(L) Fullmetal Alchemist Manga Discussion

[Tri-ring]

I don't know if it was just a coincidence or if Arakawa-san aimed for it but 108 is the same number as a person's karma or in FFMA terminology "sin" in Buddhism.

[zebra]

^I'm pretty sure the 108 is intentional. It's the magic number in Buddhism after all.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Spoiler for 108:

[...] but you can bet there's more to her working "under him" than ranks would suggest... ^_^

And yes, she cut the hair. She's still beautiful, of course, but I'm not sure how I feel about that...

You gave me a chuckle with the "under him" remark I wouldn't be too sure, they don't have to indulge in a physical relationship to be happy. But would be good for them .

Nah, of course she's still a pretty cooky, but it made me wonder, since Arakawa loves details - why did she decide to have her cut it? Her reason for letting it grow was simple, so .. did she just feel like cutting it again? xD Or now

Spoiler for zoink:

with Winry married, she doesn't mirror the innocence she lost anymore? lol

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Spoiler:

What I loved about this, and for that, I'll always be thankful to Arakawa, is that in the end, it was always the brothers + Winry. Something the first serie lost, when they began to go on their original road. Arakaway has shown us that they didn't need to have any related blood with her to be a family. There was no "it's only Al and Me against the world" like this terrible ending we got in CoS, where they are glad to be together while the poor girl, who spent her life waiting for them, ends up all alone.

Winry was never left alone, and since she is one of the most touching character I ever saw, I'ml grateful for that. Ed and AL are million times superior in this ending, to what they were in the first anime.

[...]

BTW, As a Royai fan I was never waiting for a confession. I didn't like their scene with the apple in the move, and I prefer things end up this way. Come on, we know they are the dearest thing the other got, there is no need for pompous declaration and stuff like that.

And Hoheneim was a winner. Really. I almost cried.

Soo true. I really loved how Ed and Al ended up telling her everything, instead of shutting her out the whole time.
It was really weird in the first anime, because it did establish them as family, too. It even had this very nice lamp scene, with Winry guiding them back home. But in the end the Brothers didn't seem to care about anyone but the other. Funnily I wasn't shipping Edwin then (the implications weren't there or downplayed after all), but I was still very put down by having her put aside like uncle Freddy who never gets invited to Christmas dinner.

Spoiler for royai + Hoho:

I didn't expect a confession or a baby ever after for Roy and Riza either, I just would have liked a teeny weeny scene with them together talking - romantic implications not necessary. Well, it's alright Royai is very obvious after all. You would need to write an essay and lean out of the window a great deal if you wanted to justify them not having feelings for each other.
Still, would have been cool if Roy had told her (and/or his other subordinates) to continue to follow him in person.

Anyone else sniffing a lot of Fanfiction concerning the office in the East coming up?

And bwah Hoho T_T His monologue mirrored my feelings. I was happy for him that he could finally die, but still sad because he didn't have more times with his sons ;_; Seriously teared up.

My view about him changes so much. Found him creepy at first. And it took me a while to appreciate him as a truly good guy .. the first anime in the back of my head

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by zebra

It was really weird in the first anime, because it did establish them as family, too. It even had this very nice lamp scene, with Winry guiding them back home. But in the end the Brothers didn't seem to care about anyone but the other.

Yep I was thinking why should I care that these two fictional characters are in our world now (helping out people suffering in the war years lol) when they didn't even seem to care about the characters in their world.

I hated how they just basically ignored Winry like she was nothing to them in the end (minus that one hug from Ed).


In this series Ed and Al truly show how much they care about the characters who helped them on their journey. And with Winry they actually wanted to share their happiness. That hug was one of the best moments in the series. I don't care if its somewhat predictable. After you are with these characters for so many years you don't want plot twists you want them to be happy.

[kitten320]

Yeh, I would prefer for Riza to keep her hair long, it suited better. Wonder why she decided to cut it all of a sudden...

[Vicious108]

"Edward isn't going to sacrifice himself. He knows all too well the horror and despair of being left alone. He wouldn't subject Alphonse to that."

Haha. Pretty sure that wasn't her intent, but man did that feel like a subtle jab from Arakawa at the first anime to anyone else?

[akire_and_atem]

I think she wholeheartedly wrote that on purpose

[K_Babyy]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

"Edward isn't going to sacrifice himself. He knows all too well the horror and despair of being left alone. He wouldn't subject Alphonse to that."

Haha. Pretty sure that wasn't her intent, but man did that feel like a subtle jab from Arakawa at the first anime to anyone else?

That's exactly how I felt when I read that haha. Totally agree.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by The Small One

There is something, I don't really understand: Why did Ed draw a transmutation circle, at the time he wanted to get back Al?
Wasn't the clapping supposed to be a replacement for every possible circle? Like: Just think about it, clap and you can do it?
The same actually applies to father: He was able to transmute without a circle and without moving at all... why did he let sloth draw a circle around the country?

The obvious answer is that it doesn't apply to human transmutation. Think about it, human transmutation is meant to open an alchemist's own gate, which is his alchemy itself (Ed lost his gate, lost his alchemy).... so human transmutation is not ordinary alchemy. If you believe Truth is god, then human transmutation could even be seen as the "path" that lead to god...

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

"Edward isn't going to sacrifice himself. He knows all too well the horror and despair of being left alone. He wouldn't subject Alphonse to that."

Haha. Pretty sure that wasn't her intent, but man did that feel like a subtle jab from Arakawa at the first anime to anyone else?

Where did those words go...? They were in my mouth a second ago... Did somebody just take them out...? ^_^

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Where did those words go...? They were in my mouth a second ago... Did somebody just take them out...? ^_^

To be fair, a lot of people have been saying for a long time now that Ed would probably end up staying with his automail leg after all this has ended to remind him never to forget what has taken place.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

To be fair, a lot of people have been saying for a long time now that Ed would probably end up staying with his automail leg after all this has ended to remind him never to forget what has taken place.

I think you miss my reference. I was talking about Endless' jab at the first season, which I quoted, phrased in the most roundabout way possible of suggesting Endless was "taking the words [right] out of my mouth", as in "you said what I was thinking", as a couple other people have already stated.

I already stated my happiness about successfully guessing the physical conditions of the boys, so there's no need for me to go on about it. I never suggested I was the only one to come to that conclusion, 'cause believe me, if I had been, I probably wouldn't just be dwelling on it, I'd have built houses and hotels and started charging rent... ^_^

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

"Edward isn't going to sacrifice himself. He knows all too well the horror and despair of being left alone. He wouldn't subject Alphonse to that."

Haha. Pretty sure that wasn't her intent, but man did that feel like a subtle jab from Arakawa at the first anime to anyone else?

Ha Ha yeah I was thinking the same thing. Actually a while back I got in a "debate" with someone that the first anime should have taken out the scene where Al yelled at Ed for trying to sacrifice himself during the Scar incident since the last episode when both brothers decided to sacrifice themselves clearly missed the point.

That is always one (of many) things I love about the manga that the story says sacrifice is not the answer because you have so much more to live for. I feel two many stories go down the other route.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Ha Ha yeah I was thinking the same thing. Actually a while back I got in a "debate" with someone that the first anime should have taken out the scene where Al yelled at Ed for trying to sacrifice himself during the Scar incident since the last episode when both brothers decided to sacrifice themselves clearly missed the point.

That is always one (of many) things I love about the manga that the story says sacrifice is not the answer because you have so much more to live for. I feel two many stories go down the other route.

Seconded. My thoughts exactly. It's what I think about whenever I say the end just don't fit the series on the whole.

I gotta admit I had to grin at that when I first read the chapter, even so the scene is so dramatic. Precisely because it sounded a bit like a "Take that!" from Arakawa. Dunno if it was deliberately to kick them, but it sure underlines Ed's choice.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually a while back I got in a "debate" with someone that the first anime should have taken out the scene where Al yelled at Ed for trying to sacrifice himself during the Scar incident since the last episode when both brothers decided to sacrifice themselves clearly missed the point.

Yep, that was one of the many things the first anime ended up contradicting with their original material, resulting in massive character derailment.

Anyways, now that it’s been a day since I've read it and the final chapter has sunk in, I’d like to post some thoughts on it. Overall it might not have been a mind-blowing ending, but it was definitely an extremely enjoyable, sweet, emotionally charged and particularly fitting one.

First of all, I'd like to address the complaints that the ending was… “too happy”.

Spoiler for Long:

- I can’t help but feel that comparisons to the depressing and rather melodramatic turn the first anime series took is what’s fueling them. Which would be pretty nonsensical, because that’s comparing oranges to apples, since the two series ended up having very different and often opposite themes. While the first anime went for equivalent exchange all the way, the manga stressed how important it was to seek out new possibilities without being bound by the rules in order to make breakthroughs and evolve. First anime Ed spoke about how there were things more important than themselves and their dreams and thus they had to sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of the world’s. Now, while that might somehow seem incredibly deep and poetic to some of you, it’s not what Arakawa’s FMA, the original FMA, is about. In the manga, Al says something in his fight against Kimblee that almost seems like a direct response to first anime Ed’s speech: “Why are there only two choices? ‘Save yourself and abandon everyone else’ or ‘Give up on returning to normal and save the world’ Why are those the only options? Why can’t I choose ‘Save the world AND get our original bodies back?’” He then goes on to refute the law of equivalent exchange, which he takes further with his new theory in this final chapter. So you see, perhaps the main difference between the two series is that while in the first anime self-sacrifice is presented as the right way, in the manga we’re constantly reminded of how it is just mere self-satisfaction. That is evidenced in a great number of occasions, the most recent example being Roy’s line in this chapter: "Edward isn't going to sacrifice himself. He knows all too well the horror and despair of being left alone. He wouldn't subject Alphonse to that." Which is precisely what first anime Ed did. Now I’m not saying you HAVE to prefer the manga’s way of doing things (though you really should!), but understanding and accepting that it is a different story with different themes and messages that thus call for a different type of ending is something I’d like to expect out of anyone who considers himself/herself an FMA fan.

- That’s for the comparisons to the first anime’s ending. Now, if you disliked the manga ending on its own, again because of the fact that it was a happy one, then, well, that’s still pretty nonsensical to me. Because it’s pretty obvious that not everything that happened after Father’s defeat was what you’d call happy. For example, I doubt Ed and Al were too thrilled to learn that just when their absent father had finally returned home and they had a chance to once again feel the parental warmth they lost their bodies for, he just went and passed away immediately, and the two’d become complete orphans by the age of 15. So yeah, obviously there were sad and bitter events going on, but naturally Arakawa decided to show and focus mostly on those happier and more positive moments because, I mean, they’re what the entire goddamn series has been building up to and it’s what all of those hardships throughout those other 107 chapters have been for. The characters have spent the whole story suffering, if you still wanted to see them suffer MORE after the main conflict and struggle of their lives was all set and done, then, well, I don’t know what the hell you’ve been reading FMA for.

But enough about that... My thoughts on the chapter itself:

Spoiler for Long:

- Greed’s ultimate desire being reduced to friendships didn’t sit too well with me when it was revealed in chapter 107, but this chapter made it work. His final exchange with Ling was great and I liked his final role. Ed said in chapter 106 that Greed was the most “evolved human” out of all the homunculi, so it’s only fitting that his final decision and actions end up being pretty much the end of Father and thus vital to saving humanity.

- Father himself, as disappointing as he was as a main villain, also had a very fitting end. Definitely one of the best karmic deaths to a bad guy I’ve seen. I also liked that Truth once again got to show that seemingly sadistic side of his, just before his contrastingly much nicer moment with Ed. He might act cruel in his punishments, but that’s only because he wants people to learn from their mistakes. And when they do, as Ed did, he greets them with a much befitting nicer disposition and grants them their fair reward with no problems. Swell guy, that Truth-kun.

- Ed crying. Had we ever seen him doing it other than the night where he first gets his automail back when he was still much younger? I can’t recall. And even then he only did it because of the pain Al was going through and not his own. He had definitely been bottling it all up inside for too long, so it was bittersweet to see him finally stopping to push himself so much and let it out for once.

- I’ve seen claims that the ending was too predictable, but I find that funny because the most predicted twist (Hohenheim sacrificing himself to bring his sons’ bodies back), which people had been claiming would surely happen for ages now, was actually presented but REJECTED by the main character himself, and what I felt was a much more satisfying method was used. And one I’d never seen anyone guess or speculate that it would happen before.

- Al with his body back. I’ll admit, I got goosebumps. It’s hard for something that an entire series has been building up to to actually live up to the expectation, but this was something that totally did it. Seeing him there, holding and actually FEELING his father’s hand, was just such an incredible moment of happiness and relief that I couldn’t help but think to myself “Aaaah… they did it.” To actually feel something like that for fictional characters is, well, pretty awesome and just shows how good of a story it is.

- Seeing Dr. Knox again was something I did not expect and was pretty cool. Arakawa truly never forgets about any of her characters no matter how long it’s been. Also, seeing how Kimblee’s “Never forget the ones you’ve killed because they won’t forget you either” mantra stuck with Roy was great. It shows really well how his morals and philosophies, albeit twisted, always had some truth to them. I’ve read an Arakawa interview where she says Kimblee’s character was sort of an avatar for her “darker thoughts” or something like that, so it was only natural and nice to see this final nod to him.

- Good old Ling fully in charge of his body after so long was also great to see, and him back to his blunt teasing ways as shown with May was win. And was his decision to unite all clans under him the most fitting ending ever or what? Xing has always been the China equivalent of the FMA world, so it’s only natural that its trademark cultural concept of uniting all under heaven is what wraps up its subplot.

- Hohenheim’s death actually took me by surprise. I was almost sure that, since he ended up not sacrificing himself for anyone, he’d spend the remainder of his days as a mortal, finally getting to spend some quality time with his sons and truly getting to know what sort of people they’d grown into after his absence. And though I feel that I might’ve liked that ending a little better, the one we got was also pretty effective and touching. I also liked it particularly because it seems like he might have finally questioned his “Who Wants To Live Forever” shtick before the end.

- Scar ending up in Olivier’s hands after the battle was also quite awesome and fitting, because she’s just about the only military official who wouldn’t take the occasion to send him straight to jail. That’s right, in all her usual badassery, she straight up doesn’t give a crap about his past misgivings and just focuses on how useful he might still become. Now him working with Miles to restore the land of Ishval might be somewhat predictable, but it’s good predictable and the execution was just fine. Scar’s evolution as a human being was most fascinating I must say, and he’s definitely one of the most rounded out characters in the series. Also, he was definitely looking as badass as he’d ever been in his final panels, especially with the new funky hairdo. Sexy to the end, albeit no longer a Hobo.

- Funnily enough, this chapter gave me some The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King movie vibes. More than once I was sure the chapter had ended or was about to end, yet to my surprise it kept going on and each time I was glad it did. First I was sure it’d end with the double page of Winry hugging Ed and Al, and then with Ed and Al looking over the big wide world. Both were fantastic panels and moments too and would’ve been fine endings, but the one we got was even better.

- Al’s final scene was sweet and so very like him. Him actually taking his questioning of the law of equivalent exchange and seeking out new possibilities further was great. And just seeing him there, all human in a classy suit with a manly expression and making a badass speech… I mean it totally makes you think “Aww yeah, you go bro!” Cause if there was one FMA character who deserved to have a happy ending like that, it was him.

- And Ed and Winry’s was no less sweet of course. Best proposal ever or what? Once again, it was so fitting, because even when it comes to stuff like that, at heart Ed is still the same lovable and nerdy dork as always. And him keeping his automail leg is also quite appropriate and meaningful, because that way the woman he’s giving his life to will always be the one that makes him able to stand on his own two legs.

- The second to last page with the pictures. Fantastic. And no, not because of the pictures (not alone anyways, since they were pretty awesome on their own). But what makes it truly great is the conclusion to the initial “painful lesson” speech, from the very first page in the very first chapter, which truly embodies and perfectly puts into words what was Fullmetal Alchemist’s most prominent theme: human beings’ capacity to overcome their mistakes and hardships, learn from them, and thus better themselves, becoming stronger in the process. And as Ed put it in his speech to Envy, even if they can’t do it alone, their friends will help them. And all of that is exactly why they triumphed over the homunculi. (unfortunately I don’t think that initial speech ever made it to Brotherhood, so I’m afraid this won’t have the same impact there)

That’s about it for the good stuff (and make no mistake, it was damn good). But now, since nothing’s perfect, here's a few, mostly minor, complaints:

Spoiler for Long:

- Scar’s real name, WHERE!? Didn’t Arakawa say in one of the omakes that she’d reveal it before the end? Not cool, man. I’d even made bets with friends about what it’d be! Now I’ll never know if my Joshua guess was correct or not!

- The Pride, the final homunculus alive, scene. Well, I guess that’s no longer Pride and just Selim, but still. What I mean is I feel the homunculi, having been such a major presence and driving force throughout the series, could’ve been given a little better remembrance in the finale (yes even if they were the bad guys, lolz). Like some introspection from the heroes on the conflict the two sides shared and what the opposing side’s struggle was about in the end and whatnot. Grumman’s question about if humans and homunculi could ever understand each other was nice, but unfortunately it felt like “too little, too late.”

- And of course, my only truly significant complaint… Roy’s finale. Now, I’m no shipper, so it’s not the lack of Roy and Riza sharing a hug like Ed and Winry did that bothers me. And I also know FMA is about Ed and Al’s journey first and foremost, but… to put it in tropes terms, Roy is “the Aragorn” of FMA. Him, as well as all of the other military characters and aspects of the series, were a big part of its core and certainly important to its success. And thus I can’t help but feel they were somewhat shafted in this final chapter. In the end, the whole “a hero in violent times will only become a mass murderer when placed in a peaceful world” foreshadowing by Riza that we saw in chapter 62 never actually amounted to anything. I mean Roy’s whole story was about atonement and we never even saw him putting it in motion when he finally had the power to do it. We didn’t even get to see him or Riza (who happen to be the series’ 2nd and 3rd most popular characters) after the time skip save for the photo in the last page. Now Roy did get a lot of development and focus throughout this last arc, but still… I really felt like his character (and consequently, Riza’s) could’ve been given better closure here. It just feels like there is so much about him that Arakawa could’ve (and perhaps should’ve) shown but didn’t (maybe cause of time restraints and cause the chapter was so long already). So yeah, as a big Roy fan, I can’t help but feel a little cheated here. I wish Arakawa would write an extra epilogue story about him and the military as a whole for the final volume, but I’m not sure if that’s possible.

Well, that’s it. All in all, a great ending to a great story. I’ve been following this series for over 4 years. It was actually what got me into anime and manga in the first place and has always remained as one of my all-time favorites, so I can’t stress how hard it is to believe and accept the fact that it’s truly and finally over now. It’s gonna be tough reaching the second week of July and remembering there’s no actual new FMA chapter to look forward to this time. Oh well, I guess we still have a month of Brotherhood to fill in the void. Though I do wonder if they’ll be able to do this beautiful finale justice with the episodes they have left. Let’s hope so.

[Kirarakim]

While I like where Roy's story ended I do agree I was a bit disappointed we didn't see more of him in the epilogue. I am still sort of hoping for a gaiden in the final volume though.

Spoiler:

Although I do sort of feel that fact that he is working to change the Ishval policy is his atonement. But that being said I would have felt better about Roy's ending if we at least had a scene of Ed or Al visiting Roy and Riza in the end and hearing from them about their progress, not just a random announcement about what they are doing.

But for Scar

Spoiler:

I understand people are upset we didn't learn Scar's name especially after Arakawa promised but I think she has a right to change her mind and in this case I think she made the right decision. I honestly feel whatever his name is it would probably have been a bit anti-climatic and maybe even a something that would not live up to expectation. Maybe it is not such a bad thing to keep some things a bit mysterious. And in the end we don't really need Scar's name to understand him

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Spoiler:

Although I do sort of feel that fact that he is working to change the Ishval policy is his atonement.

True that, but even that was actually Marcoh's decision/idea and not Roy's own, so it did feel more like Marcoh's atonement than Roy's. Now Roy did agree and go through with it so he clearly did atone, but like you said, all we got was that random radio announcement, when actually seeing him do it would've been a lot more effective and moving. He was certainly an important enough character to warrant it.

As for Scar, I do agree that it was actually probably better this way. I wouldn't have complained about it hadn't Arakawa said she would reveal it. But yes she does have the right to change her mind and as I said it was a minor complaint. I mean if she'd promised we would get to see Roy as the Fuhrer or something but then didn't, then yeah I might have been truly annoyed, but eh this is just a bit of trivia. And hell maybe she'll still reveal it in bonus material for the final volume or something, like it was done with L in Death Note.

Regardless, he'll always have it better than his brother, who, poor guy, doesn't even get a nickname of his own and is simply known as "Scar's Brother" as evidenced by episode 61's eyecatch.

[zebra]

I actually liked that Scar didn't give his name. It would have been weird if he felt worthy of it again. Who knows? Might be revealed in a new databook

The thing about Roy's end is that even so it is a happy end for him, it's still bittersweet in the prospect that if he truly succeeds (somewhere in the future) - he and the other Ishval survivors might face trial. It's one of the reasons I didn't expect any Royai end to begin with, since they pave their way to their "own destruction" as Ed put it.
That Roy is the one in charge of rebuilding Ishval is very nice, but will it redeem him? To him and/or to justice?
I just get sad thinking that the pathes for a happy life are kind of locked for him. But I do ackowledge him as mass murderer as much as I love the character. Still sad. Specially since I see him more as a guy thrown into all the wrong circumstances instead of being just a simple murderer.

I know, I know, being in charge of the east makes him happy, but that's all temporary when you think about how it might end. And I don't think the chances are that high, that he forgives himself or think he has truly atoned for what he's done - no matter what he achieves reagarding Ishval.
I don't know I would have liked a pointer regarding that issue, since it seemes like a pretty major thing regarding Roy and his followers.

Edit: Endless Twilight bet me to the bonus name reveal~

[Kirarakim]

I don't know I think if Scar can be pardoned for his crimes (well okay he wasn't exactly pardoned Olivier sort of went around the law) then Roy's work in Ishval shall also in the end pardon him for his crimes. Although I agree that this doesn't mean that Roy (or Riza) will necessarily ever forgive themselves for what happened.

[Vicious108]

To be honest, I'd actually imagined this little final Roy scene in my mind, where the country would be changed into a democracy by Grumman, who would bring Mustang up to the stage during his inaugural speech and talk about how vital he was to achieving said democracy, perhaps speaking about awarding him some kind of medal of merit, only to bring up his record at Ishval afterwards. There would be an awkward silence and Grumman would hint at him being executed for mass murder or something, but then he would ask for the audience's opinion, who would all salute Roy in spite of his past mistakes because they'd recognize that he'd worked to make up for them harder than anyone else who'd fought in Ishval. Or something like that. Would've been cute IMO. >_>

But anyways, speaking about what we actually got, it was pretty cool that the series ended with Roy and Hughes both holding the same rank, even if the latter was posthumously.

[GaimeGuy]

endless, I'm surprised you forgot about the 520 cenz promise between Ed and Roy. He's not trying to pave the way for his own destruction, not anymore. Both Scar and Roy realize they have so much more to live for, and there's so much more they can do. It would be a disservice for them to give up now.

And for all intents and purposes, Grumman is a sort of lame duck leader. Roy is the one rebuilding the east, establishing trade and diplomatic relations with foreign nations, and unanexxing lands. It's just like when Roy was stationed in the east earlier in the series. Grumman loves the perks of the high positions and is more than happy to let others deal with the actual responsibilities (even though he's a sharp enough leader in his own right)

Once he retires or dies, roy will be the de facto successor, and at that point, the transition to democracy will be finally completed. Grumman's a transitional fuhrer, as the nation will head down a more peaceful path during his reign, and be ready to complete the transition to democracy shortly after Roy succeeds him.