Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Nukerjsr

Spoiler for Nagisa and Diseases:

I wish Key would just define the disease. We have thousands at this point, I just wish that they would pick one. Fevers aren't permanent. We can hypothesis atleast that it is not AIDS, because while Ushio is affected by the disease, then Tomoya would recieve it to. A cancer would work too, but I assume then that Nagisa would be missing her hair from chemotherapy. Cancer goes in and out remission, so it could of work.

They should of just said Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and be done with it. It's not hard to do research.

[House]It's never Lupus[/House]

[Justin Kim]

Ok for those who have seen episode 16, read the spoiler. For those that haven't don't read it - I am warning you! Does anyone have predictions that Nagisa may indeed come back in Clannad After Story? Because there are pretty much multiple endings when I played the game. Do you think it may be that Tomoya will find his happy ending with Ushio? Or will KEY input the balls of light story (Because I would really like to see the Okazaki family with everyone: Ushio, Tomoya, and Nagisa). So does anyone have speculations that it is possible that maybe KEY will throw in an OVA, or use up 3 - 2episodes dedicated to their happinness together? I mean I already knew it was going to happen, but I really wish to see the balls of light.

Spoiler:

Nagisa dies after she gives birth to Ushio. Pretty much her pregnancy kills her frail state that she always had T_T. I always hate it when a main character dies, but then again it's KEY revolving around the original story line

[OmegaPhlare]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Yes, Nagisa wanted to have her child, I understand that. However, that is just trying to excuse her naivety/stupidity, or what ever word you want to use.

What I get out of this is and other similar statements is that child birth is heavily frowned upon by sensible people because most other stupid people are doing it as an accident or for the wrong reasons. A perfectly reasonable couple like Tomoya and Nagisa should have children if they want. Tomoya is a hard working guy who treats Nagisa with love and Nagisa is a kind person who thinks of other people as important like herself. They aren't really hurting themselves or the people around them, which is more than we can say most parents in real life. Adoption is fixing another person's mistake, which I would never do because it is putting all of your effort into the non-solution of a bigger problem. Nagisa would have made a very good mother. The finances and maturity of the two of them was sufficient enough to make this work out. Yet it all fell apart when Nagisa did not survive the pregnancy: the good mother who was supposed to raise the baby with love is no more.

But it wasn't like Nagisa intended to die for Ushio. The couple had really hoped to raise Ushio together. And that success should never be called naive or stupid. Please don't call another person naive or stupid for wanting to have a child unless that person really is an awful person. Could it be that you just said this the wrong way on accident?

But if you're saying that Nagisa was stupid for wanting a child even though her life was at risk, then... She says herself that even if her body is weak, she wants to live strongly. If the person I loved thought that, then I probably would support her, since that seems essential to who she is. If you ever have to deny your love of their own feelings, then you may be with the wrong person, right? Which is probably why Tomoya would rather blame himself for first speaking to Nagisa, rather than blaming himself for getting her pregnant or not convincing her to abort the child.

I said this earlier but again, I am thinking that Nagisa had to have a very special and intimate reason for wanting a child. I don't think she would want to have a baby simply because of some maternal calling, biological clock, or whatever. I sure hope the show answers this. In fact I suspected that the answer to this question is central to CLANNAD being about family.

[Justin Kim]

Can someone answer my question? Lol. Like I really want to know your guy's opinion on if Nagisa will ever really come back. Like does anyone think that Tomoya, Ushio, the robot, and the girl in his dreams will have a chance to revert time and collect the orbs of light to revive Nagisa and live a happy life?

[Proto]

You might want to try the speculation thread for first time viewers instead.

/me watches at the pile of posts he'd had to reply if he wanted to continue the argument.

You guys sure worked hard last night huh?

I could bring in a few arguments, like why the doctors didn't determined that allowing Nagisa to reach labor time would have been too dangerous and didn't perform a preemptive caesarian section and whatnot, but without more information about the circumstances beyond 'she was sickly' I guess it's pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'll leave it at that.

[zSolaris]

;______________________________;


This episode......made me cry (almost literally). But, it was so, so, so, so, so, goooooooooood.




Nagisa-chan, rest in peace. ;____________;

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Well, at least it is clear that the decision to have a child went into fruition with some sense talked into the people involved. I honestly am more than impressed with Akio and Sanae regarding how they recognized what their roles are at this point of their daughter's life. Akio has shown maturity by not letting his own instinctive feelings and emotions intervene with the logical course of actions, and Sanae supported the couple while ebbing them to mature into parental roles.

@Proto: unfortunately, the best-laid out planned in this take by KyoAni became moot due to the heavy snowfall and the early birth...

I am glad that decided to go to the hospital and all that. It would be irresponsible and make them complete fools to do a home birth if her life was at stake.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Did you watch the episode? She conceded. She was going to go to the hospital, but they were snowed in.

It really wasn't anyone's fault, it was simply bad luck. I certainly don't think it's fair to label this as forced drama when nothing that happened was the result of a bad or unjustified decision made by any one character. Given the cruel twist of fate, and the fact that if just one thing was different with the delivery, she may have survived, it could almost be seen as fate that she died that day.

Bad luck indeed. Like Tomoya said, of all days it had to start the day of the snow storm.

[Klashikari]

I absolutely didn't want to stir matters about personal point of view etc, but factual statements like this irk me like no tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Considering the condition she was in, even staying for a week would have been completely feasible. Given who Nagisa is, and the condition of her body overall, that apartment was the absolute worst place for her to be. Gooooooood job.

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Do we have dates for damn near ANYTHING IMPORTANT IN THIS SHOW?

Please stop state stuff that don't make sense AT ALL. If you don't know medical care and the like, please don't post that.

1 week? Even preemptive hospitalization of mere 1-2 days CAN BE refused, because of place and queue issue.
1 week is downright impossible for most case, and this is even worse for pregnancy and birth.

And date? I don't think if I should burst your bubble, but science is not almighty. Determining the term of pregnancy is by no mean accurate science. In general, it is MUCH rarer to have a exact date for the birth date, people assuming you have a general leeway of 1 week.
However, preterm and the like are common events, so it is nearly impossible to predict that (especially when the bag of waters rupturs by itself out of nowhere). People having birth during flight travels and the like are absolutely not at fault most of the case: they can't command at will when the labor starts (until you do it forcefully, post-term, with heavy dosis of prostaglandin and performing an amniotomy).


While the snow might be debatable, the date and the circumstances of the labor are absolutely NOT controllable, let alone predictable.
Mothers waiting in hospital before labor is a DAMN MYTH. The vast majority have to go the hospital as an emergency, only when they dumbfoundedly notice that the amniotic sac is ruptured.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

However, preterm and the like are common events, so it is nearly impossible to predict that (especially when the bag of waters rupturs by itself out of nowhere).

I second that from my personal experience. My parents, especially my mother did not expect her bag of waters to break, leading to the labor and birth of my second sister.

(unpleasant experience was my 8 y/o self slipping on the water when I was just minding my own business that was grabbing something in the fridge .__.)


Moreover, on the topic of why they did not bring her to the hospital, there was obvious money issues and, yes, pregnancy and its happenings are a very unpredicable thing. How is the health care system in japan? Close to USA system? Or Canada?

[Proto]

From Wikipedia

In the Japanese health care system, healthcare services, including free screening examinations for particular diseases, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments
(...)
In Japan, services are provided either through regional/national public hospitals or through private hospitals/clinics, and patients have universal access to any facility, though hospitals tend to charge higher for those without a referral. Public health insurance covers most citizens/residents and pays 70% or more cost for each care and each prescribed drug. Patients are responsible for the remainder (upper limits apply)

[Gundampilotspaz]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Yeah but you say that like it's a cute little thing that she can get away with what she wants, this is her life we're talking about, not whether or not he goes out to get her a pint of ice cream or buys her jewelry or the like.

:\

When has Nagisa ever asked for something like that? She wouldn't. What she really cares about is accomplishing her goals, and pushing the envelope to do it because she is ill.

She didn't have to finish High School. Tomoya wanted to take care of her. She could have worked with her parents at the bakery. But she wanted to finish and she pushed her physical limits in order to do it.

It would have been uncharacteristic for her to give up on having the baby. And it would have been uncharacteristic of Tomoya to tell her that she couldn't have the baby. If that's the way the story went all believability would have completely gone out the window.

[destiny4everlove]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

That scene really shouldn't be understated. It's easy to glance over the importance of it after the impact of what just happened.

I don’t think I did that. It’s because I understood the importance of that scene that it broke my heart.

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

But that scene and his dialogue have now set the mood for the rest of the series.

I completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

Tomoya wants to go back so far that he never met Nagisa. Tomoya is willing to sacrifice the revitalization of his life in order to save Nagisa. Everything that he had accomplished from that point was because he met Nagisa. He might not have graduated high school, he wouldn't have the promising career he has, and he definitely wouldn't be able to maintain a relationship.

I understand your point, but the reason why I said it was a selfish wish is because of what Tomoya himself said during that scene. He wished to have never met Nagisa and then he said “then this sadness would never have haunted me”. So the wish is not just to save Nagisa is also so he didn’t have to go through such a great sadness and pain. The wish is also for Tomoya’s sake. I see your point and that’s why I now think Tomoya’s wish was not as selfish as I thought it was, but I still think it was selfish.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Originally Posted by destiny4everlove

I understand your point, but the reason why I said it was a selfish wish is because of what Tomoya himself said during that scene. He wished to have never met Nagisa and then he said “then this sadness would never have haunted me”. So the wish is not just to save Nagisa is also so he didn’t have to go through such a great sadness and pain. The wish is also for Tomoya’s sake. I see your point and that’s why I now think Tomoya’s wish was not as selfish as I thought it was, but I still think it was selfish.

There might be a little selfishness in his words. Considering what he's going to have to go though that isn't surprising. But although he said, "This saddness would never have happened." He also built a happy future for Nagisa if they had never met. He said something to the effect of, "She would have met someone else and lived a long happy life..." (I don't have the episode here with me, otherwise I'd check) But you also have to take into effect the idea I stated above, the reason that Tomoya was able to grow as a character was because of Nagisa. So if he never called out to her on that day everything he has accomplished would also be erased. He is willing to do that if she could still be alive.

[destiny4everlove]

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

He also built a happy future for Nagisa if they had never met. he said something to the effect of, "She would have met someone else and lived a long happy life..."

I agree with you on that, that’s why I said "I now think Tomoya’s wish was not as selfish as I thought it was". In a way, he would have sacrificed all the happiness he had with Nagisa if that would mean Nagisa alive and happy.

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

But you also have to take into effect the idea I stated above, the reason that Tomoya was able to grow as a character was because of Nagisa.

I took it and I agree with you, and moreover, that’s one of the reasons why I love Tomoya x Nagisa so much.

Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz

So if he never called out to her on that day everything he has accomplished would also be erased. He is willing to do that if she could still be alive.

I agree…but that doesn’t erase the fact that the wish was a little selfish…I’m not condemning Tomoya for doing it…I mean it’s normal for a person to want to protect himself or herself from pain and sadness.

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What Nagisa wanted was to have a child with her Tomoya-kun. For it to be THEIR child.

So? The ends didn't justify the means. She was sick and potentially more likely to die from childbirth then the average woman. They all knew that but went ahead with it just because of pride and dna. They really didn't think this through or consider the consequences. I always knew Nagisa was a retard, but damn...oh well, at least I don't have to hear her sing the dango song anymore, lol.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

So? The ends didn't justify the means. She was sick and potentially more likely to die from childbirth then the average woman. They all knew that but went ahead with it just because of pride and dna. They really didn't think this through or consider the consequences. I always knew Nagisa was a retard, but damn...oh well, at least I don't have to hear her sing the dango song anymore, lol.

...Wow. Just wow.

Why are you watching this show at all?



Also, to all of you complaining about Nagisa's unknown disease... it should be answered eventually.

[Klashikari]

Because of pride...?
I fail to see how parents would sacrifice themselves for a child out of pride, especially considering character like Nagisa.

I seriously question this statement here: the life of a child is nothing like a possession or whatnot, it doesn't have anything to do a random pride of some old fashioned family that need offspring for their bloodline.
It has nothing to do with this. I'm quite astonished that you can even consider that kind of explanation.


"So? The ends didn't justify the means." I'm sorry, but it wasn't never a "trade off" to begin with. It isn't like you lost something to gain something else. it is a complete another level.
And not considering the consequences? I believe episode 15 and their promise was nothing of a red herring: they did consider as well the worst case scenario and thought about that. Tomoya was almost flinching for abortion, but Nagisa couldn't accept that (and any mother with that cruel dilemna wouldn't choose "abortion" all the time. That is silly, it is depending of each individual).

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

...Wow. Just wow.

Why are you watching this show at all?



Also, to all of you complaining about Nagisa's unknown disease... it should be answered eventually.

I watch this show because I'm entertained. Any show that can make me feel all sorts of heavy emotions is worth watching. I don't care about what the disease is, all that matters to me is that it was a major obstacle in Nagisa having a safe delivery....and now shes dead.

You'd probably call her a retard too if the disease was aids. But the way I see it, the disease Nagisa had was no better than that. Considering what they were up against, there was nothing wrong with adoption.

[Ithekro]

As I said earlier, religion and cultural beliefs can also play a big part in this matter. The thing is that we don't know what Nagisa or Tomoya's religious upbringing is like (if they have any at all). I mention this because to some religions "abortion" is never an option. It is not even considered. There are other things that culture and religion could influence heavily in their situation, but we can't really know because we don't know those sorts of details (to my knowledge at least).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

You'd probably call her a retard too if the disease was aids. But the way I see it, the disease Nagisa had was no better than that.

Her disease never proved ultimately fatal. Until now.


And please, please, stop using the term "retard". It's VERY offensive.