. So far, its the first time, beside school, that those two were together alone. The only other female character I could think Ryuuji actually spend time without Taiga was of course Ami. Funny, it seems that she REALLY wanted to be with Ryuuji, hence spending time at the villa, specially when she whisper him at the end. I think that Ami is more open to Ryuuji now, because he accepted her who she really is, and because of that Ami is more determine to be with him. She wouldn't have said to him discreetly "Too bad I can't spend time with you alone... But, there's always a chance!".

[Darknemo2000]

Vexx, this was the point I was trying to make. Labels are useful when you want to starts and have a direction (labels will never guide you but can show which direction it goes and if you like it or not). It can be misleading but usually they are helpful, but only as starting points. Use a label as a final description of a character and you will not go anywhere just kill your own experience. taiga is a tsundere but at the same time she goes further than that (actually many characters as loong as they are well done do, like Louise from ZnT (of course that happens only in the novels as anime decided to kill any possible character depth for the sake of more boob-jokes)).

[destiny4everlove]

Episode 8

-Lol! “Sorry arl, Ami is mine”.

-Ryuuji betting 3,000 tyrols on Taiga was so sweet!!!

-Even when sleeping in class Minori is hilarious!!! That scene was so funny.

-“Image training is good enough” Taiga was so cute and funny while doing that.

-Kitamura betting on Taiga was so nice.

-I wonder if Ami is truly falling for Ryuuji.

-Loved the conversation between Minori and Ryuuji! I still think they make a lovely couple.


-Taiga kicking the pool table was a very interesting moment. I think she did it because she was jealous of Ami, she didn’t like the idea of Ryuuji spending time with Ami, just the two of them all alone in her villa. I also think she did it because she was confused with her own thoughts, she was fully realizing that she wanted to win not because of Kitamura, or because she disliked Ami, it was because she didn’t want for Ryuuji to go away with Ami-chan, and I think this thought kind of scared her, so there was a mix of emotions inside of Taiga, which led to her kicking the pool table.

-Ryuuji wanting for Taiga to win...mmm…it seems Taiga’s feelings are not the only ones that are starting to change.

-Taiga’s decoy to wing against Ami was priceless , it’s was underhanded but priceless nonetheless.

-Taiga trying to rescue Ryuuji even when she doesn’t fully know how to swim was so touching. I loved it!! Taiga’s actions always speak louder than her words.

-“Ryuuji is mine. No one touch him”, loved that scene! Taiga has realized that Ryuuji is an important person to her, but she hasn’t fully realized just how important Ryuuji is to her, and by that I mean that she hasn’t fully realized that her feelings are not longer those of a master for her “dog”.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Vexx, this was the point I was trying to make. Labels are useful when you want to starts and have a direction (labels will never guide you but can show which direction it goes and if you like it or not). It can be misleading but usually they are helpful, but only as starting points. Use a label as a final description of a character and you will not go anywhere just kill your own experience. taiga is a tsundere but at the same time she goes further than that (actually many characters as loong as they are well done do, like Louise from ZnT (of course that happens only in the novels as anime decided to kill any possible character depth for the sake of more boob-jokes)).

But the problem is that people who 'label' generally get a certain impression, which may have a negative reaction to it. Now i'll agree with labels being used by, say, a director/creator, to determine how he wants his or her character to be. Labeling is exactly what transpired in the first ep of this show, with people giving 'oh no'es and 'just another tsundere', then dropping the show because of it. Just like you always like to talk about how great the ZnT novels are, there are some people who've seen the anime and gave it a label, forever preventing them from trying the novel form because the anime is crap. In other words, labeling can prevent watchers/readers from further experiencing a show despite how good it may become as you get more involved.

[Eisdrache]

I didnt really read the last 8 pages nor do I care about the people who dont like Taiga, but I LOVED this episode, specially when Taiga goes all emotional over Ryuuji <333 I wished for a TaigaxRyuuji relationship since episode1, so I am uber-happy that she finally shows some emotions towards him

One second before the swimming match started, I thought just what has Taiga in her mind now and BAM! she goes all out on Ami xD I was like WHAT THE HELL AWESOME IDEA GO GO TAIGA FTW !!! <333

This happens very rarely for anime I watch, but I like Taiga so much now it comes close to Shana levels.

[HashiriyaR32]

Originally Posted by satuross

hoho, please dont put taiga at the same level of awesomeness as etna k :/

if taiga was the moon, etna's awesomeness would be something between the size of jupiter and saturn, if u get what i mean.
Anyways, i think her stings are mainly on her words (dog, slave, yadayada) rather then physically abusive.

yes, she sometimes pokes/kicks/slaps. but who wont want to if your friend in front of you is staring shamlessly at a waitress/ hit you with a broom first thing in the morning/ talk bad about your physique##


thats what i think anyways. ill probably be bombed for still being a newbie but.. hehe *runs away*

I was actually using a seiyuu joke, since Ryuuji's VA (Junji Majima) voiced the Prinny Squad in the Disgaea series.

[Tiran86]

Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32

I was actually using a seiyuu joke, since Ryuuji's VA (Junji Majima) voiced the Prinny Squad in the Disgaea series.

Seriously? In the games or the anime? Or both?

[HashiriyaR32]

He's does the voice of the Prinnies (except for Kurtis and Big Sis Prinny) in EVERY GAME they've been in. And yes this includes "Prinny: Can I really be the Hero?". And this applies to the anime as well.

[Tiran86]

Ah thats why it didn't register, I played the game in english. That's still cool though.

[-Sho-]

Just watch ep 8 :

Finnaly Taiga shows her feelings toward takusu !The challenge was good , ami won thought !
Ami really like takusu !

[OkamiNoKaze]

Wow what a great episode, I was not expecting that announcement from Taiga.