Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kaname Madoka

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So did Madoka became a God?

While she has become what I think is as close to a god as one could get I prefer to think of her more like a Valkyrie. Welcoming fallen magical girls from the field af battle into magical girl heaven.

[roriconfan]

Hey guys, I know where Madoka went after the ending of the series. She recreated the world into the Suzumiya Haruhi setting with her as the heroine.

As for all the people who disappear, they go to Angel Beats where if they do things right, they disappear again and are reborn as people once more.

Everything comes together now.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Hey guys, I know where Madoka went after the ending of the series. She recreated the world into the Suzumiya Haruhi setting with her as the heroine.

As for all the people who disappear, they go to Angel Beats where if they do things right, they disappear again and are reborn as people once more.

Everything comes together now.

lol!

That's actually pretty clever.

[LyricalNanoha]

Originally Posted by kaigan

try this my friend from the image thread ^_^

ah yes this is it! thank you very much

as for the chronological events of episode 12, it didn't actually matter too much from my perspective, since QB already mentioned that madoka's new laws are reorganizing time and space itself.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In that state, Madoka doesn't exist anymore, because existence is a property of this plane. She is a concept, an idea, not different than what God is nowadays: she can't interact with this plane, she can't do anything, change anything, just watch.

The problem with this is that Kyubey wasn't entirely correct. While it is true that Madoka is in another existence, she isn't supposed to be remembered, have any evidence of her existence, or be able to interact outside of the plane. We see this isn't true for a few reasons:

1. Homura remembers. Homura was supposed to forget, but she was protected by her original wish. Because she existed outside of time, and her wish was specifically for Madoka, she could remember her.

2. The ribbon. This is physical evidence that Madoka existed, but it shouldn't exist. It came from a timeline that doesn't exist anymore, and should have disappeared.

3. Tatsuya draws a picture of Madoka on the ground and knows her name. How? This is an impossibility that his imagination is that good and that he happens to be the brother of someone who "never existed". Junko writes it off as a stage, an imaginary friend, but the name Madoka and the ribbons elicit emotions that shouldn't exist. She speaks of "if I had a daughter", and lets slip that she thought she saw Tatsuya playing with Madoka once (this might be my crappy subs though, gg's version).

4. Madoka speaks directly to Homura in the end. This is either Homura's imagination, or Madoka doing something impossible.

5. Consider that Madoka had to directly intervene with every girl to remove the despair and prevent each from turning into a Witch. This means that at least one "version" of her has to exist in the universe, even if she's undetectable by the Incubators (and as we've seen they are advanced but not omnipotent...so it makes sense they couldn't detect her).

In summation, while I think from a time/space perspective her wish was fulfilled instantly (since existing in all times/places means time has no meaning), I don't think she is dead or entirely removed from her former existence either.

I think the true miracle is that with her wish complete, she will be reinserted back into the universe as a human. She'll have two existences. One, the "goddess" who prevents Witches from existing for all time, and the human Madoka who exists separate from that.

To put it another way, her parting from Homura felt less like a goodbye, and more like a "I'll see you soon".

[LyricalNanoha]

Originally Posted by Solace

In summation, while I think from a time/space perspective her wish was fulfilled instantly (since existing in all times/places means time has no meaning), I don't think she is dead or entirely removed from her former existence either.

I think the true miracle is that with her wish complete, she will be reinserted back into the universe as a human. She'll have two existences. One, the "goddess" who prevents Witches from existing for all time, and the human Madoka who exists separate from that.

To put it another way, her parting from Homura felt less like a goodbye, and more like a "I'll see you soon".

No wonder Madoka (when disappearing) spoke of waiting for a true miracle to happen and "until then" she'll say goodbye to Homura for now.

The ribbon-giving is a Japanese symbolism for the red string of fate which binds Homura and Madoka together... as best friends perhaps. So maybe its symbolism didn't disappear when the universe was being organized, hence also providing another way why Homura might remember Madoka, apart from her specific wish to protect Madoka. Not like Madoka could really forsee all these happening from the start too..?

On a sidenote, the OST and the scenes really played with my emotions thoroughly. Good job to the composer as well >.<

There's gonna be a light novel adaptation, wonder what's possibly next, a 200min movie?

[roriconfan]

You are sure giving too much thought in a story about time-travel and magic. It is just mambo jumbo to me. But I can play this game too.

Nobody seems to notice how Madoka had the power to go throughout time and save every single magical girl there ever was, but not enough to just have her parents not use protection.

... or maybe she was too shy to jump in the bedroom and yell IT FEELS BETTER WITHOUT ONE !

[Solace]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

You are sure giving too much thought in a story about time-travel and magic. It is just mambo jumbo to me. But I can play this game too.

I don't discuss Madoka seriously because it's "srz bznz", I discuss it seriously because it's fun to pick peoples brains and see what they think. It's that whole discussion thing, where people toss ideas back and forth. Guess that's a difficult, if not foreign, concept for you, considering the majority of your comments on this forum amount to sarcastic remarks that could be considered trolling.

It's clear you don't like the show very much. I suggest you stop posting here before you say something stupider than usual.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Solace

I think the true miracle is that with her wish complete, she will be reinserted back into the universe as a human. She'll have two existences. One, the "goddess" who prevents Witches from existing for all time, and the human Madoka who exists separate from that.

To put it another way, her parting from Homura felt less like a goodbye, and more like a "I'll see you soon".

Huh... is her being returned to the universe after her wish is fulfilled your speculation as to what might happen, or something hinted at in the episode? There were a lot of things about the final episode I didn't understand until reading about it online, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is just one of the many things I missed. Either way, I like this idea. The ending as I originally understood it (That Madoka would definitely never see Homura again) was nice because I like bittersweet, challenging, hard-to-accept endings, but I'm certainly not going to complain if Madoka and Homura do live happily ever after.

On that note, I'm a bit confused about something. Madoka says that she'll end all witches by her own hand, past, present, and future. I thought there wouldn't be any witches in the future, though, since Madoka completely changed the system? Mami said that Madoka would be locked in an endless war for all eternity, but shouldn't the number of witches be finite since they're all confined to the past? Madoka might have a lot of work ahead of her in trying to erase about four million years' worth of witches, but it doesn't sound like a neverending job.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Solace

I don't discuss Madoka seriously because it's "srz bznz", I discuss it seriously because it's fun to pick peoples brains and see what they think. It's that whole discussion thing, where people toss ideas back and forth. Guess that's a difficult, if not foreign, concept for you, considering the majority of your comments on this forum amount to sarcastic remarks that could be considered trolling.

It's clear you don't like the show very much. I suggest you stop posting here before you say something stupider than usual.

I also think that he have totally missed the point. The time loop is just that, a plot device that explains why Madoka have so much potential instead of being The Chosen One (which is, let's admit it, having as much potential for bad, too often, or good plots).

On the subject of time loops, they are usually plot devices:

• They allows Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day to become a better man.
  
• Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  Spoiler:

  
  In Higurashi, they allows Rika to have one more shot to the happiest ending she can afford.
  
  
  
• I am mixed over the place of the time loop in Endless Eight, it is either a riddle for the cast that they need to solve or a step stone for Yuki Nagato's change in Disappearance.
  
• As for Window of Opportunity in SG-1 (my personal favorite), while we are witnessing Teal'C and O'Neil eventually carrying random acts of hilarity, the time loop is central to the plot of the episode as another crisis to solve (to get a break from the planet of the week formula).

Bottomline is that the time loop is NOT the theme of Madoka Magica. To state otherwise is foolish.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

On that note, I'm a bit confused about something. Madoka says that she'll end all witches by her own hand, past, present, and future. I thought there wouldn't be any witches in the future, though, since Madoka completely changed the system? Mami said that Madoka would be locked in an endless war for all eternity, but shouldn't the number of witches be finite since they're all confined to the past? Madoka might have a lot of work ahead of her in trying to erase about four million years' worth of witches, but it doesn't sound like a never ending job.

the context of Madoka's wish not only but any world the incubators have yet to reach that is inhabited by humans. This me that reason included future was to be ensure no witch anywhere in the universe itself would be born.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Huh... is her being returned to the universe after her wish is fulfilled your speculation as to what might happen, or something hinted at in the episode?

I don't see much hint of this but the ending is sufficiently ambigious to hold alot of possibilities

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

On that note, I'm a bit confused about something. Madoka says that she'll end all witches by her own hand, past, present, and future. I thought there wouldn't be any witches in the future, though, since Madoka completely changed the system? Mami said that Madoka would be locked in an endless war for all eternity, but shouldn't the number of witches be finite since they're all confined to the past? Madoka might have a lot of work ahead of her in trying to erase about four million years' worth of witches, but it doesn't sound like a neverending job.

From what i can see, the following happened. I'm using the original Madoka universe as a baseline for time purposes. It gets long i know

Time 0: Madoka becomes a MS and makes her wish. The universe begins restructuring as the timeline is altered by the wish.

Time 0-X: Madoka returns to the past to absorb the SG's accumulated darkness of each mahou shojo. Speculatively, i would say she also absorbs the soul of the mahou shojo. Circumstancial evidence is the animation of the soul gem dissolving fully for the green MS

Time 0+Y: Madoka completes the collection of all taint and returns to earth, shattering near the planet. Madoka from unknown time/space appears and destroys her own witch self.

It is very likely from Kyubei's willingness to move on once he gets his quota that there are similar races throughout the universe that will generate the same emotional energy. It is likely that they will also create the same side effect (witches). Hence Y is unknown but large.

Time +Y+1: A paradox occurs. Due to the paradox, the universe once again restructures. Madoka is removed from the timestream but talks to Homura before that.

However as Madoka's wish must be fufilled but Madoka does not exist due to the paradox, what remains is the effect of her wish. The shows up as the disintergration of the soul gem and vanishing of the MS.

It is highly likely that the dying MS do not physically see Madoka any more (she does not exist) unlike during Time-X but as Madoka references "meeting everyone" i would say that the MS do still meet her after death. Due to the existance of soul gems, the "soul", unlike the real world, is a confirmed force/thing so this could be possible.

Alternatively the "meeting everyone" may mean her omniscience, which is also supported by the comments she makes of knowing the past and future.

Time +Y+1+Z: Either concurrently or after leaving Homura (time is wonky under such circumstances), Madoka meets Sayaka. There are many possibilities why Sayaka does not change her fate. The one i'm partial to is that Madoka may not be able to change it. Her wish only grants her the power to give the MS a release from the despair of changing into a witch, not relieve them of the responsibility of their choices else she would have saved the rest, including the bear girl (cute bear ears)

However, as Homura demostrated with her driverless oil tanker, magical energy can be used to do more than just combat. So i would not rule out that this Madoka had mastered the ability to use the magical energy to do more than just what her wish says.

At this point Madoka says something to the point of "returning everything to nothing", it might mean that she has control over the process but it can also mean it was an effect of what she did (the paradox), not one she has control of.

Ok thats the scene supported stuff. Next is total speculation
Tetsuya's ability to see Madoka may be due to the innocence of the child and his link to Madoka. IIRC, children supposedly have a myth of being more capable of seeing "ghosts" due to said innocence and a tendency to not reject things as crazy off hand. Perhaps that is what the writer was referencing.

Homura being able to remember Madoka is already hinted at when Madoka states that she might remember her because she could follow Madoka to that place. Speculatively it might be
i) "love is all powerful" theme that allows Homura to break the rules
ii) her wish linked them together initially, creating a chain of sorts
iii) Their original fate was already interwined, so it was merely a continuation of their fate

The final witch wings of Homura might be
i) She's turning into a witch and Madoka is going to take her soul gem. Following the logic of episode 12, this seems the most likely
ii) She mastered more of her power turning her wings into a weapon itself
iii) It was the true scene. The white wings were fake. Witch Madoka was the one talking to her.

Regarding iii), i would say its not a good ending but it is not impossible.

From what the offical website said, Witch Madoka exists to absorb everyone into her dimension and creates a paradise for them. Witch Madoka enveloped the earth at one point during Madoka's initial soul gem shattering. When Madoka shot her witch self, everything went white (loved the effect by the way).

At this point of time, there are 2 possibilities. Madoka won or Witch Madoka won. The continuation seems to show that Madoka won. However because of witch Madoka's stated ability, it may all be an illusion.

Of course taking this route would mean that everything was fake from that point on. Pretty bad story telling IMO but for those who want a "everyone is fucked" ending, this possibility exists.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree with both you and Akashin on this point.

Madoka displayed emotion during that farewell with Homura. Her words to Madoka were clearly tinged with emotion.

Emotion isn't always high-strung. It can come through calmly as well.


I do not believe that Madoka lost all of what made her human. I think that she can still feel emotion, and that her memories of being a human will remain with her always.

Hope itself is an emotional thing, and Madoka is now personified Hope.

This plus the fact that if she were truly emotionless she wouldn'y have supported Homura in that final fight at the very end.

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Except the show outright disproves this idea in the later scene where God Madoka shows regret toward allowing Sayaka to suffer in the new universe, Guy Named After That One My HiME Character I Keep Writing Stories About.

But what suffering did Sayaka undergo anyway currently? Like everyone else who fell her soul still gained salvation in the end. Hell, she's now permanently with Madoka....Her being with kamijyo is impossible since she is well...dead.

To put it another way, her parting from Homura felt less like a goodbye, and more like a "I'll see you soon".

Yeah......after Homura finally dies in battle eventually...

[LyricalNanoha]

the scriptwriter (gen uro-something) and shaft sure likes to get people talking and discussing with the many interpretations of madoka thanks to all the online material i've managed to found out more abt the show too :X

about said "meeting you again", i prefer Cosmic Eagle's interpretation that after Homura gets exhausted and finally dies, Madoka would come and collect her so they'll be on the same plane of existence together again. sounds more reasonable considering how the last homura scene was presented in a grim background.


on a sidenote again, more music in case you're crazy about the OST like me
http://www.youtube.com/embed/BRH6PrmwZjs

Homura and her 6 fingers: ep 12, shaft error?

[Snork]

While she has become what I think is as close to a god as one could get I prefer to think of her more like a Valkyrie. Welcoming fallen magical girls from the field af battle into magical girl heaven.

yay, someone thinking in unison with me! Come on, we've got a petition to write to Tri-Ace, demanding an epic Madoka Profile game!

Hey guys, I know where Madoka went after the ending of the series. She recreated the world into the Suzumiya Haruhi setting with her as the heroine.

I'd understand Kyuoko reincarnating as Haruhi, but Madoka?!! That's a sheer mindscrew.

I think the true miracle is that with her wish complete, she will be reinserted back into the universe as a human.

I pray the human civilization still exist by that time... there's no guarantee she'll be reinserted into her own time period...
Actually the chances of her coming back depend on how the concept of future is dealt with in terms of her wish. If she deletes all future wishes at once, than her wish IS complete, and she remains immaterial due to to its side effects. It would take a real miracle to bail her out of there (or maybe... someone's wish?). If future happens the way it happens, just coming and becoming present, then Madoka must erase witches slowly, one magical girl at a time. If someday Incubators stop contracting humans, then MAYBE she'll be free. Implying she'll have dealt with all the despair she absorbs from the soul gems (otherwise, there will always be at least ONE witch for her to erase).

She'll have two existences. One, the "goddess" who prevents Witches from existing for all time, and the human Madoka who exists separate from that.

If she pulls it off, I'm really bullying Tri-Ace into making Madoka Profile.

On a sidenote, the OST and the scenes really played with my emotions thoroughly. Good job to the composer as well >.<

Kajiura Yuki desu. Hard to expect anything else from her.

but I'm certainly not going to complain if Madoka and Homura do live happily ever after.

It seems possible even now, but only after Homura...
Ah, with all these talks, my unintentional hype for Oriko Magica keeps rising. I'm really worried.
Btw, once I was visited by a rather grim plot bunny who whispered to me: "what if Madoka dies and Homura is left to live in a world without her?" (yep, it was BEFORE April 21) "what if Homura decides to screw it all and starts searching for a potential magical girl she could coax/bully/force into wishing for Madoka's return?" That time, I waved the idea off as rather disturbing, and it doesn't become any less disturbing now, but...

the context of Madoka's wish not only but any world the incubators have yet to reach that is inhabited by humans. This me that reason included future was to be ensure no witch anywhere in the universe itself would be born.

I suspect she didn't believe Incubators would leave Earth alone deliberately either.

Madoka from unknown time/space appears and destroys her own witch self.

And IMHO that's where all Madokami speculahs stem from. Designers giving her a cool new dress only helps.

Homura being able to remember Madoka is already hinted at when Madoka states that she might remember her because she could follow Madoka to that place. Speculatively it might be
i) "love is all powerful" theme that allows Homura to break the rules
ii) her wish linked them together initially, creating a chain of sorts
iii) Their original fate was already interwined, so it was merely a continuation of their fate

I also subscribe to the idea that Homura's soul, due to the specifics of her wish, is partly beyond time, maybe not quite unlike Madoka's. It travels through different timelines, it's able to watch what happens to Madoka's Soul Gem from afar... and wait, isn't Madoka's new world just another timeline Homura's forced to travel to? It might make sense that she keeps the memories of previous iterations as usual. The fact that Madoka isn't registered as a physical being anymore shouldn't pose that much of a problem in theory; if we consider entities like Gretchen or Octavia, Homura witnessed both timelines with them present and those with them absent, remembering them regardless. Although witches might be a bad example here, since their existence stems from that of real people, but still...

The final witch wings of Homura might be
i) She's turning into a witch and Madoka is going to take her soul gem. Following the logic of episode 12, this seems the most likely

But Madoka seems to intervene before the transformation starts... at least from what we saw in ep 12...
I think I'll rewatch the scene and try to catch a glimpse at Homura's hand where her Soul Gem is normally placed...

ii) She mastered more of her power turning her wings into a weapon itself

Huh, never occured to me until now. Sounds interesting.

iii) It was the true scene. The white wings were fake. Witch Madoka was the one talking to her.

and this one is the urobuchiest option I've heard so far. O_o

But what suffering did Sayaka undergo anyway currently? Like everyone else who fell her soul still gained salvation in the end. Hell, she's now permanently with Madoka....Her being with kamijyo is impossible since she is well...dead.

It's implied by Mami's words that she repeated her wish, but her relationship with Kamijou didn't work out again and she couldn't quite come to terms with her new self either (apparently, the Extracted'n'Zipped Soul issue remains). On the other hand, she gets to fight side by side with Mami, she's mentioned to have become friends with Kyouko and most likely being on much better terms with Homura. She dies in battle, like a hero she tried to be, and her last words/thoughts are not "I'm such a fool", but rather "huh, who is this girl in pink hovering over me? It's almost like I met her somewhere..."
Now, Madoka, wait till Kyouko meets her heroic end and arrange a separate room for these two in your domain...

Homura and her 6 fingers: ep 12, shaft error?

Look out for six-fingered people as you go for a walk... they might be adepts of Madokami Church.
Btw, was it fixed on Nico Nico later? Maybe not, since they didn't quite have a week this time, but still...

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

The final witch wings of Homura might be
i) She's turning into a witch and Madoka is going to take her soul gem. Following the logic of episode 12, this seems the most likely

my take on here is mere speculation as well. however, i don't consider homura's dark wings as witch wings or witch-like. it gives a bad and misleading impression that she will be turning into a witch.

the PMs we saw madoka "rescued" were all in the verge of witchhood. the first one (green haired) reverted to civilian clothes as her SG darkens. it strongly indicates that she exhausted her power. madoka appears, cleanses it, and the PM vanished. the next ones are still in PM outfit but seemed to be too depressed (in a hopeless and overwhelming situation) and paralyzed. still, madoka appears and cleanses their SG. the PMs were surprised and saw madoka as they look directly into her clearing their darkening SGs.

but the battle in the desert, homura seems far from losing energy. she has her outfit still, walking straight with confidence, seems to be full of hope and has her full faculties. compare this to the previous PMs madoka "rescued" earlier. of course we did not see homura's SG, her eyes, and her face. but her actions (at least to me) seemed too far from turning into a witch.

how about the wings motif and color? i read somewhere that black with tints of purple may be more appropriate for homura since it fits perfectly her color scheme.

even if those are real witch wings, there is no previous recorded instance that an active still PM could display or tap witch powers already and use that in combat.

ii) She mastered more of her power turning her wings into a weapon itself

probably. the new homura seems to be missing her original sand timer. i don't see it at all. so it must be her new powers in this new world.

iii) It was the true scene. The white wings were fake. Witch Madoka was the one talking to her.

uhm, i don't consider the white wings fake yet. the white wings were used to cushion her landing after jumping from a skyscraper. it was not used to attack. probably it's for defensive purposes. homura glows and her bow appears. then she commence to attack with bow and arrow.

in the desert battle, the dark wings were used to lift her up. as she soars and glides above, we see bursts from the ground directly below her. it was probably use to attack the white monks. the explosions that covered the screen are very similar in motif of homu's wings.

so probably the white and dark wings have different purposes. both are possessed by homu at the start of the new world. or it is also possible that the darker is an upgrade of the white.

although, witch madoka might be talking to her, i consider this unlikely. witch madoka was shot and howled as she vanished. goddess madoka said that she won't even despair. so i guess the witch madoka was probably defeated and no way present in homu's battle. besides goddess madoka was not even attacked or shot at.

additionally, as snork too said, madoka appears right before a pm turns into a witch. so even before homu could tap "witch" wings/power madoka should be there. but what homu got, was just madoka's voice, and the words were "ganbatte!" madoka seems to uplift more homu's feeling and confidence where she accepted delightfully with a smile. madoka did not appear and no cleansing happened.

so i doubt witch madoka was in total control of everything.


regarding the desert battle specifics, i can't give any details. no one probably knows what really happened. but i would assume that the final outcome (of the battle or much later still in the future) will be that homu and mado were reunited again. the soul gem and ribbon symbolize union of the two. i don't consider this as homu's death, but probably her ascension to heaven/nirvana/madoka...

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

It is very likely from Kyubei's willingness to move on once he gets his quota that there are similar races throughout the universe that will generate the same emotional energy. It is likely that they will also create the same side effect (witches). Hence Y is unknown but large.

I think QB's willingness to move on stems from the energy harvest from Madoka is enough to completely prevent entropy since she had enough energy to create and destroy universes. Another words, QB no longer need to rely on energy farm once they got the energy from Madoka.

[LyricalNanoha]

Quote:
Homura and her 6 fingers: ep 12, shaft error?
Look out for six-fingered people as you go for a walk... they might be adepts of Madokami Church.
Btw, was it fixed on Nico Nico later? Maybe not, since they didn't quite have a week this time, but still...

i have no idea if that was fixed on nico nico, since i don't know how to use that video website D: anyone's free to find out? i also doubt they fixed it there since the broadcasts were like just 2 days apart, but ""hopes and miracles do exist"", right?

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I think QB's willingness to move on stems from the energy harvest from Madoka is enough to completely prevent entropy since she had enough energy to create and destroy universes. Another words, QB no longer need to rely on energy farm once they got the energy from Madoka.

If they are following actual physics, you cannot completely stop entropy. Lets say Timeline 3's Madoka's energy is enough to create a new universe. This at best adds the life span of 1 universe to the deadline.

If the lifespan of 1 universe before heat death is X, the result would be Kyubei now has (2X - Age of universe) time left. entropy is not stopped but delayed.

Then we have to note that the value of X is actually small (!) enough to trouble the incubators to set up their farm. A value of 2X is not going to be massively helpful.

This implies that they would continue to find new energy sources to delay heat death (ignoring some duhhhh! points on actual science)

The only way they had solved the heat death problem would be to change the universal law of entropy like Madoka did for mahou shoujos

[rtgun]

I'd understand Kyuoko reincarnating as Haruhi, but Madoka?!! That's a sheer mindscrew.

She would become Mikuru then And let Kyouko become the god

There's gonna be a light novel adaptation, wonder what's possibly next, a 200min movie?

Might be interesting, but what the story's going to be? Personally I'd prefer to see some short movies or OVAs about the historical people being a mahou shoujo And I would like to see Cleopatra the most.