The AnimeSuki Forum Reputation System has been retired

[ninryu]

It's a bit of a shame, as I no longer be able to rep up those who made me a sig or an avatar, but considering the amount of 'negative-rep trolling' I guess it is necessary. I myself got some nasty anonymous rep-downs just because I don't like harems.

[monster]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

We covet your feedback

While this thread is a good first step in getting feedback, I think it will be more useful if or when you decide to have a replacement for the recently retired reputation system to share a more concrete plan once you have it but before it becomes final.

So maybe have a thread about the proposed replacement (again, once you have it). Then people can actually give feedback about the replacement rather than just throwing out ideas.

It's kind of like preview releases in software.

As for my own feedback for now: Consider not having a replacement.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monster

So maybe have a thread about the proposed replacement. Then people can actually give feedback about the replacement rather than just throwing out ideas.

Well, to be clear, at this point we're all very much at the "throwing out ideas" phase anyway, so that isn't unexpected by any means. And yeah, well, not having a replacement at all is certainly one of the options, and I guess it's the de facto result if nothing changes.

(And that's really it for me for tonight...)

[monster]

I don't mean right now, of course. As I said, only once you have a more concrete plan. (See the edited statement above.)

[synaesthetic]

"Thanks" systems work very well in a utilitarian forum. The other forum I spend too much time on, XDA-Developers, uses a Thanks system.

This works well for XDA because people often come to XDA with problems--they need help rooting their phone, or their phone/custom OS/app/etc doesn't work. Or they have a question, some pain point that needs to be soothed.

Thing is, XDA is not a discussion forum, not really. It's a technical forum, largely built up around the rooting and unlocking of Android and Windows Phone devices, the creation of custom OS images and applications for smartphones, tablets and other mobile devices.

Animesuki, as much as I so very obviously love it, is pretty much a pure discussion forum. A "Thanks" system would really only have much relevance in subforums like Suggestions, Tech Support, Playback Help and the like. It doesn't have much relevance in a discussion subforum for a given TV show.

[sayde]

I guess the only thing I'll personally miss about the rep system is how it allowed us to express a brief statement without having to make a separate post just to do it.

So my immediate wish list would be 3 things with an optional 4th request to consider:

1.) Keep neutral rep in place just so we can at least retain a way of replying to a post without having to clutter up a thread

2.) With netrual rep being the only rep we can give, remove the rep restriction (so we can comment on multiple posts from a user). Because lets face it--with only neutral rep, we won't have to worry about people abusing the system since there would no longer be any incentive for doing so.

3.) As others have already stated, reveal usernames of those who leave rep for the sake of drastically reducing the likelihood of those seeking to troll fellow forum members in private.

4.) <Optional> I suppose a rep system that does not hand out positive or negative rep and ultimately does nothing but provide users with another way to respond to a post can't really be considered a rep system anymore. So come up with a new name for it?

In the distant future, if the admins really want to come up with some way to acknowledge long time, active, and productive members of this site then maybe we can resort to something similar to gamefaqs karma system where Karma rises and falls depending on forum conduct and participation.

For those who are unfamiliar with how it works, 1 point of Karma is given per day just for logging in and having one active post. That's to say, posts in a locked thread won't count. (users aren't typically rewarded any more than 1 per day, regardless of how many posts they make or have active). Karma can obviously get deducted if a moderator deems your forum conduct inappropriate. Karma will also get a nice boost once a year based on special conditions which seem to change annually. For example, maybe the boost will depend on things like how many total days the user has logged on, or how many posts they've made for the year, or how many times they've replied to threads in the suggestion forum, or maybe all of those conditions.

In short, this boost can be based on any number of things. And the possibilities are literally limitless. So since there's no way to know what conditions the admins will decide to base the annual karma boost on for the year, there's never any point in trying to abuse the system since users wouldn't know what they'd have to manipulate to get the reward. The best you can hope to do is become involved in as many aspects of forum participation as possible if such a thing really matters that much to you.

Anyways, I'm sure people will find tons of problems with the things I suggested above. But that's my 2 cents regardless.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

"Thanks" systems work very well in a utilitarian forum. The other forum I spend too much time on, XDA-Developers, uses a Thanks system.

This works well for XDA because people often come to XDA with problems--they need help rooting their phone, or their phone/custom OS/app/etc doesn't work. Or they have a question, some pain point that needs to be soothed.

Thing is, XDA is not a discussion forum, not really. It's a technical forum, largely built up around the rooting and unlocking of Android and Windows Phone devices, the creation of custom OS images and applications for smartphones, tablets and other mobile devices.

Animesuki, as much as I so very obviously love it, is pretty much a pure discussion forum. A "Thanks" system would really only have much relevance in subforums like Suggestions, Tech Support, Playback Help and the like. It doesn't have much relevance in a discussion subforum for a given TV show.

I like the idea of some sort of "thanks" system (maybe a truncated rep system (pos only) that doesn't appear on the avatar square?), from a thread management standpoint. It lets us thank the poster (for whatever reason, avatar/siggie/goodjob) using the comment field in that back-channel on the User CP rather than cluttering the thread up with one line "thank you" posts.

Not quite sure if that made sense, need to stop and sleep.

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think that anonymous negative rep is just one of the problems with the reputation system. Even if you just have positive rep it is still:

- a system that people can easily game to support their friends/allies rather than actual good posting behaviour
- a status symbol that people can use to pre-judge a poster (or to measure their own perceived "worth")
- a tool that people can still use anonymously to make people feel bad even if they're giving "positive points" in the process

Like I said before, the problem here isn't the system itself, but it's how people exploit the system. Can we really make a perfect system? Probably not. Does that mean we should leave it out because we can't? That's boring. Nothing is perfect and we have to learn to deal with it. I do agree that we should try out best to get close to it, which is exactly what this thread is for.

1) We can have some assholes doing whatever they want, because they're so obscure and irrelevant. And to be honest, I've never encountered one of these people who boosted their friends/allies.

2) And I also said before that the status symbol argument doesn't hold up because it assumes everyone is stupid. If you read a few threads on here, then you would get the idea that having a huge bar doesn't mean your opinion is correct, and vice versa. Furthermore, what are you going to do if you pre-judge a poster? If you actually stay around to do something about it, then you're going to read more of what that poster says sooner or later, and form your own proper opinions. I truly hope no one will reply with, "People can't be expected to form their own opinions."

3) This is once again what I said earlier, assholes exploiting a system that's not meant to be used that way. Think about it--is there ANY WAY we can stop this with ANY system, except to remove comments from rep entirely, which is a TERRIBLE idea? No, not really. You can also report these nasty "postive reps"; they would affect me exactly the same as a troll reply and reporting that post on a thread. So we don't need to stop something that already happens in a similar way, which can't be enforced, only reported.

[Klashikari]

That is the reason why the system must be scrapped: if it is that easely exploitable, its very flaws hardly cover the needs, and the benefits don't offset the drawbacks.

Also, it is very unlikely members would notice such individuals, unless 1) they are part of that clique 2) they are victims of that.
Simply put, we have encountered far too many abuse in both posrep grind and negrep snipe/revenge spree that it just bring too many inconveniences on either the short and long term.

And really, I still don't get why people can't use VM/PM/social groups or even personal messenger to convey and share their ideas. It is just a damn click away of doing so, and it is actually more beneficial on the long run. That and the fact basing people on bogus value that has no real scale whatsoever surely convinced us a rep system is absolutely obsolete.

So in a nutshell, removing the system forces some people to actually approach directly the said member they intended to comment on, and basically cut the chase with people abusing a point/rep system.

[KholdStare]

First I would say that I understand what I don't see, which is probably lots of moderation going on about reputation that it just seems like it's not worth it anymore.

But to us, it's something that's so...useful and convenient when it's being used right. And no, I don't want to get into a discussion on my profile page or via PM about everything. Sometimes (and that means most of the time), I just want to acknowledge a good point...without making a spam post about it. Is that so bad? Not everyone wants to tl;dr about every single topic. When someone tells me to "take it to PM" on a thread, I don't and just quit discussing. Social groups were a thing when it first came out, but then it's just inconvenient and a bother to check on. Now that system is pretty much useless in my opinion.

Of course, the point now becomes when it's being used right, and obviously from what I hear, it's not. We don't have to scrap it, but fix it as best as we can. Because to me at least and others, it IS useful. It's not just a big deceptive e-peen meter (which mine isn't very long anyways). If it's completely pointless, then I wouldn't be wasting my time posting about it now, right? The current system is bad and I approve of abandoning it. We just don't need to have a vendetta against all reputation systems and instead try to brainstorm for a better one.

[miroku2192]

I was about to give someone a positive rep, and then was like "wait...what, is my page glitched out?"

Kind of sad that this system is disappearing, was looking forward to overcoming the two squares, I was so excited when I woke up one day and had 2 squares :3 (I know, some of you might say "that's so lame", but honestly, was pretty excited).

On a side note, in terms of a "fix" for the issue of "trolls" neg-repping people, why can't we just remove the neg-rep feature and leave it at a positive rep ability only? Deduct rep when posts get reported for "spoiling, trolling, etc."

Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure you guys have thought this through really hard and have taken a lot of things into consideration, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Happy Holidays though!

edit: looks like some others have suggested the same thing/something similar. Oops

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

Deduct rep when posts get reported for "spoiling, trolling, etc."

+

Like this line.. this could be another "consequence" other than the usual warning/ban/infraction penalties.

> Positive rep are being given by members only.
> Negative reps are for MODs as consequence.

Example:

Warnings and -20 reps > trolling, spasms, pointless post. Ouch that would really hurt..

Infractions and -50 reps > light infractions.

Banned and -100 reps > serious offense and moderate infractions

Even the "veterans will be nervous of this.. honestly I'm getting nervous just thinking if these will be approved,,,,

[Eragon]

Well, this is a welcome change. I, too, thought there were too many drawbacks in the current system. A small part of me does feel sad about the system getting scrapped but, that's to be expected - everyone(okay, most........or me, just to be safe) loves flattery
I sure hope the new system(if there's gonna be one) will more advantages than drawbacks.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

+

Like this line.. this could be another "consequence" other than the usual warning/ban/infraction penalties.

> Positive rep are being given by members only.
> Negative reps are for MODs as consequence.

Example:

Warnings and -20 reps > trolling, spasms, pointless post. Ouch that would really hurt..

Infractions and -50 reps > light infractions.

Banned and -100 reps > serious offense and moderate infractions

Even the "veterans will be nervous of this.. honestly I'm getting nervous just thinking if these will be approved,,,,

No just no: infraction and whatnot should never be mixed with how the community see people's contributions being any useful and whatnot.
Even the most "virtuous" members made some reckless mistakes and it should never be part of what they have contributed so far.

Really, there is no reason to keep the rep system, regardless if there is neg rep or not, anonymous or not. The basis of the system itself is exploitable and give little substance aside of flavor, to which arguably don't make up with the numerous drawbacks.
My own opinion is that giving a numerical value to someone contributions is simply narrowminded and hardly give a good insight of the said individual, even moreso if negrep are removed because it would lead to a complete offscale/exponential progression (such like how it is "easy" to reach 5-6 boxes depending whom you tickled their fancies nowadays).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

First I would say that I understand what I don't see, which is probably lots of moderation going on about reputation that it just seems like it's not worth it anymore.

But to us, it's something that's so...useful and convenient when it's being used right. And no, I don't want to get into a discussion on my profile page or via PM about everything. Sometimes (and that means most of the time), I just want to acknowledge a good point...without making a spam post about it.

That's a good point. One thing I see a fair bit of on boards without a reputation system is something I call "cheerleading posts".

This is when somebody makes a post purely to support another individual's post. At the extreme end of this, you'll get a post that quotes an entire long post, and then follows up with "Quoted For Truth!" and nothing else.

I don't see these sorts of cheerleading posts on Anime Suki (yes, I see posts stating agreement with another member's post, but those posts generally will also include the poster of it adding some of his or her own thoughts). My suspicion is that the rep system negates cheerleading posts since if people strongly identify with a particular post but don't feel any desire to add their own thoughts to it, they'll just posrep the post.


Personally, I think it's good to not have cheerleading posts on Anime Suki. They don't add anything other than a sort of "+1" to a post that's already there, and in the extreme case I mention, it's functionally the same as having an undeleted duplicate post.

And I think this is another point in favor of papermario13689's suggested "Like" system. It'll give people a way to express "liking" of a post without spam posting.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by sayde

I guess the only thing I'll personally miss about the rep system is how it allowed us to express a brief statement without having to make a separate post just to do it.

So my immediate wish list would be 3 things with an optional 4th request to consider:

1.) Keep neutral rep in place just so we can at least retain a way of replying to a post without having to clutter up a thread

2.) With netrual rep being the only rep we can give, remove the rep restriction (so we can comment on multiple posts from a user). Because lets face it--with only neutral rep, we won't have to worry about people abusing the system since there would no longer be any incentive for doing so.

3.) As others have already stated, reveal usernames of those who leave rep for the sake of drastically reducing the likelihood of those seeking to troll fellow forum members in private.

I like sayde's idea of keeping neutral rep as well, using VMs and PMs for the sort of messages you'd send in rep comments seems like overkill to me,it would be like using a cargo plane to send a letter.

So it wouldn't be used for any rating purposes,just for sending quick messages of approval or disapproval.

[TinyRedLeaf]

The way I dealt with anonymous negrep was to retaliate with... anonymous posrep. It's something I have been doing for at least a year or so now. (So, if any of you received massive posrep recently from an anonymous source, well, it may well have been me who gave you the cookie. )

Wait, what? How does that make sense? Well, bear with me, as I reiterate some of the salient points I strongly agree with.

(1) Reputation size has, unfortunately, acquired a chilling effect

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The problem lies on the assumption that the userbase will make an appropiate use of the reputation system, but that's hardly the case in my experience. So what a high score actually reflects is how much one is popular, which isn't the same thing as how much respectful of the rules and good mannered one is.

One can easily get bad scores for saying things that are unpopular, but not necessarily wrong. And if one lets himself be affected by it, he might end up giving up speaking his own mind honestly when he knows that what he thinks is unpopular.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Unfortunately not everyone...is...willing to express his opinion if its not aligned with the vast majority of people because the threat of negative rep actively discourages them. We can tell them all we want how meaningless such a system is in the grander scheme of a forum, but people do seem to take those little colored dots to heart.

(2) Reputation is geared towards membership seniority, and this has contributed to reputation inflation

Originally Posted by Ledgem

...[If] you're a member from 2003; do you remember when we first joined the site? It took forever to get an extra box because everyone's "rep-giving power" was limited to one or two points. Having two boxes was a big deal; three was huge. Since then there's been major point inflation, with newly-joined members easily accumulating enough "rep points" to catch up to and exceed the amount of "rep points" held by older members.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Now I understand that people want to feel like they're being "rewarded" for their efforts in building a community around here and that their status as veterans will be revoked by this change, but frankly, I am just getting a pretty elitist vibe from some of the complaints in this thread. People want to be rewarded for posting on a forum like it is some sort of videogame? This is not the point of a forum, a forum is a place to host discussions. Discussions can happen whether you've been here since the inception of AS, or if you are a user who just registered today. You are freely able to express yourself no matter how old or new you are.

(3) The reputation system encouraged rep "farming" via "circle-jerking"

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well that's exactly what is wrong. Why do you need to "farm" good rep anyway?

I don't know precisely how you get that many bars, but clearly if you have them you are popular among other groups of people or more influential people. But that doesn't mean that just because you happen to have your supporters, anyone else definitely have them.

In short, the three major points point to a simple conclusion: the reputation system is, at best, only a measurement of one's popularity, and not necessarily an indication of the "quality" of one's posts over time. And once you understood how the system works, the temptation to game it becomes very strong.

Having realised that, I asked myself why I bothered to sign the positive reps I gave out. We are not required to. It just happens to be the etiquette. However, just as people gave out negreps anonymously to avoid retaliation, conversely, I was forced to admit that I signed my posreps in the hope that, one day, others would return the favour.

Indeed, at one point, the popularity contest did get to my head, and I realised it had to stop.

Yet, I still wanted to reward people, and to do so with a clear conscience. So, I decided to award posreps anonymously. In so doing, I felt I had regained the moral high ground, in that people can no longer accuse me of double standards — I dished out negreps and posreps as and when I deemed fit, and with no fear or favour.

In the end, now that we've retired the reputation system, let us have it done away with for good. I don't see any point in introducing it again, because it'll just become another pointless popularity contest. The reputation system has at best been only a weak contributor to good behaviour (I'm embarrassed to have received posreps for careless posts that I made at random), while also fostering a great deal of grief over negreps.

We're here to have discussions. We already have moderators to manage our conversations. We don't need yet another layer of "censorship" that arguably does more harm than good.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Dammit. Now I'll never make top 10 in the reputation rankings.

[ahelo]

Oh god, this actually came true!

I never really liked the entire rep system and while I will be sad to see my positive reps deleted, I am more than happy to see this change. I never liked the entire "More Reps = People with Better Judgement" or "People with Red Squares = Trolls" perception that was created in this forum because of the Rep System (You have to admit, this was happening). The Rep System, no matter how much it made you smile (if you got a lot of greens), is very judgmental towards a lot of users, especially those that have more daring opinions. At the same time, it sort of makes new members who are getting accustomed to the forums, be more scared to post (especially if they're getting neg reps).

While the AnimeSuki Staff should think of something to replace the rep system (I don't agree with just keeping positive ones at all since that won't stop the prejudice), this is really a welcome change in my opinion.

[Ledgem]

I don't really understand why so many people claiming dislike for the system have reputation enabled. You're all aware that it was a feature that you could opt out of, right? And you know that you could "hide" the reputation comments in your user control panel, right? If it bothered you so much, why did you engage in it?

I also wonder about the statements regarding judging of users. I used it as a way to gauge forum activity and forum perception of a user. If someone had black blocks or red blocks I wasn't hostile toward them over that. Clearly I can only speak for myself in that regard, but were people really so easily swayed by the reputation? I wonder if people are scapegoating it for people being judgmental on their own.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

True, a lot of people simply disabled their rep because they were never interested in rep to begin with; others got tired of it somewhere along the way and ended up doing the same.

I blackened mine coz I can't stand getting spammed with spam comments when I post something contrarian yet I feel has to be said.